Poll for Cards Talk- Which poster would make the best GM

[sikeston bulldog2]

The duties of a POBO and GM are far and wide, and require years of experience in the industry. No poster is qualified.

Given decisions and results of the past decade, you may well be overestimating the difficulty of the job and overvaluing experience.
For example, how hard could it possibly be to recognize the team has not had an established, productive, reliable, all-star quality outfielder for many, many years and that it would be a good idea to acquire one?
Would you like me to provide a dozen similar examples of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Super Slo Mo?

If Moe can do it, anyone can do it. How smart do you have to be to hire MM, Schildt and Oli in succession? Actually, that kind of extreme stupid can’t be underestimated. You have to be very, very secure in your job to do something that incredibly stupid.

I may not agree with Cranny that often, but in this case, he is spot on. The complications of being a GM/POBO is immense. Yes, every mistake MO makes is scrutinized to death with the benefit of hindsight. But look at all the personnel decisions he made over the year that worked out.

Matt Holliday
Carlos Beltran
The Dotel trade in 2011
The Furcal trade in 2011
Goldschmidt
Arenado (even if the last couple of years end badly, we gave up nothing)
On this team, Romero for Sosa, Maton signing, despite the last 2 years, all the draft picks starting with 2020 are now rounding out a pretty decent starting 8. Bloom will inherit a team that is in better shape than any Cards roster since around 2015.
Pitching is weak in the system, that is partly due to injury partly due to bad drafting. But, there are a few arms that are OK.

The ability to judge not just star talent, but all the pieces required to make a good team requires a huge eye for talent, the actual pieces that are missing etc. Further, none of us have the Dewitt's sitting over our shoulder limiting the resources we would all like to spend.

I was going to let this pass, but since the thread has continued longer than I anticipated, let's circle back.
If the bar of being a quality GM is "I think Holliday, Beltran, Goldschmidt, and Arenado in their prime would be good to have on my team", then most 10 year old fans would be qualified.
But let's look at players with whom Super Slo Mo had to make his own analysis and calculation.
Wrong about Craigenter.
Wrong about Taveras.
Wrong about Heyward.
Wrong about Moss.
Wrong about Fowler.
Wrong about Leake.
Wrong about Piscotty.
Wrong about DeJong.
Wrong about Martinez.
Wrong about Flaherty.
Wrong about O'Neill.
Wrong about Bader.
Wrong about Reyes.
Wrong about Nootbaar.
Wrong about Alcantara.
Wrong about Gallen.
Wrong about Arozarena.
Mo was wrong on each and every one of these - keeping the wrong guys, acquiring the wrong guys, trading the wrong guys.
A truly amazing record of ineptitude.
And that list is far from complete.
Now, you are correct that DeWitt does indeed "look over the shoulder".
In Mo's case, DeWitt's eyes have obviously been closed.
The team would be far better off if the shoulder over which DeWitt was peering was mine (note: I was never wrong about any of the above listed players).
Zero question that I would be far, far better at the job than Super Slo Mo - as would several others here.

Is there a list of success’s?

[Cranny]

The duties of a POBO and GM are far and wide, and require years of experience in the industry. No poster is qualified.

Given decisions and results of the past decade, you may well be overestimating the difficulty of the job and overvaluing experience.
For example, how hard could it possibly be to recognize the team has not had an established, productive, reliable, all-star quality outfielder for many, many years and that it would be a good idea to acquire one?
Would you like me to provide a dozen similar examples of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Super Slo Mo?

If Moe can do it, anyone can do it. How smart do you have to be to hire MM, Schildt and Oli in succession? Actually, that kind of extreme stupid can’t be underestimated. You have to be very, very secure in your job to do something that incredibly stupid.

I may not agree with Cranny that often, but in this case, he is spot on. The complications of being a GM/POBO is immense. Yes, every mistake MO makes is scrutinized to death with the benefit of hindsight. But look at all the personnel decisions he made over the year that worked out.

Matt Holliday
Carlos Beltran
The Dotel trade in 2011
The Furcal trade in 2011
Goldschmidt
Arenado (even if the last couple of years end badly, we gave up nothing)
On this team, Romero for Sosa, Maton signing, despite the last 2 years, all the draft picks starting with 2020 are now rounding out a pretty decent starting 8. Bloom will inherit a team that is in better shape than any Cards roster since around 2015.
Pitching is weak in the system, that is partly due to injury partly due to bad drafting. But, there are a few arms that are OK.

The ability to judge not just star talent, but all the pieces required to make a good team requires a huge eye for talent, the actual pieces that are missing etc. Further, none of us have the Dewitt's sitting over our shoulder limiting the resources we would all like to spend.

