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AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 19:05 pm Curious about Helsley. Do you offer him a QO if they don't trade him?

ClassicO wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 20:10 pm

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 19:05 pm Curious about Helsley. Do you offer him a QO if they don't trade him?

It's $21M for a QO. So no.

Sell any of the soon-to-be free agents that they can. They won't win the WS and need young players, even if they have to take a chance on some prospects who may not pan out.

I can't believe anyone seriously and reasonably thinks:
1) any of the 4 FAs will be back;
[B}2) that this team is going to the playoffs, or if they do, that it's very far; or [/B]
3) Management doesn't have to make a move for the future.

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 19:24 pm Get Cody Thomas from the A's

Whatashame wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 17:25 pm Trading players on this team is going to be tough. How much of a market is there for Mikolas and Fedde. They’re healthy but that’s it. They haven’t been very good. Gray, Arenado and Contreras just don’t want to leave and the success of this team isn’t helping. Trying to trade guys like Nootbaar, Walker or Gorman would be a mistake because you would be moving guys who have minimal value now because of down years. The only guys who you could possibly trade and get something for are in the bullpen (Helsley, Maton and Matz).

The bullpen is a strength and their performance has backed that up. Helsley should be moved and it’s hard to believe he’s still here. Maton you could move and he’s not costing us much. That should give him some value. Matz is another guy, the longer we hang onto him the less we will get.

The good news is that Mikolas and Matz are on expiring contracts so they aren’t our problem after this year and that’s another 30 million in payroll leaving. Helsley and Maton are on expiring contracts but have value and we shouldn’t let them just walk. Arenado is on the back end of his contract which decreases in salary each year. Maybe if his year continues to be productive there could be a market BUT if he doesn’t want to leave we don’t have much to say about it.

Move the bullpen arms for sure but those might be the only ones we can. We have too many guys who just don’t want to leave.

cardstatman wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 20:58 pm I'm not a believer in this team being just a player or two away from greatness.

So I don't really want them to do any "all in" trades this year.

However, I'd make any trade I'm likely to win in the longer term.

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 20:19 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 20:10 pm

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 19:05 pm Curious about Helsley. Do you offer him a QO if they don't trade him?

It's $21M for a QO. So no.

Sell any of the soon-to-be free agents that they can. They won't win the WS and need young players, even if they have to take a chance on some prospects who may not pan out.

I can't believe anyone seriously and reasonably thinks:
1) any of the 4 FAs will be back;
[B}2) that this team is going to the playoffs, or if they do, that it's very far; or [/B]
3) Management doesn't have to make a move for the future.

Why not? They are 47-38, currently hold a WC spot, and are only 2.5 back in the division. And the team they are chasing have lost 7 of their last 11 series against above .500 teams. They are mainly built on a stretch of playing losing teams. The Cards are 19-10 in their last 29 road games. They are 4th in runs per game in the NL. They could use an upgrade at SP, but their top 2 SPs at least puts them in a good position to do well in the postseason. IF they could upgrade their #3/2 spot, they could really make noise in the postseason IMO.

ClassicO wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 08:17 am

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 20:19 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 20:10 pm

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 19:05 pm Curious about Helsley. Do you offer him a QO if they don't trade him?

It's $21M for a QO. So no.

Sell any of the soon-to-be free agents that they can. They won't win the WS and need young players, even if they have to take a chance on some prospects who may not pan out.

I can't believe anyone seriously and reasonably thinks:
1) any of the 4 FAs will be back;
[B}2) that this team is going to the playoffs, or if they do, that it's very far; or [/B]
3) Management doesn't have to make a move for the future.

Why not? They are 47-38, currently hold a WC spot, and are only 2.5 back in the division. And the team they are chasing have lost 7 of their last 11 series against above .500 teams. They are mainly built on a stretch of playing losing teams. The Cards are 19-10 in their last 29 road games. They are 4th in runs per game in the NL. They could use an upgrade at SP, but their top 2 SPs at least puts them in a good position to do well in the postseason. IF they could upgrade their #3/2 spot, they could really make noise in the postseason IMO.

