Poll for Cards Talk- Which poster would make the best GM

[3dender]

So why ever acquire any free agents? Why doesn't Andrew Friedman (the king Tampa model guy) do what you state? Why has he been so much more successful with the Dodgers?

Because Tampa Bay has much less ML payroll to work with. Tampa Bay can only afford to have maybe 10% of its productivity come from full market cost veterans. That puts them at a huge disadvantage even against team like the Cardinals who can have 33%, to say nothing of the big market clubs like the Dodgers who can have 70+%.

Any GM should do better with the resources of the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. The question here is how can the Cardinals do their best with the much more limited resources that they have to work with.

You're talking about "average" numbers, use your analytics to be better than average at this with guys that have a proven track record and not guys that need to be developed (which the Cardinals have always been for).

Every team's "analytics" is going to be much more accurate on veteran players with longer ML track records. Every team has access to enough data about those players to make informed decisions about how much they should offer. In 2025, you are very unlikely to find huge "market inefficiencies" when every team has a developed analytics department looking for the same.

It is much more likely to gain an "analytics" advantage over other teams when you are evaluating prospects for which there is greater uncertainty in what they will develop into.

Even if you develop those players well, you will still have to pay them more through arbitration or buying that out.

And that is what $55-$60 million of the Cardinals ML payroll should be going towards. But you have to obtain and develop those players first. You have to appropriately identify at least some high ceiling prospects that you can obtain and develop to reach their potential.

The real only true benefit to your model is if you come across Mike Trout type talent that provides huge value pre arbitration. But then you probably want (and the fans will demand a HUGE long term deal) that is against your model.

Aggressively signing young players to relative cheap long term deals which could pay off big is EXACTLY what the Cardinals should be doing more of.
 

You are going to pay either way, why not pay a little more for certainty to be competitive, instead of potentially having busts and 70 win seasons?

You don't pay "a little more" for full market cost veterans. You play a lot more for players which a higher floor but a lower ceiling. And just signing high floor/low ceiling veteran players isn't going to make you competitive with the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.

So basically you are admitting defeat and everything I have been posting from the beginning of this conversation is correct?

That, this is about money and economics. That my model is far superior, is proven to work better by even the best and the master of your model. That the GM and baseball ops should just follow the direction of the philosophy and their main focus should be to sell the product and make more money? That trying to nickel and dime your way to success is kind of a waste of time and those who believe in that really have no idea what they are posting about?

Not at all. Again, the foundation of the team has to be young cost controlled players - pre-arb, arb-eligible, and ones signed early to lower cost long term extensions. Only AFTER they rebuild that foundation should they look to add the Arenados, Grays, Goldschmidts, etc to fill the holes. You put the emphasis on having those "real pros" which should not be the emphasis.

dude give it a rest, you've made your point for anyone with enough brain cells to understand... i'm gonna have to reconsider my GM vote if you keep feeding the trolls

[thetank2]

William Walsingham Iii posted on here for a number of years. He was likely related to a former GM.

[mattmitchl44]

So why ever acquire any free agents? Why doesn't Andrew Friedman (the king Tampa model guy) do what you state? Why has he been so much more successful with the Dodgers?

Because Tampa Bay has much less ML payroll to work with. Tampa Bay can only afford to have maybe 10% of its productivity come from full market cost veterans. That puts them at a huge disadvantage even against team like the Cardinals who can have 33%, to say nothing of the big market clubs like the Dodgers who can have 70+%.

Any GM should do better with the resources of the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. The question here is how can the Cardinals do their best with the much more limited resources that they have to work with.

You're talking about "average" numbers, use your analytics to be better than average at this with guys that have a proven track record and not guys that need to be developed (which the Cardinals have always been for).

Every team's "analytics" is going to be much more accurate on veteran players with longer ML track records. Every team has access to enough data about those players to make informed decisions about how much they should offer. In 2025, you are very unlikely to find huge "market inefficiencies" when every team has a developed analytics department looking for the same.

It is much more likely to gain an "analytics" advantage over other teams when you are evaluating prospects for which there is greater uncertainty in what they will develop into.

Even if you develop those players well, you will still have to pay them more through arbitration or buying that out.

And that is what $55-$60 million of the Cardinals ML payroll should be going towards. But you have to obtain and develop those players first. You have to appropriately identify at least some high ceiling prospects that you can obtain and develop to reach their potential.

The real only true benefit to your model is if you come across Mike Trout type talent that provides huge value pre arbitration. But then you probably want (and the fans will demand a HUGE long term deal) that is against your model.