I was going to let this pass, but since the thread has continued longer than I anticipated, let's circle back.
If the bar of being a quality GM is "I think Holliday, Beltran, Goldschmidt, and Arenado in their prime would be good to have on my team", then most 10 year old fans would be qualified.
But let's look at players with whom Super Slo Mo had to make his own analysis and calculation.
Wrong about Craigenter.
Wrong about Taveras.
Wrong about Heyward.
Wrong about Moss.
Wrong about Fowler.
Wrong about Leake.
Wrong about Piscotty.
Wrong about DeJong.
Wrong about Martinez.
Wrong about Flaherty.
Wrong about O'Neill.
Wrong about Bader.
Wrong about Reyes.
Wrong about Nootbaar.
Wrong about Alcantara.
Wrong about Gallen.
Wrong about Arozarena.
Mo was wrong on each and every one of these - keeping the wrong guys, acquiring the wrong guys, trading the wrong guys.
A truly amazing record of ineptitude.
And that list is far from complete.
Now, you are correct that DeWitt does indeed "look over the shoulder".
In Mo's case, DeWitt's eyes have obviously been closed.
The team would be far better off if the shoulder over which DeWitt was peering was mine (note: I was never wrong about any of the above listed players).
Zero question that I would be far, far better at the job than Super Slo Mo - as would several others here.

Really? As an example, do you know what DeJong was hitting the year before he was traded, and the year he was traded? And do you know what O’Neill was hitting this season before he went down (again). And Taveras? What a joke.

You being POBO? You don’t even know what the full job entails.

[mattmitchl44]

So why ever acquire any free agents? Why doesn't Andrew Friedman (the king Tampa model guy) do what you state? Why has he been so much more successful with the Dodgers?

Because Tampa Bay has much less ML payroll to work with. Tampa Bay can only afford to have maybe 10% of its productivity come from full market cost veterans. That puts them at a huge disadvantage even against team like the Cardinals who can have 33%, to say nothing of the big market clubs like the Dodgers who can have 70+%.

Any GM should do better with the resources of the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. The question here is how can the Cardinals do their best with the much more limited resources that they have to work with.

You're talking about "average" numbers, use your analytics to be better than average at this with guys that have a proven track record and not guys that need to be developed (which the Cardinals have always been for).

Every team's "analytics" is going to be much more accurate on veteran players with longer ML track records. Every team has access to enough data about those players to make informed decisions about how much they should offer. In 2025, you are very unlikely to find huge "market inefficiencies" when every team has a developed analytics department looking for the same.

It is much more likely to gain an "analytics" advantage over other teams when you are evaluating prospects for which there is greater uncertainty in what they will develop into.

Even if you develop those players well, you will still have to pay them more through arbitration or buying that out.

And that is what $55-$60 million of the Cardinals ML payroll should be going towards. But you have to obtain and develop those players first. You have to appropriately identify at least some high ceiling prospects that you can obtain and develop to reach their potential.

The real only true benefit to your model is if you come across Mike Trout type talent that provides huge value pre arbitration. But then you probably want (and the fans will demand a HUGE long term deal) that is against your model.

Aggressively signing young players to relative cheap long term deals which could pay off big is EXACTLY what the Cardinals should be doing more of.
 

You are going to pay either way, why not pay a little more for certainty to be competitive, instead of potentially having busts and 70 win seasons?

You don't pay "a little more" for full market cost veterans. You play a lot more for players which a higher floor but a lower ceiling. And just signing high floor/low ceiling veteran players isn't going to make you competitive with the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.

So basically you are admitting defeat and everything I have been posting from the beginning of this conversation is correct?

That, this is about money and economics. That my model is far superior, is proven to work better by even the best and the master of your model. That the GM and baseball ops should just follow the direction of the philosophy and their main focus should be to sell the product and make more money? That trying to nickel and dime your way to success is kind of a waste of time and those who believe in that really have no idea what they are posting about?

Not at all. Again, the foundation of the team has to be young cost controlled players - pre-arb, arb-eligible, and ones signed early to lower cost long term extensions. Only AFTER they rebuild that foundation should they look to add the Arenados, Grays, Goldschmidts, etc to fill the holes. You put the emphasis on having those "real pros" which should not be the emphasis.

dude give it a rest, you've made your point for anyone with enough brain cells to understand... i'm gonna have to reconsider my GM vote if you keep feeding the trolls

Huh? Isn't this exactly what Mr. DeWitt, Mr. Mo and Mr. Girch etc have done for decades?

So, if everything works out perfect in your design, how are you saving any money? You are developing real pros and you have to pay them as real pros and then on top of that paying real pros too to plug holes. How are you not just creating the 2022, 23, and 24 Cardinals? Or are you advocating more of a permanent 2025 minus Arenado, Gray, Contreras, type team? So tank and spend is your model?

It should be obvious - you only keep most of the players you develop until they are 30 or 31, before you have to give them that full market value contract that pays them into their mid-30s. Then you replace them with the next wave of cost controlled players coming up through your organization. The Cardinals can afford to keep a few of the players they develop, more than a team like Tampa Bay can, but many of them should get their full market value contract from someone else.

[sikeston bulldog2]

The duties of a POBO and GM are far and wide, and require years of experience in the industry. No poster is qualified.

