Should Oli seriously consider Herrera as the DH?

[riff raff]

Only been suggested by a handful of us for a long time.

I’m beginning to think something is wrong with you.

You called Pages a ‘JAG’ all of spring training and made it very clear Herrera should be the starting catcher.

Here’s one thread example: viewtopic.php?p=12952214&hilit=Pages#p12952214

He said the same thing about Saggese up until a few weeks ago. Now Mo's an idiot for sending him down.
Which way is the wind blowing today...

[Shady]

Burleson's hitting drought doesn't add up. I feel the Cardinals know that. And will give him a lot of leash to get back on track. Until he does, Herrera has to be given some DH time when he returns.

Burleson is a AAAA player and it seems the FO finally realizes it. They no longer allow Oli to prioritize his PT over Gorman's. I doubt Bloom keeps him next year. He will start a game or two a week but if they are smart his leash stays retracted. He certainly isn't a comp to Carew or Votto.

"They no longer allow Oli to prioritize his PT over Gorman's". Gorman is almost as much of a delimma as Burleson is. As is Walker.

True, but unlike Burleson those two have high ceilings.

Problem is, they both have been in the basement, offensively, for too long.

Player/PAs/wRC+/OPS+
Gorman: 1,244/102/101
Walker: 754/97/95
Burleson: 1,087/94/93

If you really feel both Gorman and Walker are thriving, offensively. I'll try to find a bridge to sell you cheap. LOL

[NYCardsFan]

Burleson's hitting drought doesn't add up. I feel the Cardinals know that. And will give him a lot of leash to get back on track. Until he does, Herrera has to be given some DH time when he returns.

Burleson is a AAAA player and it seems the FO finally realizes it. They no longer allow Oli to prioritize his PT over Gorman's. I doubt Bloom keeps him next year. He will start a game or two a week but if they are smart his leash stays retracted. He certainly isn't a comp to Carew or Votto.

"They no longer allow Oli to prioritize his PT over Gorman's". Gorman is almost as much of a delimma as Burleson is. As is Walker.

True, but unlike Burleson those two have high ceilings.

Problem is, they both have been in the basement, offensively, for too long.

Player/PAs/wRC+/OPS+
Gorman: 1,244/102/101
Walker: 754/97/95
Burleson: 1,087/94/93

If you really feel both Gorman and Walker are thriving, offensively. I'll try to find a bridge to sell you cheap. LOL

Who said they were "thriving"? Link? Source? We'll wait.

[Shady]

Burleson's hitting drought doesn't add up. I feel the Cardinals know that. And will give him a lot of leash to get back on track. Until he does, Herrera has to be given some DH time when he returns.

Burleson is a AAAA player and it seems the FO finally realizes it. They no longer allow Oli to prioritize his PT over Gorman's. I doubt Bloom keeps him next year. He will start a game or two a week but if they are smart his leash stays retracted. He certainly isn't a comp to Carew or Votto.

"They no longer allow Oli to prioritize his PT over Gorman's". Gorman is almost as much of a delimma as Burleson is. As is Walker.

True, but unlike Burleson those two have high ceilings.

Problem is, they both have been in the basement, offensively, for too long.

Player/PAs/wRC+/OPS+
Gorman: 1,244/102/101
Walker: 754/97/95
Burleson: 1,087/94/93

If you really feel both Gorman and Walker are thriving, offensively. I'll try to find a bridge to sell you cheap. LOL

Who said they were "thriving"? Link? Source? We'll wait.

Just being playful. LOL But what's your point?

[JDW]

Burleson in 2022 with a 0.535 and a -0.1 bWAR
Burleson in 2023 with a 0.691 OPS and a -0.7 bWAR
Burleson in 2024 with a 0.735 OPS and a +1.2 bWAR
Burleson in 2025 with a .595 OPS and a -0.3 bWAR so far.
So a net +0.1 bWAR in his 4th MLB season. What are they waiting for, as he had a decent trade value est. this last offseason? Looks to be a mid .600's type OPS guy, sneaking into the .700's some years. That works if you're a really good CF or a catcher. Doesn't work at all for a bad defensive corner OF'er or a 1B. He needs to be a +800 OPS guy to bring any kind of consistent value to a team, and with his lack of plate discipline, it's currently hard to imagine him being able to do that.

Herrera in 2023 with a 0.760 OPS and a +0.3 bWAR
Herrera in 2024 with a .800 OPS and a +1.7 bWAR
Herrera in 2025 with a 1.506 OPS and a +0.5 bWAR so far.
So a net +2.5 bWAR in his 3rd MLB season with limited action. Looks to have a +0.800's type bat. That works regardless of position.