Aggressively signing young players to relative cheap long term deals which could pay off big is EXACTLY what the Cardinals should be doing more of.
 

You are going to pay either way, why not pay a little more for certainty to be competitive, instead of potentially having busts and 70 win seasons?

You don't pay "a little more" for full market cost veterans. You play a lot more for players which a higher floor but a lower ceiling. And just signing high floor/low ceiling veteran players isn't going to make you competitive with the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.

So basically you are admitting defeat and everything I have been posting from the beginning of this conversation is correct?

That, this is about money and economics. That my model is far superior, is proven to work better by even the best and the master of your model. That the GM and baseball ops should just follow the direction of the philosophy and their main focus should be to sell the product and make more money? That trying to nickel and dime your way to success is kind of a waste of time and those who believe in that really have no idea what they are posting about?

Not at all. Again, the foundation of the team has to be young cost controlled players - pre-arb, arb-eligible, and ones signed early to lower cost long term extensions. Only AFTER they rebuild that foundation should they look to add the Arenados, Grays, Goldschmidts, etc to fill the holes. You put the emphasis on having those "real pros" which should not be the emphasis.

dude give it a rest, you've made your point for anyone with enough brain cells to understand... i'm gonna have to reconsider my GM vote if you keep feeding the trolls

Fair point.

[Alex Reyes Cy Young]

mattmitch, rbi, futuregm or Ronnie Dobbs... pretty easy

Again, none. Some posters think they’re experts in running a baseball organization, but they’re not.
It takes years of experience in the industry to qualify for the job. Look at all the departments employees up and down the organization that the position is responsible for.

RBI would run circles around Moe

[Alex Reyes Cy Young]

Any poster who didn't advocate for signing Harper when he became a FA is automatically disqualified.

Any poster who ever dreamed STL had any interest or intention in signing Harper is automatically disqualified.
Being delusional is not a suitable attribute for a GM.

Works for Moe.

[Goldfan]

Injuries or not, the 2006 team had 83 wins. All teams have injuries.

Yadi 129g
Edmonds 110g
Eckstein 123g

So basically your middle of the field defense all missed significant time during the season with Edmonds 30Hr, 100rbi missing from the lineup 52 games
With a pitching staff of
C. Carp
Marquis
Suppan
Weaver
Reyes
Mulder…..who only pitched half the year.

Even with all that the TEAM WON the WS, and you attempt to compare that team to recents MO teams with no major injuries who can’t get to playoffs or win a game IF they get there……

[sikeston bulldog2]

mattmitch, rbi, futuregm or Ronnie Dobbs... pretty easy

Again, none. Some posters think they’re experts in running a baseball organization, but they’re not.
It takes years of experience in the industry to qualify for the job. Look at all the departments employees up and down the organization that the position is responsible for.

RBI would run circles around Moe

Yes. It seems this fella thinks only one person can be a Gm. He seems to forget this is a system. And once learned it will be very easy to manage.

Your departments do all the leg work. The GM does nothing but a figurehead. I’d bet there are some on the staff who could do as well.

As for the board, we have various people in high places in their industry. They could do it.

Vote.

[Ike Hammett]

So why ever acquire any free agents? Why doesn't Andrew Friedman (the king Tampa model guy) do what you state? Why has he been so much more successful with the Dodgers?

Because Tampa Bay has much less ML payroll to work with. Tampa Bay can only afford to have maybe 10% of its productivity come from full market cost veterans. That puts them at a huge disadvantage even against team like the Cardinals who can have 33%, to say nothing of the big market clubs like the Dodgers who can have 70+%.

Any GM should do better with the resources of the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. The question here is how can the Cardinals do their best with the much more limited resources that they have to work with.

You're talking about "average" numbers, use your analytics to be better than average at this with guys that have a proven track record and not guys that need to be developed (which the Cardinals have always been for).

Every team's "analytics" is going to be much more accurate on veteran players with longer ML track records. Every team has access to enough data about those players to make informed decisions about how much they should offer. In 2025, you are very unlikely to find huge "market inefficiencies" when every team has a developed analytics department looking for the same.

It is much more likely to gain an "analytics" advantage over other teams when you are evaluating prospects for which there is greater uncertainty in what they will develop into.

Even if you develop those players well, you will still have to pay them more through arbitration or buying that out.

And that is what $55-$60 million of the Cardinals ML payroll should be going towards. But you have to obtain and develop those players first. You have to appropriately identify at least some high ceiling prospects that you can obtain and develop to reach their potential.