Given decisions and results of the past decade, you may well be overestimating the difficulty of the job and overvaluing experience.
For example, how hard could it possibly be to recognize the team has not had an established, productive, reliable, all-star quality outfielder for many, many years and that it would be a good idea to acquire one?
Would you like me to provide a dozen similar examples of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Super Slo Mo?

If Moe can do it, anyone can do it. How smart do you have to be to hire MM, Schildt and Oli in succession? Actually, that kind of extreme stupid can’t be underestimated. You have to be very, very secure in your job to do something that incredibly stupid.

I may not agree with Cranny that often, but in this case, he is spot on. The complications of being a GM/POBO is immense. Yes, every mistake MO makes is scrutinized to death with the benefit of hindsight. But look at all the personnel decisions he made over the year that worked out.

Matt Holliday
Carlos Beltran
The Dotel trade in 2011
The Furcal trade in 2011
Goldschmidt
Arenado (even if the last couple of years end badly, we gave up nothing)
On this team, Romero for Sosa, Maton signing, despite the last 2 years, all the draft picks starting with 2020 are now rounding out a pretty decent starting 8. Bloom will inherit a team that is in better shape than any Cards roster since around 2015.
Pitching is weak in the system, that is partly due to injury partly due to bad drafting. But, there are a few arms that are OK.

The ability to judge not just star talent, but all the pieces required to make a good team requires a huge eye for talent, the actual pieces that are missing etc. Further, none of us have the Dewitt's sitting over our shoulder limiting the resources we would all like to spend.

I was going to let this pass, but since the thread has continued longer than I anticipated, let's circle back.
If the bar of being a quality GM is "I think Holliday, Beltran, Goldschmidt, and Arenado in their prime would be good to have on my team", then most 10 year old fans would be qualified.
But let's look at players with whom Super Slo Mo had to make his own analysis and calculation.
Wrong about Craigenter.
Wrong about Taveras.
Wrong about Heyward.
Wrong about Moss.
Wrong about Fowler.
Wrong about Leake.
Wrong about Piscotty.
Wrong about DeJong.
Wrong about Martinez.
Wrong about Flaherty.
Wrong about O'Neill.
Wrong about Bader.
Wrong about Reyes.
Wrong about Nootbaar.
Wrong about Alcantara.
Wrong about Gallen.
Wrong about Arozarena.
Mo was wrong on each and every one of these - keeping the wrong guys, acquiring the wrong guys, trading the wrong guys.
A truly amazing record of ineptitude.
And that list is far from complete.
Now, you are correct that DeWitt does indeed "look over the shoulder".
In Mo's case, DeWitt's eyes have obviously been closed.
The team would be far better off if the shoulder over which DeWitt was peering was mine (note: I was never wrong about any of the above listed players).
Zero question that I would be far, far better at the job than Super Slo Mo - as would several others here.

Really? As an example, do you know what DeJong was hitting the year before he was traded, and the year he was traded? And do you know what O’Neill was hitting this season before he went down (again). And Taveras? What a joke.

You being POBO? You don’t even know what the full job entails.

I will again say he is as good as his people, hence internal departments. He has his finger on each pulse. Knows all there is. ONCE the system is learned, then it’s simply- train kept rollin all night long.

[Cranny]

So why ever acquire any free agents? Why doesn't Andrew Friedman (the king Tampa model guy) do what you state? Why has he been so much more successful with the Dodgers?

Because Tampa Bay has much less ML payroll to work with. Tampa Bay can only afford to have maybe 10% of its productivity come from full market cost veterans. That puts them at a huge disadvantage even against team like the Cardinals who can have 33%, to say nothing of the big market clubs like the Dodgers who can have 70+%.

Any GM should do better with the resources of the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. The question here is how can the Cardinals do their best with the much more limited resources that they have to work with.

You're talking about "average" numbers, use your analytics to be better than average at this with guys that have a proven track record and not guys that need to be developed (which the Cardinals have always been for).

Every team's "analytics" is going to be much more accurate on veteran players with longer ML track records. Every team has access to enough data about those players to make informed decisions about how much they should offer. In 2025, you are very unlikely to find huge "market inefficiencies" when every team has a developed analytics department looking for the same.

It is much more likely to gain an "analytics" advantage over other teams when you are evaluating prospects for which there is greater uncertainty in what they will develop into.

Even if you develop those players well, you will still have to pay them more through arbitration or buying that out.

And that is what $55-$60 million of the Cardinals ML payroll should be going towards. But you have to obtain and develop those players first. You have to appropriately identify at least some high ceiling prospects that you can obtain and develop to reach their potential.

The real only true benefit to your model is if you come across Mike Trout type talent that provides huge value pre arbitration. But then you probably want (and the fans will demand a HUGE long term deal) that is against your model.

Aggressively signing young players to relative cheap long term deals which could pay off big is EXACTLY what the Cardinals should be doing more of.
 

