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bccardsfan wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:06 am What about the fact that there are trade offs in any baseball player and roster that demand choices from the manager? It is why I loathe the DH. For example, when you were a kid playing ball there was always that kid who could hit, but could barely play catch, let alone field anywhere. So they would stick him in RF because most kids are RH hitters and can't go oppo well at early ages. Sure enough, in a key spot in the game, the ball would find that kid you were hiding in RF. Any player you hide somewhere on D, well the ball will find him in a key spot.

When pitchers batted, if you had a guy like Gibby, or Waino, then you had an advantage on offense over the team whose pitcher was a terrible hitter.

A game or two ago, Oli had Pozo, or maybe it was Pages, hitting just ahead of VSII. When I see the slowest runner on the team followed by one of the fastest guys in baseball in the order I think of the possibility that Pozo will be on second and VSII on first and you are down two runs. Two outs and there is a play where VSII could score from first and somehow Pozo is so slow that VSII has to stop at third and then the inning ends and you don't get that run. So the closer you put your slowest and fastest guys on the team in the order, the more probability that sort of play happens in a key spot.

Pinch runner... you have to make a decision to pull that slow catcher from the game for the pinch runner. Then of course you lose the D and bat of that catcher. Decision for manager in a tight game. DH, same thing. Do you pull the pitcher who is rolling in a tight game for a pinch hitter if no DH? The DH takes that decision out of the game.

So my point is simply that there are all these trade offs about roster and lineup construction and in game decisions that make baseball "athletic chess". Rules like the DH and ghost runners, and your "designated runner" take a lot of strategy out of the game and turn it from chess into checkers. I am 68 and played a lot of ball and have watched MLB for well over 60 years. I prefer chess to checkers. My 2 cents BDog. Best I can do:)

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:11 am

bccardsfan wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:06 am What about the fact that there are trade offs in any baseball player and roster that demand choices from the manager? It is why I loathe the DH. For example, when you were a kid playing ball there was always that kid who could hit, but could barely play catch, let alone field anywhere. So they would stick him in RF because most kids are RH hitters and can't go oppo well at early ages. Sure enough, in a key spot in the game, the ball would find that kid you were hiding in RF. Any player you hide somewhere on D, well the ball will find him in a key spot.

When pitchers batted, if you had a guy like Gibby, or Waino, then you had an advantage on offense over the team whose pitcher was a terrible hitter.

A game or two ago, Oli had Pozo, or maybe it was Pages, hitting just ahead of VSII. When I see the slowest runner on the team followed by one of the fastest guys in baseball in the order I think of the possibility that Pozo will be on second and VSII on first and you are down two runs. Two outs and there is a play where VSII could score from first and somehow Pozo is so slow that VSII has to stop at third and then the inning ends and you don't get that run. So the closer you put your slowest and fastest guys on the team in the order, the more probability that sort of play happens in a key spot.

Pinch runner... you have to make a decision to pull that slow catcher from the game for the pinch runner. Then of course you lose the D and bat of that catcher. Decision for manager in a tight game. DH, same thing. Do you pull the pitcher who is rolling in a tight game for a pinch hitter if no DH? The DH takes that decision out of the game.

So my point is simply that there are all these trade offs about roster and lineup construction and in game decisions that make baseball "athletic chess". Rules like the DH and ghost runners, and your "designated runner" take a lot of strategy out of the game and turn it from chess into checkers. I am 68 and played a lot of ball and have watched MLB for well over 60 years. I prefer chess to checkers. My 2 cents BDog. Best I can do:)

Nice write sir. Yea crazy that I stand alone. And I too stated it to be a bad rule. Ha.
But compared to the rules you noted, I could see it if baseball wants to continue tinkering with the game.

ClassicO wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 09:45 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 09:18 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 09:02 am It's interesting that the two relatively fast catchers on our team are both moving out of the catcher position–– Contreras and Herrera. Burly and Arenado are two of the slowest people on the team, but we don't pinch run for them.
Note: I don't have speeds for Bernal or Crooks, but the former looks faster than the latter, and neither of the big boys is quick. But they are both better defensive catchers than what we have now, not to mention far better offense. Bernal is a stud.

Statcast running speeds for Cards (not equal to baserunning skill, of course):



Screenshot 2025-07-11 at 8.57.11 AM.png

Are you sure they are better than Pages defensively?