Agree to disagree. They are 9th in runs scored in MLB and 16th in runs allowed. No team has won a WS in the past 20+ years with those numbers. The last WS ring in 2011, they were 1st in runs scored in the NL and 5th overall. Four players over .900 and 2 more over .800 OPS. They don't have one hitter who is hitting above .791 OPS. Noot and VSII can't hit and Donny's coming back to earth.

And "going for it" means keeping 4 guys who won't be back next year and getting zip in return, and they will rue the day they didn't try to help the future roster, especially moving Helsely and Matz (EF and MEM have lost any value).

I agree that the top two starters are good, but the bullpen is not (19th in WAR).

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 08:24 am

ClassicO wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 08:17 am

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 20:19 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 20:10 pm

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 19:05 pm Curious about Helsley. Do you offer him a QO if they don't trade him?

It's $21M for a QO. So no.

Sell any of the soon-to-be free agents that they can. They won't win the WS and need young players, even if they have to take a chance on some prospects who may not pan out.

I can't believe anyone seriously and reasonably thinks:
1) any of the 4 FAs will be back;
[B}2) that this team is going to the playoffs, or if they do, that it's very far; or [/B]
3) Management doesn't have to make a move for the future.

Why not? They are 47-38, currently hold a WC spot, and are only 2.5 back in the division. And the team they are chasing have lost 7 of their last 11 series against above .500 teams. They are mainly built on a stretch of playing losing teams. The Cards are 19-10 in their last 29 road games. They are 4th in runs per game in the NL. They could use an upgrade at SP, but their top 2 SPs at least puts them in a good position to do well in the postseason. IF they could upgrade their #3/2 spot, they could really make noise in the postseason IMO.

Agree to disagree. They are 9th in runs scored in MLB and 16th in runs allowed. No team has won a WS in the past 20+ years with those numbers. The last WS ring in 2011, they were 1st in runs scored in the NL and 5th overall. Four players over .900 and 2 more over .800 OPS. They don't have one hitter who is hitting above .791 OPS. Noot and VSII can't hit and Donny's coming back to earth.

And "going for it" means keeping 4 guys who won't be back next year and getting zip in return, and they will rue the day they didn't try to help the future roster, especially moving Helsely and Matz (EF and MEM have lost any value).

I agree that the top two starters are good, but the bullpen is not (19th in WAR).

fWAR has our bullpen at T-10th and 9th among SPs.

And they might not have the star power that we’d like offensively, but they are solid at basically every position. They have 8 players with at least 1 fWAR with 5 of those being 1.5+ and Pages/Pozo combine for 0.9 fWAR at catcher.

If they could add one impact player it would make a big difference.

And with the way that Matz (6.27 ERA over his last 13 appearances) and especially Mikolas and Fedde are pitching right now we’d be lucky to get anything that would help our future.

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 16:25 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 13:25 pm I said in the other thread:

Buyer

-They need to add a RP to the pen', not a big move but a necessary one

-If they could find a RHHing OFer who could actually hit, then you could get a bigger deal (J. Walker dangled?)

Seller

-I'd move mountains and see if some team would take Mikolas (even if BDWJr has to eat some salary) just for his innings eating ability so Oli can slot M. McGreevy into his slot

-I'd move Matz, he's on the downswing and that IL stint could be looming

-Fedde might bring back something of value, I'd move him if they can't find a sucker errrrrrrr GM to take Mikolas again to clear a runway for McGreevy


Of the above, the bullpen arm is the move I think they'll for sure make.

O'Brien seems to be a big add to the pen. If Granillo is not seriously hurt, I think the pen is OK. They have 6 reliable guys, Helsley, Maton, Romero, O'Brien, Leahy and Matz. Most reliable guys they have had in a long time. King is OK and Svanson may also turn out to be pretty good. If Granillo is not hurt, then this team already has a dominant pen.