You are going to pay either way, why not pay a little more for certainty to be competitive, instead of potentially having busts and 70 win seasons?

You don't pay "a little more" for full market cost veterans. You play a lot more for players which a higher floor but a lower ceiling. And just signing high floor/low ceiling veteran players isn't going to make you competitive with the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.

So basically you are admitting defeat and everything I have been posting from the beginning of this conversation is correct?

That, this is about money and economics. That my model is far superior, is proven to work better by even the best and the master of your model. That the GM and baseball ops should just follow the direction of the philosophy and their main focus should be to sell the product and make more money? That trying to nickel and dime your way to success is kind of a waste of time and those who believe in that really have no idea what they are posting about?

Not at all. Again, the foundation of the team has to be young cost controlled players - pre-arb, arb-eligible, and ones signed early to lower cost long term extensions. Only AFTER they rebuild that foundation should they look to add the Arenados, Grays, Goldschmidts, etc to fill the holes. You put the emphasis on having those "real pros" which should not be the emphasis.

dude give it a rest, you've made your point for anyone with enough brain cells to understand... i'm gonna have to reconsider my GM vote if you keep feeding the trolls

Huh? Isn't this exactly what Mr. DeWitt, Mr. Mo and Mr. Girch etc have done for decades?

So, if everything works out perfect in your design, how are you saving any money? You are developing real pros and you have to pay them as real pros and then on top of that paying real pros too to plug holes. How are you not just creating the 2022, 23, and 24 Cardinals? Or are you advocating more of a permanent 2025 minus Arenado, Gray, Contreras, type team? So tank and spend is your model?

It should be obvious - you only keep most of the players you develop until they are 30 or 31, before you have to give them that full market value contract that pays them into their mid-30s. Then you replace them with the next wave of cost controlled players coming up through your organization. The Cardinals can afford to keep a few of the players they develop, more than a team like Tampa Bay can, but many of them should get their full market value contract from someone else.

Exactly. If a player makes it to the majors when he’s 24, and is under control for 6 years, he can become a free agent when he’s 30. The real decision comes when you think about extending him during his arbitration years. That’s a tough call. Look at Donovan right now.

[mattmitchl44]

So why ever acquire any free agents? Why doesn't Andrew Friedman (the king Tampa model guy) do what you state? Why has he been so much more successful with the Dodgers?

Because Tampa Bay has much less ML payroll to work with. Tampa Bay can only afford to have maybe 10% of its productivity come from full market cost veterans. That puts them at a huge disadvantage even against team like the Cardinals who can have 33%, to say nothing of the big market clubs like the Dodgers who can have 70+%.

Any GM should do better with the resources of the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. The question here is how can the Cardinals do their best with the much more limited resources that they have to work with.

You're talking about "average" numbers, use your analytics to be better than average at this with guys that have a proven track record and not guys that need to be developed (which the Cardinals have always been for).

Every team's "analytics" is going to be much more accurate on veteran players with longer ML track records. Every team has access to enough data about those players to make informed decisions about how much they should offer. In 2025, you are very unlikely to find huge "market inefficiencies" when every team has a developed analytics department looking for the same.

It is much more likely to gain an "analytics" advantage over other teams when you are evaluating prospects for which there is greater uncertainty in what they will develop into.

Even if you develop those players well, you will still have to pay them more through arbitration or buying that out.

And that is what $55-$60 million of the Cardinals ML payroll should be going towards. But you have to obtain and develop those players first. You have to appropriately identify at least some high ceiling prospects that you can obtain and develop to reach their potential.

The real only true benefit to your model is if you come across Mike Trout type talent that provides huge value pre arbitration. But then you probably want (and the fans will demand a HUGE long term deal) that is against your model.

Aggressively signing young players to relative cheap long term deals which could pay off big is EXACTLY what the Cardinals should be doing more of.
 

You are going to pay either way, why not pay a little more for certainty to be competitive, instead of potentially having busts and 70 win seasons?

You don't pay "a little more" for full market cost veterans. You play a lot more for players which a higher floor but a lower ceiling. And just signing high floor/low ceiling veteran players isn't going to make you competitive with the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.

So basically you are admitting defeat and everything I have been posting from the beginning of this conversation is correct?

That, this is about money and economics. That my model is far superior, is proven to work better by even the best and the master of your model. That the GM and baseball ops should just follow the direction of the philosophy and their main focus should be to sell the product and make more money? That trying to nickel and dime your way to success is kind of a waste of time and those who believe in that really have no idea what they are posting about?

Not at all. Again, the foundation of the team has to be young cost controlled players - pre-arb, arb-eligible, and ones signed early to lower cost long term extensions. Only AFTER they rebuild that foundation should they look to add the Arenados, Grays, Goldschmidts, etc to fill the holes. You put the emphasis on having those "real pros" which should not be the emphasis.

dude give it a rest, you've made your point for anyone with enough brain cells to understand... i'm gonna have to reconsider my GM vote if you keep feeding the trolls

Huh? Isn't this exactly what Mr. DeWitt, Mr. Mo and Mr. Girch etc have done for decades?