Of course not. I only know that I've watched both a lot on MiLB-TV and they are both in better shape and have great arms. Bernal threw out 34% last year and 39% this year. Crooks - threw out 33% last year and 28% this year. And they aren't statues behind the plate like Pozo and especially Pages. Crooks looks like he's gained weight since I saw him on the backfields in ST in 2023; the opposite for Bernal.

Note: Pages has thrown out 19% and 25% in his first two years. However, he was 31% in the minors. He just doesn't move laterally.
Bernal has been heralded for his defense and switch-hitting since he was 18. It's been a long time since a catcher was the #3 prospect on a team - and he should be the #2 over Mathews.

bccardsfan wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:25 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:11 am

bccardsfan wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:06 am What about the fact that there are trade offs in any baseball player and roster that demand choices from the manager? It is why I loathe the DH. For example, when you were a kid playing ball there was always that kid who could hit, but could barely play catch, let alone field anywhere. So they would stick him in RF because most kids are RH hitters and can't go oppo well at early ages. Sure enough, in a key spot in the game, the ball would find that kid you were hiding in RF. Any player you hide somewhere on D, well the ball will find him in a key spot.

When pitchers batted, if you had a guy like Gibby, or Waino, then you had an advantage on offense over the team whose pitcher was a terrible hitter.

A game or two ago, Oli had Pozo, or maybe it was Pages, hitting just ahead of VSII. When I see the slowest runner on the team followed by one of the fastest guys in baseball in the order I think of the possibility that Pozo will be on second and VSII on first and you are down two runs. Two outs and there is a play where VSII could score from first and somehow Pozo is so slow that VSII has to stop at third and then the inning ends and you don't get that run. So the closer you put your slowest and fastest guys on the team in the order, the more probability that sort of play happens in a key spot.

Pinch runner... you have to make a decision to pull that slow catcher from the game for the pinch runner. Then of course you lose the D and bat of that catcher. Decision for manager in a tight game. DH, same thing. Do you pull the pitcher who is rolling in a tight game for a pinch hitter if no DH? The DH takes that decision out of the game.

So my point is simply that there are all these trade offs about roster and lineup construction and in game decisions that make baseball "athletic chess". Rules like the DH and ghost runners, and your "designated runner" take a lot of strategy out of the game and turn it from chess into checkers. I am 68 and played a lot of ball and have watched MLB for well over 60 years. I prefer chess to checkers. My 2 cents BDog. Best I can do:)

Nice write sir. Yea crazy that I stand alone. And I too stated it to be a bad rule. Ha.
But compared to the rules you noted, I could see it if baseball wants to continue tinkering with the game.

Yes I find it sad the game is constantly being dumbed down. The only rule I like is the pitch clock and the batter having to be in the box by 8 or 10 ses or whatever it is. No more 30 secs before a pitcher delivers the ball or watching Skippy adjust his gloves for 10 secs after every pitch. I preferred watching a guy like Gibby get the ball and it was off to the plate again in about 9 secs. Keeps your D on their toes and makes for a quick game. The other rule I kind of like is the three batter minimum for a relief pitcher. It replaces one sort of strategy with another for a manager and keeps the game moving. You have to think 3 batters ahead and who your opponent might pinch hit, rather than one batter ahead in the old game. The constant parade from the pen was getting old.

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:32 am

bccardsfan wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:25 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:11 am

bccardsfan wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:06 am What about the fact that there are trade offs in any baseball player and roster that demand choices from the manager? It is why I loathe the DH. For example, when you were a kid playing ball there was always that kid who could hit, but could barely play catch, let alone field anywhere. So they would stick him in RF because most kids are RH hitters and can't go oppo well at early ages. Sure enough, in a key spot in the game, the ball would find that kid you were hiding in RF. Any player you hide somewhere on D, well the ball will find him in a key spot.

When pitchers batted, if you had a guy like Gibby, or Waino, then you had an advantage on offense over the team whose pitcher was a terrible hitter.

A game or two ago, Oli had Pozo, or maybe it was Pages, hitting just ahead of VSII. When I see the slowest runner on the team followed by one of the fastest guys in baseball in the order I think of the possibility that Pozo will be on second and VSII on first and you are down two runs. Two outs and there is a play where VSII could score from first and somehow Pozo is so slow that VSII has to stop at third and then the inning ends and you don't get that run. So the closer you put your slowest and fastest guys on the team in the order, the more probability that sort of play happens in a key spot.