The real only true benefit to your model is if you come across Mike Trout type talent that provides huge value pre arbitration. But then you probably want (and the fans will demand a HUGE long term deal) that is against your model.

Aggressively signing young players to relative cheap long term deals which could pay off big is EXACTLY what the Cardinals should be doing more of.
 

You are going to pay either way, why not pay a little more for certainty to be competitive, instead of potentially having busts and 70 win seasons?

You don't pay "a little more" for full market cost veterans. You play a lot more for players which a higher floor but a lower ceiling. And just signing high floor/low ceiling veteran players isn't going to make you competitive with the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.

So basically you are admitting defeat and everything I have been posting from the beginning of this conversation is correct?

That, this is about money and economics. That my model is far superior, is proven to work better by even the best and the master of your model. That the GM and baseball ops should just follow the direction of the philosophy and their main focus should be to sell the product and make more money? That trying to nickel and dime your way to success is kind of a waste of time and those who believe in that really have no idea what they are posting about?

Not at all. Again, the foundation of the team has to be young cost controlled players - pre-arb, arb-eligible, and ones signed early to lower cost long term extensions. Only AFTER they rebuild that foundation should they look to add the Arenados, Grays, Goldschmidts, etc to fill the holes. You put the emphasis on having those "real pros" which should not be the emphasis.

dude give it a rest, you've made your point for anyone with enough brain cells to understand... i'm gonna have to reconsider my GM vote if you keep feeding the trolls

Huh? Isn't this exactly what Mr. DeWitt, Mr. Mo and Mr. Girch etc have done for decades?

So, if everything works out perfect in your design, how are you saving any money? You are developing real pros and you have to pay them as real pros and then on top of that paying real pros too to plug holes. How are you not just creating the 2022, 23, and 24 Cardinals? Or are you advocating more of a permanent 2025 minus Arenado, Gray, Contreras, type team? So tank and spend is your model?

[3dender]

dude give it a rest, you've made your point for anyone with enough brain cells to understand... i'm gonna have to reconsider my GM vote if you keep feeding the trolls

Huh? Isn't this exactly what Mr. DeWitt, Mr. Mo and Mr. Girch etc have done for decades?

So, if everything works out perfect in your design, how are you saving any money? You are developing real pros and you have to pay them as real pros and then on top of that paying real pros too to plug holes. How are you not just creating the 2022, 23, and 24 Cardinals? Or are you advocating more of a permanent 2025 minus Arenado, Gray, Contreras, type team? So tank and spend is your model?

Not today, satan.

[Melville]

Any poster who didn't advocate for signing Harper when he became a FA is automatically disqualified.

Any poster who ever dreamed STL had any interest or intention in signing Harper is automatically disqualified.
Being delusional is not a suitable attribute for a GM.

Works for Moe.

I know Mo better than Mo knows Mo.
Super Slo Mo is more of a starry eyed (literally) hopeless romantic than a delusional incompetent.
Mo falls in love.
And when Mo falls in love, he falls hard.
Problem is, like some other men and women, he falls in love in love with folks who will inevitably break his heart.
But the breakup always comes too late - and by then the damage is done.
Mo does not make BASEBALL DECISIONS - instead he follows his heart, protecting whoever is the latest object of his affection until the last possible moment.
Being delusional is not a suitable attribute for a GM - and neither is being a starry eyed (literally) hopeless romantic.

[Ike Hammett]

So why ever acquire any free agents? Why doesn't Andrew Friedman (the king Tampa model guy) do what you state? Why has he been so much more successful with the Dodgers?

Because Tampa Bay has much less ML payroll to work with. Tampa Bay can only afford to have maybe 10% of its productivity come from full market cost veterans. That puts them at a huge disadvantage even against team like the Cardinals who can have 33%, to say nothing of the big market clubs like the Dodgers who can have 70+%.

Any GM should do better with the resources of the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc. The question here is how can the Cardinals do their best with the much more limited resources that they have to work with.

You're talking about "average" numbers, use your analytics to be better than average at this with guys that have a proven track record and not guys that need to be developed (which the Cardinals have always been for).

Every team's "analytics" is going to be much more accurate on veteran players with longer ML track records. Every team has access to enough data about those players to make informed decisions about how much they should offer. In 2025, you are very unlikely to find huge "market inefficiencies" when every team has a developed analytics department looking for the same.