So, if everything works out perfect in your design, how are you saving any money? You are developing real pros and you have to pay them as real pros and then on top of that paying real pros too to plug holes. How are you not just creating the 2022, 23, and 24 Cardinals? Or are you advocating more of a permanent 2025 minus Arenado, Gray, Contreras, type team? So tank and spend is your model?

It should be obvious - you only keep most of the players you develop until they are 30 or 31, before you have to give them that full market value contract that pays them into their mid-30s. Then you replace them with the next wave of cost controlled players coming up through your organization. The Cardinals can afford to keep a few of the players they develop, more than a team like Tampa Bay can, but many of them should get their full market value contract from someone else.

Exactly. If a player makes it to the majors when he’s 24, and is under control for 6 years, he can become a free agent when he’s 30. The real decision comes when you think about extending him during his arbitration years. That’s a tough call. Look at Donovan right now.

Or if a player comes up at 21 or 22, you can try to sign them to a long term extension which buys out, at a cheaper AAV, pre-arb, arb, and FA years to keep them until 30 or 31.

[WLTFE]

I see Mo-rans lap dogs are still yapping....kissing his (donkey) appears to be a full occupation!

[Goldfan]

The duties of a POBO and GM are far and wide, and require years of experience in the industry. No poster is qualified.

Given decisions and results of the past decade, you may well be overestimating the difficulty of the job and overvaluing experience.
For example, how hard could it possibly be to recognize the team has not had an established, productive, reliable, all-star quality outfielder for many, many years and that it would be a good idea to acquire one?
Would you like me to provide a dozen similar examples of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Super Slo Mo?

If Moe can do it, anyone can do it. How smart do you have to be to hire MM, Schildt and Oli in succession? Actually, that kind of extreme stupid can’t be underestimated. You have to be very, very secure in your job to do something that incredibly stupid.

I may not agree with Cranny that often, but in this case, he is spot on. The complications of being a GM/POBO is immense. Yes, every mistake MO makes is scrutinized to death with the benefit of hindsight. But look at all the personnel decisions he made over the year that worked out.

Matt Holliday
Carlos Beltran
The Dotel trade in 2011
The Furcal trade in 2011
Goldschmidt
Arenado (even if the last couple of years end badly, we gave up nothing)
On this team, Romero for Sosa, Maton signing, despite the last 2 years, all the draft picks starting with 2020 are now rounding out a pretty decent starting 8. Bloom will inherit a team that is in better shape than any Cards roster since around 2015.
Pitching is weak in the system, that is partly due to injury partly due to bad drafting. But, there are a few arms that are OK.

The ability to judge not just star talent, but all the pieces required to make a good team requires a huge eye for talent, the actual pieces that are missing etc. Further, none of us have the Dewitt's sitting over our shoulder limiting the resources we would all like to spend.

I was going to let this pass, but since the thread has continued longer than I anticipated, let's circle back.
If the bar of being a quality GM is "I think Holliday, Beltran, Goldschmidt, and Arenado in their prime would be good to have on my team", then most 10 year old fans would be qualified.
But let's look at players with whom Super Slo Mo had to make his own analysis and calculation.
Wrong about Craigenter.
Wrong about Taveras.
Wrong about Heyward.
Wrong about Moss.
Wrong about Fowler.
Wrong about Leake.
Wrong about Piscotty.
Wrong about DeJong.
Wrong about Martinez.
Wrong about Flaherty.
Wrong about O'Neill.
Wrong about Bader.
Wrong about Reyes.
Wrong about Nootbaar.
Wrong about Alcantara.
Wrong about Gallen.
Wrong about Arozarena.
Mo was wrong on each and every one of these - keeping the wrong guys, acquiring the wrong guys, trading the wrong guys.
A truly amazing record of ineptitude.
And that list is far from complete.
Now, you are correct that DeWitt does indeed "look over the shoulder".
In Mo's case, DeWitt's eyes have obviously been closed.
The team would be far better off if the shoulder over which DeWitt was peering was mine (note: I was never wrong about any of the above listed players).
Zero question that I would be far, far better at the job than Super Slo Mo - as would several others here.

Really? As an example, do you know what DeJong was hitting the year before he was traded, and the year he was traded? And do you know what O’Neill was hitting this season before he went down (again). And Taveras? What a joke.

You being POBO? You don’t even know what the full job entails.

I will again say he is as good as his people, hence internal departments. He has his finger on each pulse. Knows all there is. ONCE the system is learned, then it’s simply- train kept rollin all night long.

Mel, I didn’t see A. Miller on your list
39mil for a washed up Lefty Reliever who everyone in MLB knew was done.
One of my favorites!!

[OldRed]

I wish there was a way to conduct a poll.
The below are whom I consider the most
savvy baseball contributors here.
If I missed you, sorry.
I might have missed a few that deserve to be
on this list.