Pinch runner... you have to make a decision to pull that slow catcher from the game for the pinch runner. Then of course you lose the D and bat of that catcher. Decision for manager in a tight game. DH, same thing. Do you pull the pitcher who is rolling in a tight game for a pinch hitter if no DH? The DH takes that decision out of the game.

So my point is simply that there are all these trade offs about roster and lineup construction and in game decisions that make baseball "athletic chess". Rules like the DH and ghost runners, and your "designated runner" take a lot of strategy out of the game and turn it from chess into checkers. I am 68 and played a lot of ball and have watched MLB for well over 60 years. I prefer chess to checkers. My 2 cents BDog. Best I can do:)

Nice write sir. Yea crazy that I stand alone. And I too stated it to be a bad rule. Ha.
But compared to the rules you noted, I could see it if baseball wants to continue tinkering with the game.

Yes I find it sad the game is constantly being dumbed down. The only rule I like is the pitch clock and the batter having to be in the box by 8 or 10 ses or whatever it is. No more 30 secs before a pitcher delivers the ball or watching Skippy adjust his gloves for 10 secs after every pitch. I preferred watching a guy like Gibby get the ball and it was off to the plate again in about 9 secs. Keeps your D on their toes and makes for a quick game. The other rule I kind of like is the three batter minimum for a relief pitcher. It replaces one sort of strategy with another for a manager and keeps the game moving. You have to think 3 batters ahead and who your opponent might pinch hit, rather than one batter ahead in the old game. The constant parade from the pen was getting old.

I hear ya. I don’t like the shift rule. I think I should be able to stand anywhere in legal ground, to include foul territory. If an offense refuses to adapt, why penalize the defense.

Throwing over to first takes about 15 seconds. I don’t like a two throw limit.

My idea allows for the catcher to run for himself if so desired, or get run for by a bench player. That probably wouldn’t happen every time on base, but maybe more towards end of game. The advantage is the catcher is still n the game.

JDW wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 07:23 am So offhand, can't remember many C injuries from running the bases, but maybe that's just my lack of memory on the subject.
Anyway, no, I don't think it's needed.
A C like Realmuto that can run the bases makes him better at his position than a similar defensive/offensive C's that are slower on the bases. He's a veteran and can still run very well. Many C's are slow because of how they're built and are slow from day 1.
Molina was slow, but I think he still enjoyed the challenge of running the bases. Don't take that away from them, and variations in speed help some players differentiate themselves from the competition.

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 11:23 am Let’s modify the rule. The substitution has to come after the sixth inning- from seventh on, catcher can be pinch runner for and return to the game.

This would help in hot day games, and extra inning games.

Ordinary Man wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 13:17 pm

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 11:23 am Let’s modify the rule. The substitution has to come after the sixth inning- from seventh on, catcher can be pinch runner for and return to the game.

This would help in hot day games, and extra inning games.

NO, let's not! Like someone up above said, they've dumbed the game down enough. There is practically no strategy left. And we end up with the Mathenys and the Marmols "managing".

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:26 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 09:45 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 09:18 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 09:02 am It's interesting that the two relatively fast catchers on our team are both moving out of the catcher position–– Contreras and Herrera. Burly and Arenado are two of the slowest people on the team, but we don't pinch run for them.
Note: I don't have speeds for Bernal or Crooks, but the former looks faster than the latter, and neither of the big boys is quick. But they are both better defensive catchers than what we have now, not to mention far better offense. Bernal is a stud.

Statcast running speeds for Cards (not equal to baserunning skill, of course):



Screenshot 2025-07-11 at 8.57.11 AM.png

Are you sure they are better than Pages defensively?

Of course not. I only know that I've watched both a lot on MiLB-TV and they are both in better shape and have great arms. Bernal threw out 34% last year and 39% this year. Crooks - threw out 33% last year and 28% this year. And they aren't statues behind the plate like Pozo and especially Pages. Crooks looks like he's gained weight since I saw him on the backfields in ST in 2023; the opposite for Bernal.

Note: Pages has thrown out 19% and 25% in his first two years. However, he was 31% in the minors. He just doesn't move laterally.
Bernal has been heralded for his defense and switch-hitting since he was 18. It's been a long time since a catcher was the #3 prospect on a team - and he should be the #2 over Mathews.