They really need a TOR SP as I think you have mentioned. As of now, I think McGreevy is one of their three best pitchers and is in the playoff rotation. If they could trade Fedde and get some prospects back, then trade for Alcantara and see if he can recover his old form, move Mikolas to the pen and McGreevy to the rotation, I think the pitching is set.

Then to get a bat...

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 18:36 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 13:58 pm

JuanAgosto wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 13:54 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 13:49 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 13:30 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 13:25 pm I said in the other thread:

Buyer

-They need to add a RP to the pen', not a big move but a necessary one

-If they could find a RHHing OFer who could actually hit, then you could get a bigger deal (J. Walker dangled?)

Seller

-I'd move mountains and see if some team would take Mikolas (even if BDWJr has to eat some salary) just for his innings eating ability so Oli can slot M. McGreevy into his slot

-I'd move Matz, he's on the downswing and that IL stint could be looming

-Fedde might bring back something of value, I'd move him if they can't find a sucker errrrrrrr GM to take Mikolas again to clear a runway for McGreevy


Of the above, the bullpen arm is the move I think they'll for sure make.

It would be easier to find a market for Mikolas than to get him to waive his no trade clause.

Agreed

Abd if they did find a market for him and he refused to waive the NTC, then I'd tell him it's bullpen time or DFA.

He's been hurting the team since 2023 (4.99 ERA: 2023-Current) and he's NOT a legacy player.

No tears would be shed in Cardinals Nation if he were DFA'd.

JMO

Giving Mikolas a NTC just shows Mo's ineptitude at signing players. He's so bad that he has given inflated contracts to average to bad players. Cecil, Fowler, Leake, Miller, Holland, Gregerson, etc.

And extending Mikolas way too soon was just plain stupid.

Mo's gone in three months, hopefully takes Oli w/him!

If Oli would become his own man and stop with the idiotic Mo influenced lineups and insistence on lefty-righty matchups, I could tolerate him staying. He seems to have gotten better with player relations (at least no stories have leaked this year). And the team is more fundamentally sound and plays hard. It would be interesting to see how he could do without Mo's presence.

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 16:08 pm

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 16:02 pm This is such a tough question.

On one hand I am never one to give up when in contention. And hey, lets face it they are on a 90 game winning season and playoffs who knows? So I can't see them selling this year unless they fall flat the next few weeks. As such I see them as "tepid buyers" not sacrificing anything seriously meaningful (we hope) to make the team viable in the playoffs.

As rock said a key need on offense is a RHH OFer. Preferably a rightfielder. Like what we all hoped Walker would be. If they are serious and can get a real bat for Walker do it. However if it's a rental for Walker it better be a star. Would also need BP help.

If they do flounder and decide to sell they MUST move Fedde, Helsley for prospects. And if there is a taker with a return Nado. Flood the farm with talent because you never know which ones pan out.

Heck if there is a return move Contreras too. Getting 1Bs who can hit is easy on the open market in the off season.

i confess I think this team is better than I expected and they will probably make some minor adds at the break to contend.

I feel like the closest player to a “star” talent that could get moved would be Oneil Cruz. Honestly he’s the kind of electrifying talent we could use. 15 HR and 27 SBs in 30 attempts and only 26 years old walking at a 13% clip. I don’t know where we’d play him though. And I doubt we’d trade with Pitt.

ggnoobs wrote: ↑01 Jul 2025 09:30 am

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 16:08 pm

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 16:02 pm This is such a tough question.

On one hand I am never one to give up when in contention. And hey, lets face it they are on a 90 game winning season and playoffs who knows? So I can't see them selling this year unless they fall flat the next few weeks. As such I see them as "tepid buyers" not sacrificing anything seriously meaningful (we hope) to make the team viable in the playoffs.

As rock said a key need on offense is a RHH OFer. Preferably a rightfielder. Like what we all hoped Walker would be. If they are serious and can get a real bat for Walker do it. However if it's a rental for Walker it better be a star. Would also need BP help.

If they do flounder and decide to sell they MUST move Fedde, Helsley for prospects. And if there is a taker with a return Nado. Flood the farm with talent because you never know which ones pan out.