I have the following contributors:

A. Melville
B. Rockondkouie
C. Mattmitch
D. An Old Friend
E. Ecleme
F. Futuregm
G. Craviduce

I am torn between Melville
and Rockondlouie.
I'd have to go with a two headed
monster of the two.
Be a (drat) good team

No GM is any better than the owner who holds the purse strings.

[ramfandan]

I wish there was a way to conduct a poll.
The below are whom I consider the most
savvy baseball contributors here.
If I missed you, sorry.
I might have missed a few that deserve to be
on this list.

I have the following contributors:

A. Melville
B. Rockondkouie
C. Mattmitch
D. An Old Friend
E. Ecleme
F. Futuregm
G. Craviduce

I am torn between Melville
and Rockondlouie.
I'd have to go with a two headed
monster of the two.
Be a (drat) good team

No GM is any better than the owner who holds the purse strings.

Quite true,Old Red!
You and I could co- GM the Dodgers citing our combined nearly 150 years following baseball in trading for Mookie Betts , signing Ohtani, Freeman etc. if we had the $$$ to trade/ sign any high priced players available. We may receive the Super Senior Executives if the Year award.

[Ike Hammett]

So why ever acquire any free agents? Why doesn't Andrew Friedman (the king Tampa model guy) do what you state? Why has he been so much more successful with the Dodgers?

Because Tampa Bay has much less ML payroll to work with. Tampa Bay can only afford to have maybe 10% of its productivity come from full market cost veterans. That puts them at a huge disadvantage even against team like the Cardinals who can have 33%, to say nothing of the big market clubs like the Dodgers who can have 70+%.

Any GM should do better with the resources of the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. The question here is how can the Cardinals do their best with the much more limited resources that they have to work with.

You're talking about "average" numbers, use your analytics to be better than average at this with guys that have a proven track record and not guys that need to be developed (which the Cardinals have always been for).

Every team's "analytics" is going to be much more accurate on veteran players with longer ML track records. Every team has access to enough data about those players to make informed decisions about how much they should offer. In 2025, you are very unlikely to find huge "market inefficiencies" when every team has a developed analytics department looking for the same.

It is much more likely to gain an "analytics" advantage over other teams when you are evaluating prospects for which there is greater uncertainty in what they will develop into.

Even if you develop those players well, you will still have to pay them more through arbitration or buying that out.

And that is what $55-$60 million of the Cardinals ML payroll should be going towards. But you have to obtain and develop those players first. You have to appropriately identify at least some high ceiling prospects that you can obtain and develop to reach their potential.

The real only true benefit to your model is if you come across Mike Trout type talent that provides huge value pre arbitration. But then you probably want (and the fans will demand a HUGE long term deal) that is against your model.

Aggressively signing young players to relative cheap long term deals which could pay off big is EXACTLY what the Cardinals should be doing more of.
 

You are going to pay either way, why not pay a little more for certainty to be competitive, instead of potentially having busts and 70 win seasons?

You don't pay "a little more" for full market cost veterans. You play a lot more for players which a higher floor but a lower ceiling. And just signing high floor/low ceiling veteran players isn't going to make you competitive with the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.

So basically you are admitting defeat and everything I have been posting from the beginning of this conversation is correct?

That, this is about money and economics. That my model is far superior, is proven to work better by even the best and the master of your model. That the GM and baseball ops should just follow the direction of the philosophy and their main focus should be to sell the product and make more money? That trying to nickel and dime your way to success is kind of a waste of time and those who believe in that really have no idea what they are posting about?

Not at all. Again, the foundation of the team has to be young cost controlled players - pre-arb, arb-eligible, and ones signed early to lower cost long term extensions. Only AFTER they rebuild that foundation should they look to add the Arenados, Grays, Goldschmidts, etc to fill the holes. You put the emphasis on having those "real pros" which should not be the emphasis.

dude give it a rest, you've made your point for anyone with enough brain cells to understand... i'm gonna have to reconsider my GM vote if you keep feeding the trolls

Huh? Isn't this exactly what Mr. DeWitt, Mr. Mo and Mr. Girch etc have done for decades?

So, if everything works out perfect in your design, how are you saving any money? You are developing real pros and you have to pay them as real pros and then on top of that paying real pros too to plug holes. How are you not just creating the 2022, 23, and 24 Cardinals? Or are you advocating more of a permanent 2025 minus Arenado, Gray, Contreras, type team? So tank and spend is your model?

It should be obvious - you only keep most of the players you develop until they are 30 or 31, before you have to give them that full market value contract that pays them into their mid-30s. Then you replace them with the next wave of cost controlled players coming up through your organization. The Cardinals can afford to keep a few of the players they develop, more than a team like Tampa Bay can, but many of them should get their full market value contract from someone else.

It should be obvious this is what the Cards do and have done. On top of that trade good and decent prospects for real pros to save costs. You play them, you trade them, you sign them, etc. That's basic type stuff everyone knows and the Cardinals have done. Quit making this out as being so simple and your plan being perfect, that your recipe is fail proof, it's the real life tough decisions that have to be made without knowing the results before. CARDS HAVE DONE A LOT OF WINNING. The only thing you appear to be fixing is that winning culture.