Pages thru out 50% base stealers his last year in AAA. 33% for all of the time in the minors

ClassicO wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 17:03 pm

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:26 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 09:45 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 09:18 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 09:02 am It's interesting that the two relatively fast catchers on our team are both moving out of the catcher position–– Contreras and Herrera. Burly and Arenado are two of the slowest people on the team, but we don't pinch run for them.
Note: I don't have speeds for Bernal or Crooks, but the former looks faster than the latter, and neither of the big boys is quick. But they are both better defensive catchers than what we have now, not to mention far better offense. Bernal is a stud.

Statcast running speeds for Cards (not equal to baserunning skill, of course):



Screenshot 2025-07-11 at 8.57.11 AM.png

Are you sure they are better than Pages defensively?

Of course not. I only know that I've watched both a lot on MiLB-TV and they are both in better shape and have great arms. Bernal threw out 34% last year and 39% this year. Crooks - threw out 33% last year and 28% this year. And they aren't statues behind the plate like Pozo and especially Pages. Crooks looks like he's gained weight since I saw him on the backfields in ST in 2023; the opposite for Bernal.

Note: Pages has thrown out 19% and 25% in his first two years. However, he was 31% in the minors. He just doesn't move laterally.
Bernal has been heralded for his defense and switch-hitting since he was 18. It's been a long time since a catcher was the #3 prospect on a team - and he should be the #2 over Mathews.

Pages thru out 50% base stealers his last year in AAA. 33% for all of the time in the minors

Ha. You mean in the 6 attempts? 3 CS. Be honest.
He went from that 50% in 2024 in 7 games at AAA to 19% last year in 75 attempts in 2024 in 66 MLB games. That's 75 attempts in only 543 innings. That's twice the attempts per inning than most of Yadi's years. Important because it means opponents like to run on him (and the pitchers).

And then there's the fact that he doesn't move. 3rd in NL in passed balls and not full-time.

Note - My typo on the 31% vs. 33% CS% in the minors. Maybe I left off the vaunted 6 attempts last year before his call-up.

PS - how many games have you watched Crooks and Bernal?

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 17:44 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 17:03 pm

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 10:26 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 09:45 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 09:18 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑11 Jul 2025 09:02 am It's interesting that the two relatively fast catchers on our team are both moving out of the catcher position–– Contreras and Herrera. Burly and Arenado are two of the slowest people on the team, but we don't pinch run for them.
Note: I don't have speeds for Bernal or Crooks, but the former looks faster than the latter, and neither of the big boys is quick. But they are both better defensive catchers than what we have now, not to mention far better offense. Bernal is a stud.

Statcast running speeds for Cards (not equal to baserunning skill, of course):



Screenshot 2025-07-11 at 8.57.11 AM.png

Are you sure they are better than Pages defensively?

Of course not. I only know that I've watched both a lot on MiLB-TV and they are both in better shape and have great arms. Bernal threw out 34% last year and 39% this year. Crooks - threw out 33% last year and 28% this year. And they aren't statues behind the plate like Pozo and especially Pages. Crooks looks like he's gained weight since I saw him on the backfields in ST in 2023; the opposite for Bernal.

Note: Pages has thrown out 19% and 25% in his first two years. However, he was 31% in the minors. He just doesn't move laterally.
Bernal has been heralded for his defense and switch-hitting since he was 18. It's been a long time since a catcher was the #3 prospect on a team - and he should be the #2 over Mathews.

Pages thru out 50% base stealers his last year in AAA. 33% for all of the time in the minors

Ha. You mean in the 6 attempts? 3 CS. Be honest.
He went from that 50% in 2024 in 7 games at AAA to 19% last year in 75 attempts in 2024 in 66 MLB games. That's 75 attempts in only 543 innings. That's twice the attempts per inning than most of Yadi's years. Important because it means opponents like to run on him (and the pitchers).

And then there's the fact that he doesn't move. 3rd in NL in passed balls and not full-time.

Note - My typo on the 31% vs. 33% CS% in the minors. Maybe I left off the vaunted 6 attempts last year before his call-up.

PS - how many games have you watched Crooks and Bernal?

Zero minor league games. I don't live anywhere near the midwest

What's Bernal CS in MLB? Crooks?

I hope one of them makes it and doesn't do that kneel on one leg (bleep).

I think Pages is tired. Glad POZO is getting some run, but he's no glove back there either