I'd like to see Herrera and Gorman get about 80% of the current DH opportunities, with Herrera also Catching about 30% of the time to try and keep him healthy and also be able to see how his C metrics trend.
Who do I like better between Pozo and Burleson? Easily Pozo for me, but when Herrera gets back sending Baker down makes the most sense, with Burly dealt before the deadline possibly attached with Arenado, or Fedde, or Matz, or Helsley.
All of the 3 Catchers individually bring more value to the team than Burleson imo.

[Shady]

Burleson in 2022 with a 0.535 and a -0.1 bWAR
Burleson in 2023 with a 0.691 OPS and a -0.7 bWAR
Burleson in 2024 with a 0.735 OPS and a +1.2 bWAR
Burleson in 2025 with a .595 OPS and a -0.3 bWAR so far.
So a net +0.1 bWAR in his 4th MLB season. What are they waiting for, as he had a decent trade value est. this last offseason? Looks to be a mid .600's type OPS guy, sneaking into the .700's some years. That works if you're a really good CF or a catcher. Doesn't work at all for a bad defensive corner OF'er or a 1B. He needs to be a +800 OPS guy to bring any kind of consistent value to a team, and with his lack of plate discipline, it's currently hard to imagine him being able to do that.

Herrera in 2023 with a 0.760 OPS and a +0.3 bWAR
Herrera in 2024 with a .800 OPS and a +1.7 bWAR
Herrera in 2025 with a 1.506 OPS and a +0.5 bWAR so far.
So a net +2.5 bWAR in his 3rd MLB season with limited action. Looks to have a +0.800's type bat. That works regardless of position.

I'd like to see Herrera and Gorman get about 80% of the current DH opportunities, with Herrera also Catching about 30% of the time to try and keep him healthy and also be able to see how his C metrics trend.
Who do I like better between Pozo and Burleson? Easily Pozo for me, but when Herrera gets back sending Baker down makes the most sense, with Burly dealt before the deadline possibly attached with Arenado, or Fedde, or Matz, or Helsley.
All of the 3 Catchers individually bring more value to the team than Burleson imo.

The "elephant in the room" is how much the Cardinals have liked Burleson as a hitter and teammate. It will interesting to see how long Burleson's leash remains if he doesn't produce.

[riff raff]

Burleson in 2022 with a 0.535 and a -0.1 bWAR
Burleson in 2023 with a 0.691 OPS and a -0.7 bWAR
Burleson in 2024 with a 0.735 OPS and a +1.2 bWAR
Burleson in 2025 with a .595 OPS and a -0.3 bWAR so far.
So a net +0.1 bWAR in his 4th MLB season. What are they waiting for, as he had a decent trade value est. this last offseason? Looks to be a mid .600's type OPS guy, sneaking into the .700's some years. That works if you're a really good CF or a catcher. Doesn't work at all for a bad defensive corner OF'er or a 1B. He needs to be a +800 OPS guy to bring any kind of consistent value to a team, and with his lack of plate discipline, it's currently hard to imagine him being able to do that.

Herrera in 2023 with a 0.760 OPS and a +0.3 bWAR
Herrera in 2024 with a .800 OPS and a +1.7 bWAR
Herrera in 2025 with a 1.506 OPS and a +0.5 bWAR so far.
So a net +2.5 bWAR in his 3rd MLB season with limited action. Looks to have a +0.800's type bat. That works regardless of position.

I'd like to see Herrera and Gorman get about 80% of the current DH opportunities, with Herrera also Catching about 30% of the time to try and keep him healthy and also be able to see how his C metrics trend.
Who do I like better between Pozo and Burleson? Easily Pozo for me, but when Herrera gets back sending Baker down makes the most sense, with Burly dealt before the deadline possibly attached with Arenado, or Fedde, or Matz, or Helsley.
All of the 3 Catchers individually bring more value to the team than Burleson imo.

The "elephant in the room" is how much the Cardinals have liked Burleson as a hitter and teammate. It will interesting to see how long Burleson's leash remains if he doesn't produce.

Looks to me like he's on one of those choke leashes.

[Basil Shabazz]

Burleson in 2022 with a 0.535 and a -0.1 bWAR
Burleson in 2023 with a 0.691 OPS and a -0.7 bWAR
Burleson in 2024 with a 0.735 OPS and a +1.2 bWAR
Burleson in 2025 with a .595 OPS and a -0.3 bWAR so far.
So a net +0.1 bWAR in his 4th MLB season. What are they waiting for, as he had a decent trade value est. this last offseason? Looks to be a mid .600's type OPS guy, sneaking into the .700's some years. That works if you're a really good CF or a catcher. Doesn't work at all for a bad defensive corner OF'er or a 1B. He needs to be a +800 OPS guy to bring any kind of consistent value to a team, and with his lack of plate discipline, it's currently hard to imagine him being able to do that.