It is much more likely to gain an "analytics" advantage over other teams when you are evaluating prospects for which there is greater uncertainty in what they will develop into.

Even if you develop those players well, you will still have to pay them more through arbitration or buying that out.

And that is what $55-$60 million of the Cardinals ML payroll should be going towards. But you have to obtain and develop those players first. You have to appropriately identify at least some high ceiling prospects that you can obtain and develop to reach their potential.

The real only true benefit to your model is if you come across Mike Trout type talent that provides huge value pre arbitration. But then you probably want (and the fans will demand a HUGE long term deal) that is against your model.

Aggressively signing young players to relative cheap long term deals which could pay off big is EXACTLY what the Cardinals should be doing more of.
 

You are going to pay either way, why not pay a little more for certainty to be competitive, instead of potentially having busts and 70 win seasons?

You don't pay "a little more" for full market cost veterans. You play a lot more for players which a higher floor but a lower ceiling. And just signing high floor/low ceiling veteran players isn't going to make you competitive with the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.

So basically you are admitting defeat and everything I have been posting from the beginning of this conversation is correct?

That, this is about money and economics. That my model is far superior, is proven to work better by even the best and the master of your model. That the GM and baseball ops should just follow the direction of the philosophy and their main focus should be to sell the product and make more money? That trying to nickel and dime your way to success is kind of a waste of time and those who believe in that really have no idea what they are posting about?

Not at all. Again, the foundation of the team has to be young cost controlled players - pre-arb, arb-eligible, and ones signed early to lower cost long term extensions. Only AFTER they rebuild that foundation should they look to add the Arenados, Grays, Goldschmidts, etc to fill the holes. You put the emphasis on having those "real pros" which should not be the emphasis.

dude give it a rest, you've made your point for anyone with enough brain cells to understand... i'm gonna have to reconsider my GM vote if you keep feeding the trolls

Who is trolling? The guy is basically trying to sell the same cereal, put new and improved analytics improve on the box along with having shrinkflation by putting less in the box. And in doing so bashing on people who created the cereal in the first place. That's TROLLING!

[JDW]

mattmitch, rbi, futuregm or Ronnie Dobbs... pretty easy

Again, none. Some posters think they’re experts in running a baseball organization, but they’re not.
It takes years of experience in the industry to qualify for the job. Look at all the departments employees up and down the organization that the position is responsible for.

RBI would run circles around Moe

Yes. It seems this fella thinks only one person can be a Gm. He seems to forget this is a system. And once learned it will be very easy to manage.

Your departments do all the leg work. The GM does nothing but a figurehead. I’d bet there are some on the staff who could do as well.

As for the board, we have various people in high places in their industry. They could do it.

Vote.

Good point that the GM needs to surround himself with good engaged hard working baseball people with different strengths.
Then have frequent meetings where everybody has a voice, and having a voice is encouraged.
The GM considers all the input, refines his staff as necessary, and ultimately makes the decisions in conjunction with consideration to all the input he receives.
Quite a few on here could be an effective part of that system. Quite a few on here wouldn't work out well.

[sikeston bulldog2]

mattmitch, rbi, futuregm or Ronnie Dobbs... pretty easy

Again, none. Some posters think they’re experts in running a baseball organization, but they’re not.
It takes years of experience in the industry to qualify for the job. Look at all the departments employees up and down the organization that the position is responsible for.

RBI would run circles around Moe

Yes. It seems this fella thinks only one person can be a Gm. He seems to forget this is a system. And once learned it will be very easy to manage.

Your departments do all the leg work. The GM does nothing but a figurehead. I’d bet there are some on the staff who could do as well.

As for the board, we have various people in high places in their industry. They could do it.

Vote.

Good point that the GM needs to surround himself with good engaged hard working baseball people with different strengths.
Then have frequent meetings where everybody has a voice, and having a voice is encouraged.
The GM considers all the input, refines his staff as necessary, and ultimately makes the decisions in conjunction with consideration to all the input he receives.
Quite a few on here could be an effective part of that system. Quite a few on here wouldn't work out well.

I’d agree. Your people make a leader. Your environment makes your people. Good point on continuing conversation and open voices.

I’d bet they do a department meeting every Tuesday around 10 am. Then GM has various meetings daily with department heads.

[Cranny]

Injuries or not, the 2006 team had 83 wins. All teams have injuries.

Yadi 129g
Edmonds 110g
Eckstein 123g

So basically your middle of the field defense all missed significant time during the season with Edmonds 30Hr, 100rbi missing from the lineup 52 games
With a pitching staff of
C. Carp
Marquis
Suppan
Weaver
Reyes
Mulder…..who only pitched half the year.