[Cranny]

The duties of a POBO and GM are far and wide, and require years of experience in the industry. No poster is qualified.

Given decisions and results of the past decade, you may well be overestimating the difficulty of the job and overvaluing experience.
For example, how hard could it possibly be to recognize the team has not had an established, productive, reliable, all-star quality outfielder for many, many years and that it would be a good idea to acquire one?
Would you like me to provide a dozen similar examples of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Super Slo Mo?

If Moe can do it, anyone can do it. How smart do you have to be to hire MM, Schildt and Oli in succession? Actually, that kind of extreme stupid can’t be underestimated. You have to be very, very secure in your job to do something that incredibly stupid.

I may not agree with Cranny that often, but in this case, he is spot on. The complications of being a GM/POBO is immense. Yes, every mistake MO makes is scrutinized to death with the benefit of hindsight. But look at all the personnel decisions he made over the year that worked out.

Matt Holliday
Carlos Beltran
The Dotel trade in 2011
The Furcal trade in 2011
Goldschmidt
Arenado (even if the last couple of years end badly, we gave up nothing)
On this team, Romero for Sosa, Maton signing, despite the last 2 years, all the draft picks starting with 2020 are now rounding out a pretty decent starting 8. Bloom will inherit a team that is in better shape than any Cards roster since around 2015.
Pitching is weak in the system, that is partly due to injury partly due to bad drafting. But, there are a few arms that are OK.

The ability to judge not just star talent, but all the pieces required to make a good team requires a huge eye for talent, the actual pieces that are missing etc. Further, none of us have the Dewitt's sitting over our shoulder limiting the resources we would all like to spend.

I was going to let this pass, but since the thread has continued longer than I anticipated, let's circle back.
If the bar of being a quality GM is "I think Holliday, Beltran, Goldschmidt, and Arenado in their prime would be good to have on my team", then most 10 year old fans would be qualified.
But let's look at players with whom Super Slo Mo had to make his own analysis and calculation.
Wrong about Craigenter.
Wrong about Taveras.
Wrong about Heyward.
Wrong about Moss.
Wrong about Fowler.
Wrong about Leake.
Wrong about Piscotty.
Wrong about DeJong.
Wrong about Martinez.
Wrong about Flaherty.
Wrong about O'Neill.
Wrong about Bader.
Wrong about Reyes.
Wrong about Nootbaar.
Wrong about Alcantara.
Wrong about Gallen.
Wrong about Arozarena.
Mo was wrong on each and every one of these - keeping the wrong guys, acquiring the wrong guys, trading the wrong guys.
A truly amazing record of ineptitude.
And that list is far from complete.
Now, you are correct that DeWitt does indeed "look over the shoulder".
In Mo's case, DeWitt's eyes have obviously been closed.
The team would be far better off if the shoulder over which DeWitt was peering was mine (note: I was never wrong about any of the above listed players).
Zero question that I would be far, far better at the job than Super Slo Mo - as would several others here.

Really? As an example, do you know what DeJong was hitting the year before he was traded, and the year he was traded? And do you know what O’Neill was hitting this season before he went down (again). And Taveras? What a joke.

You being POBO? You don’t even know what the full job entails.

I will again say he is as good as his people, hence internal departments. He has his finger on each pulse. Knows all there is. ONCE the system is learned, then it’s simply- train kept rollin all night long.

Mel, I didn’t see A. Miller on your list
39mil for a washed up Lefty Reliever who everyone in MLB knew was done.
One of my favorites!!

You have a lot of those negatives, don't you Goldfan.

[Ike Hammett]

Yup, nobody here is qualified or even really knows the job or how to do it. What do you all think this is, fantasy baseball? If that was the case you run a dozen fantasy leagues and offer internships and jobs to the best performers, match them up against each other and whoever is top performer of that gets to assistant GM of scouting and development. Still not qualified to be GM and certainly not POBO. Those types of jobs go to yes men and guys with lots of rich friends. Maybe a hedge fund top dawg who can make big bucks. Because that's what this is about. Now show me how to get an $8.3 billion tV deal?

[Goldfan]

The duties of a POBO and GM are far and wide, and require years of experience in the industry. No poster is qualified.

Given decisions and results of the past decade, you may well be overestimating the difficulty of the job and overvaluing experience.
For example, how hard could it possibly be to recognize the team has not had an established, productive, reliable, all-star quality outfielder for many, many years and that it would be a good idea to acquire one?
Would you like me to provide a dozen similar examples of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Super Slo Mo?

If Moe can do it, anyone can do it. How smart do you have to be to hire MM, Schildt and Oli in succession? Actually, that kind of extreme stupid can’t be underestimated. You have to be very, very secure in your job to do something that incredibly stupid.