Herrera in 2023 with a 0.760 OPS and a +0.3 bWAR
Herrera in 2024 with a .800 OPS and a +1.7 bWAR
Herrera in 2025 with a 1.506 OPS and a +0.5 bWAR so far.
So a net +2.5 bWAR in his 3rd MLB season with limited action. Looks to have a +0.800's type bat. That works regardless of position.

I'd like to see Herrera and Gorman get about 80% of the current DH opportunities, with Herrera also Catching about 30% of the time to try and keep him healthy and also be able to see how his C metrics trend.
Who do I like better between Pozo and Burleson? Easily Pozo for me, but when Herrera gets back sending Baker down makes the most sense, with Burly dealt before the deadline possibly attached with Arenado, or Fedde, or Matz, or Helsley.
All of the 3 Catchers individually bring more value to the team than Burleson imo.

Excellent post

[Monsieur De Treville]

Burleson's hitting drought doesn't add up. I feel the Cardinals know that. And will give him a lot of leash to get back on track. Until he does, Herrera has to be given some DH time when he returns.

I've explained it to you at least a dozen times.
It does make sense. I, as well as others, predicted it. Not by how it "feels" or how it "appears", but with solid data and logic.

Burly's leash keeps getting shorter and shorter.

[Monsieur De Treville]

Burleson's hitting drought doesn't add up. I feel the Cardinals know that. And will give him a lot of leash to get back on track. Until he does, Herrera has to be given some DH time when he returns.

Burleson is a AAAA player and it seems the FO finally realizes it. They no longer allow Oli to prioritize his PT over Gorman's. I doubt Bloom keeps him next year. He will start a game or two a week but if they are smart his leash stays retracted. He certainly isn't a comp to Carew or Votto.

"They no longer allow Oli to prioritize his PT over Gorman's". Gorman is almost as much of a delimma as Burleson is. As is Walker.

True, but unlike Burleson those two have high ceilings.

Problem is, they both have been in the basement, offensively, for too long.

Burleson: Career .699 OPS
Gorman: Career .731 OPS
Walker: Career .713 OPS

Well now you've done it!

Thrown facts & data at Ole ShadyMarsha!
You're such a nitwit, malcontent, gang-banger!!

[Monsieur De Treville]

Burleson's hitting drought doesn't add up. I feel the Cardinals know that. And will give him a lot of leash to get back on track. Until he does, Herrera has to be given some DH time when he returns.

Burleson is a AAAA player and it seems the FO finally realizes it. They no longer allow Oli to prioritize his PT over Gorman's. I doubt Bloom keeps him next year. He will start a game or two a week but if they are smart his leash stays retracted. He certainly isn't a comp to Carew or Votto.

"They no longer allow Oli to prioritize his PT over Gorman's". Gorman is almost as much of a delimma as Burleson is. As is Walker.

True, but unlike Burleson those two have high ceilings.

Problem is, they both have been in the basement, offensively, for too long.

Player/PAs/wRC+/OPS+
Gorman: 1,244/102/101
Walker: 754/97/95
Burleson: 1,087/94/93

Noooooooo!!!!!

More actual facts & data?!?!?

[Futuregm2]

Burleson in 2022 with a 0.535 and a -0.1 bWAR
Burleson in 2023 with a 0.691 OPS and a -0.7 bWAR
Burleson in 2024 with a 0.735 OPS and a +1.2 bWAR
Burleson in 2025 with a .595 OPS and a -0.3 bWAR so far.
So a net +0.1 bWAR in his 4th MLB season. What are they waiting for, as he had a decent trade value est. this last offseason? Looks to be a mid .600's type OPS guy, sneaking into the .700's some years. That works if you're a really good CF or a catcher. Doesn't work at all for a bad defensive corner OF'er or a 1B. He needs to be a +800 OPS guy to bring any kind of consistent value to a team, and with his lack of plate discipline, it's currently hard to imagine him being able to do that.

Herrera in 2023 with a 0.760 OPS and a +0.3 bWAR
Herrera in 2024 with a .800 OPS and a +1.7 bWAR
Herrera in 2025 with a 1.506 OPS and a +0.5 bWAR so far.
So a net +2.5 bWAR in his 3rd MLB season with limited action. Looks to have a +0.800's type bat. That works regardless of position.