Even with all that the TEAM WON the WS, and you attempt to compare that team to recents MO teams with no major injuries who can’t get to playoffs or win a game IF they get there……

I’m not comparing any teams to other teams. I’m simply saying that the 2006 and 2011 Cardinals were not favorites to win the World Series. And anyone who thinks the Cardinals in the future will be favorites to win the crown are going to be very disappointed. The team that wins is the team that is hot and relatively injury during the playoffs. The name of the game is to get into the playoffs.

[sikeston bulldog2]

Injuries or not, the 2006 team had 83 wins. All teams have injuries.

Yadi 129g
Edmonds 110g
Eckstein 123g

So basically your middle of the field defense all missed significant time during the season with Edmonds 30Hr, 100rbi missing from the lineup 52 games
With a pitching staff of
C. Carp
Marquis
Suppan
Weaver
Reyes
Mulder…..who only pitched half the year.

Even with all that the TEAM WON the WS, and you attempt to compare that team to recents MO teams with no major injuries who can’t get to playoffs or win a game IF they get there……

I’m not comparing any teams to other teams. I’m simply saying that the 2006 and 2011 Cardinals were not favorites to win the World Series. And anyone who thinks the Cardinals in the future will be favorites to win the crown are going to be very disappointed. The team that wins is the team that is hot and relatively injury during the playoffs. The name of the game is to get into the playoffs.

I agree.

[Melville]

The duties of a POBO and GM are far and wide, and require years of experience in the industry. No poster is qualified.

Given decisions and results of the past decade, you may well be overestimating the difficulty of the job and overvaluing experience.
For example, how hard could it possibly be to recognize the team has not had an established, productive, reliable, all-star quality outfielder for many, many years and that it would be a good idea to acquire one?
Would you like me to provide a dozen similar examples of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Super Slo Mo?

If Moe can do it, anyone can do it. How smart do you have to be to hire MM, Schildt and Oli in succession? Actually, that kind of extreme stupid can’t be underestimated. You have to be very, very secure in your job to do something that incredibly stupid.

I may not agree with Cranny that often, but in this case, he is spot on. The complications of being a GM/POBO is immense. Yes, every mistake MO makes is scrutinized to death with the benefit of hindsight. But look at all the personnel decisions he made over the year that worked out.

Matt Holliday
Carlos Beltran
The Dotel trade in 2011
The Furcal trade in 2011
Goldschmidt
Arenado (even if the last couple of years end badly, we gave up nothing)
On this team, Romero for Sosa, Maton signing, despite the last 2 years, all the draft picks starting with 2020 are now rounding out a pretty decent starting 8. Bloom will inherit a team that is in better shape than any Cards roster since around 2015.
Pitching is weak in the system, that is partly due to injury partly due to bad drafting. But, there are a few arms that are OK.

The ability to judge not just star talent, but all the pieces required to make a good team requires a huge eye for talent, the actual pieces that are missing etc. Further, none of us have the Dewitt's sitting over our shoulder limiting the resources we would all like to spend.

I was going to let this pass, but since the thread has continued longer than I anticipated, let's circle back.
If the bar of being a quality GM is "I think Holliday, Beltran, Goldschmidt, and Arenado in their prime would be good to have on my team", then most 10 year old fans would be qualified.
But let's look at players with whom Super Slo Mo had to make his own analysis and calculation.
Wrong about Craigenter.
Wrong about Taveras.
Wrong about Heyward.
Wrong about Moss.
Wrong about Fowler.
Wrong about Leake.
Wrong about Piscotty.
Wrong about DeJong.
Wrong about Martinez.
Wrong about Flaherty.
Wrong about O'Neill.
Wrong about Bader.
Wrong about Reyes.
Wrong about Nootbaar.
Wrong about Alcantara.
Wrong about Gallen.
Wrong about Arozarena.
Mo was wrong on each and every one of these - keeping the wrong guys, acquiring the wrong guys, trading the wrong guys.
A truly amazing record of ineptitude.
And that list is far from complete.
Now, you are correct that DeWitt does indeed "look over the shoulder".
In Mo's case, DeWitt's eyes have obviously been closed.
The team would be far better off if the shoulder over which DeWitt was peering was mine (note: I was never wrong about any of the above listed players).
Zero question that I would be far, far better at the job than Super Slo Mo - as would several others here.