I may not agree with Cranny that often, but in this case, he is spot on. The complications of being a GM/POBO is immense. Yes, every mistake MO makes is scrutinized to death with the benefit of hindsight. But look at all the personnel decisions he made over the year that worked out.

Matt Holliday
Carlos Beltran
The Dotel trade in 2011
The Furcal trade in 2011
Goldschmidt
Arenado (even if the last couple of years end badly, we gave up nothing)
On this team, Romero for Sosa, Maton signing, despite the last 2 years, all the draft picks starting with 2020 are now rounding out a pretty decent starting 8. Bloom will inherit a team that is in better shape than any Cards roster since around 2015.
Pitching is weak in the system, that is partly due to injury partly due to bad drafting. But, there are a few arms that are OK.

The ability to judge not just star talent, but all the pieces required to make a good team requires a huge eye for talent, the actual pieces that are missing etc. Further, none of us have the Dewitt's sitting over our shoulder limiting the resources we would all like to spend.

I was going to let this pass, but since the thread has continued longer than I anticipated, let's circle back.
If the bar of being a quality GM is "I think Holliday, Beltran, Goldschmidt, and Arenado in their prime would be good to have on my team", then most 10 year old fans would be qualified.
But let's look at players with whom Super Slo Mo had to make his own analysis and calculation.
Wrong about Craigenter.
Wrong about Taveras.
Wrong about Heyward.
Wrong about Moss.
Wrong about Fowler.
Wrong about Leake.
Wrong about Piscotty.
Wrong about DeJong.
Wrong about Martinez.
Wrong about Flaherty.
Wrong about O'Neill.
Wrong about Bader.
Wrong about Reyes.
Wrong about Nootbaar.
Wrong about Alcantara.
Wrong about Gallen.
Wrong about Arozarena.
Mo was wrong on each and every one of these - keeping the wrong guys, acquiring the wrong guys, trading the wrong guys.
A truly amazing record of ineptitude.
And that list is far from complete.
Now, you are correct that DeWitt does indeed "look over the shoulder".
In Mo's case, DeWitt's eyes have obviously been closed.
The team would be far better off if the shoulder over which DeWitt was peering was mine (note: I was never wrong about any of the above listed players).
Zero question that I would be far, far better at the job than Super Slo Mo - as would several others here.

Really? As an example, do you know what DeJong was hitting the year before he was traded, and the year he was traded? And do you know what O’Neill was hitting this season before he went down (again). And Taveras? What a joke.

You being POBO? You don’t even know what the full job entails.

I will again say he is as good as his people, hence internal departments. He has his finger on each pulse. Knows all there is. ONCE the system is learned, then it’s simply- train kept rollin all night long.

Mel, I didn’t see A. Miller on your list
39mil for a washed up Lefty Reliever who everyone in MLB knew was done.
One of my favorites!!

You have a lot of those negatives, don't you Goldfan.

Do I make up these things or are they facts? I’ll give Mo credit for the success of 2011 and before. He should share in that, but he wasn’t the primary driver of those clubs…..AND since TLR and structural winning/process wore off sometime mid teens leaving Mo to his own incompetence he led this org downhill….
Dismissing the need for an experienced winning manager
NEVER taking the “all in” approach in years where the club had a shot
Having attachments to prospects who NEVER panned out
Signing some of the worst FA contracts
Letting the Minors go to hell
Thats his legacy

[rbirules]

mattmitch, rbi, futuregm or Ronnie Dobbs... pretty easy

Again, none. Some posters think they’re experts in running a baseball organization, but they’re not.
It takes years of experience in the industry to qualify for the job. Look at all the departments employees up and down the organization that the position is responsible for.

RBI would run circles around Moe

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but my running days are well in the rearview mirror at this point.

[rbirules]

Injuries or not, the 2006 team had 83 wins. All teams have injuries.

Yadi 129g
Edmonds 110g
Eckstein 123g

So basically your middle of the field defense all missed significant time during the season with Edmonds 30Hr, 100rbi missing from the lineup 52 games
With a pitching staff of
C. Carp
Marquis
Suppan
Weaver
Reyes
Mulder…..who only pitched half the year.

Even with all that the TEAM WON the WS, and you attempt to compare that team to recents MO teams with no major injuries who can’t get to playoffs or win a game IF they get there……

Pujols 143 games (his first time with a significant injury, and he was off to his hottest start ever)
Rolen 142 games

The 2006 team started off right where the 2004 and 2005 versions left off, dominating the league. They started to show their age (Edmonds) a bit, and weren't as healthy (injuries to Pujols, Rolen, Molina, Edmonds, Eckstein) but the underlying talent was always there. The 2022 and 2019 teams were the best Cardinals teams of the last ten years (2016-present) in terms of talent, but they didn't have it all concentrated in one roster like the 2006 team did. Maybe if the 2022 team had the 2019 version of Flaherty to front the rotation. The 2019 version was missing peak Arenado, and final encore version of Pujols that the 2022 roster had.