I'd like to see Herrera and Gorman get about 80% of the current DH opportunities, with Herrera also Catching about 30% of the time to try and keep him healthy and also be able to see how his C metrics trend.
Who do I like better between Pozo and Burleson? Easily Pozo for me, but when Herrera gets back sending Baker down makes the most sense, with Burly dealt before the deadline possibly attached with Arenado, or Fedde, or Matz, or Helsley.
All of the 3 Catchers individually bring more value to the team than Burleson imo.

The "elephant in the room" is how much the Cardinals have liked Burleson as a hitter and teammate. It will interesting to see how long Burleson's leash remains if he doesn't produce.

The elephant in the room is when Burleson walks through the door.

[Melville]

Could that be the most prudent way to utilize what Herrera does best, hit? And stay away from where he is suspect. Especially, considering what the other catchers bring. As well as looking ahead to the catchers coming along in the organization.

That would require keeping Pages, Pozo, and Herrera on the active roster - which is not practical.

Why is it not practical? Send down Baker when Herrera comes back. He doesn’t bring much to the roster and is 4 for 28 over his last 34 PA. He has a career .327 SLG% now.

Already answered.
Not practical given the current roster.
You are correct - someone would need to be removed.
But that should be done with an eye on requiring Herrera to move to another position permanently (as I have long recommended).
But putting a catcher as the primary DH would require keeping 3 on the roster - which is not practical.

[Futuregm2]

Could that be the most prudent way to utilize what Herrera does best, hit? And stay away from where he is suspect. Especially, considering what the other catchers bring. As well as looking ahead to the catchers coming along in the organization.

That would require keeping Pages, Pozo, and Herrera on the active roster - which is not practical.

Why is it not practical? Send down Baker when Herrera comes back. He doesn’t bring much to the roster and is 4 for 28 over his last 34 PA. He has a career .327 SLG% now.

Already answered.
Not practical given the current roster.
You are correct - someone would need to be removed.
But that should be done with an eye on requiring Herrera to move to another position permanently (as I have long recommended).
But putting a catcher as the primary DH would require keeping 3 on the roster - which is not practical.

We already have like at least 3 DH’s on the team, so removing one of those for Herrera isn’t any different than the current roster. So again, from what we’re working with right now, it’s completely practical.

[ClassicO]

Burleson in 2022 with a 0.535 and a -0.1 bWAR
Burleson in 2023 with a 0.691 OPS and a -0.7 bWAR
Burleson in 2024 with a 0.735 OPS and a +1.2 bWAR
Burleson in 2025 with a .595 OPS and a -0.3 bWAR so far.
So a net +0.1 bWAR in his 4th MLB season. What are they waiting for, as he had a decent trade value est. this last offseason? Looks to be a mid .600's type OPS guy, sneaking into the .700's some years. That works if you're a really good CF or a catcher. Doesn't work at all for a bad defensive corner OF'er or a 1B. He needs to be a +800 OPS guy to bring any kind of consistent value to a team, and with his lack of plate discipline, it's currently hard to imagine him being able to do that.

Herrera in 2023 with a 0.760 OPS and a +0.3 bWAR
Herrera in 2024 with a .800 OPS and a +1.7 bWAR
Herrera in 2025 with a 1.506 OPS and a +0.5 bWAR so far.
So a net +2.5 bWAR in his 3rd MLB season with limited action. Looks to have a +0.800's type bat. That works regardless of position.

I'd like to see Herrera and Gorman get about 80% of the current DH opportunities, with Herrera also Catching about 30% of the time to try and keep him healthy and also be able to see how his C metrics trend.
Who do I like better between Pozo and Burleson? Easily Pozo for me, but when Herrera gets back sending Baker down makes the most sense, with Burly dealt before the deadline possibly attached with Arenado, or Fedde, or Matz, or Helsley.
All of the 3 Catchers individually bring more value to the team than Burleson imo.

Excellent post

Agree. Good research.
Only nit is that Burly may pull down trade value so attaching him to anyone may have a leech effect.

[dirtkicker]

Could that be the most prudent way to utilize what Herrera does best, hit? And stay away from where he is suspect. Especially, considering what the other catchers bring. As well as looking ahead to the catchers coming along in the organization.

That would require keeping Pages, Pozo, and Herrera on the active roster - which is not practical.

Why is it not practical? Send down Baker when Herrera comes back. He doesn’t bring much to the roster and is 4 for 28 over his last 34 PA. He has a career .327 SLG% now.

Already answered.
Not practical given the current roster.
You are correct - someone would need to be removed.
But that should be done with an eye on requiring Herrera to move to another position permanently (as I have long recommended).
But putting a catcher as the primary DH would require keeping 3 on the roster - which is not practical.

No, it wouldn't.