Heck if there is a return move Contreras too. Getting 1Bs who can hit is easy on the open market in the off season.

i confess I think this team is better than I expected and they will probably make some minor adds at the break to contend.

I feel like the closest player to a “star” talent that could get moved would be Oneil Cruz. Honestly he’s the kind of electrifying talent we could use. 15 HR and 27 SBs in 30 attempts and only 26 years old walking at a 13% clip. I don’t know where we’d play him though. And I doubt we’d trade with Pitt.

I was actually thinking that someone like Brian Reynolds would be a good get if the Pirates wanted to trade within the division. He has a really good track record and seems like a guy that is a prime "Change of Scenery" candidate. I could see him coming here and having a .900+ OPS seconds half. He's also locked up for like the next 5 years at like a 14-15 million per year which is not bad. Relatively cheap and cost controlled seems like a MO move, but how much will Chaim Bloom have a say in what happens at the deadline?

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 17:38 pm

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 16:45 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 16:20 pm

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 16:08 pm

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 16:02 pm This is such a tough question.

On one hand I am never one to give up when in contention. And hey, lets face it they are on a 90 game winning season and playoffs who knows? So I can't see them selling this year unless they fall flat the next few weeks. As such I see them as "tepid buyers" not sacrificing anything seriously meaningful (we hope) to make the team viable in the playoffs.

As rock said a key need on offense is a RHH OFer. Preferably a rightfielder. Like what we all hoped Walker would be. If they are serious and can get a real bat for Walker do it. However if it's a rental for Walker it better be a star. Would also need BP help.

If they do flounder and decide to sell they MUST move Fedde, Helsley for prospects. And if there is a taker with a return Nado. Flood the farm with talent because you never know which ones pan out.

Heck if there is a return move Contreras too. Getting 1Bs who can hit is easy on the open market in the off season.

i confess I think this team is better than I expected and they will probably make some minor adds at the break to contend.

I feel like the closest player to a “star” talent that could get moved would be Oneil Cruz. Honestly he’s the kind of electrifying talent we could use. 15 HR and 27 SBs in 30 attempts and only 26 years old walking at a 13% clip. I don’t know where we’d play him though. And I doubt we’d trade with Pitt.

We traded with Pittsburgh a few years ago when we traded Oviedo to them. Pittsburgh is going to want a lot for him. I am not sure he is the answer, he strikes out a ton, 108 so far this year and that BA of 210...and he bats LH. Super talent, I just don't think he helps now.

I suggested Rooker in another thread from the A's, RH hitter, with power, but not a good fielder. He makes more sense to me in terms of adding a RH bat. The problem is he makes the OF defense worse. But his team control for 4.5 years allows the Cards to trade him and get prospect value back in the future.

Yea the strikeouts are an issue. I do like that his chase rate is down and swing % miss is below his career norms. But I think his overall ability is something that can’t be taught, the rest could be helped by a new team and a hitting coach like Brant Brown. 96 mph EV, 22% Barrel% and 57% Hard hit rate is ridiculous. His power/speed potential and age factor just puts him on the potential superstar platform if a team could help him get there. I don’t know what the asking price would be though.

Yea Rooker would be a nice add, too. Biggest issue for me is the defense/DH likelihood and his age. I wish he were on the right side of 30.

If they are going to add at the deadline, I think they need to add a guy that adds more certainty, not a project. As much as Cruz could be great, I have a hard time getting the video out of my head of him missing the ground ball in the OF and just looking at it while making no effort to run it down at all. Not even a step...I don't see that working with the Cards. Plus, he is a minus defender in CF, while Scott is an absolute stud defender. To me, Cruz represents everything about why the Pirates never win anything. Extremely talented guy, holes in his game that are not fixed and makes some boneheaded plays and does not seem to care. That is a problem. I don't disagree on his potential level.

AZ_Cardsfan wrote: ↑30 Jun 2025 19:05 pm Curious about Helsley. Do you offer him a QO if they don't trade him?