Poll for Cards Talk- Which poster would make the best GM

[thetank2]

The duties of a POBO and GM are far and wide, and require years of experience in the industry. No poster is qualified.

Given decisions and results of the past decade, you may well be overestimating the difficulty of the job and overvaluing experience.
For example, how hard could it possibly be to recognize the team has not had an established, productive, reliable, all-star quality outfielder for many, many years and that it would be a good idea to acquire one?
Would you like me to provide a dozen similar examples of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Super Slo Mo?

If Moe can do it, anyone can do it. How smart do you have to be to hire MM, Schildt and Oli in succession? Actually, that kind of extreme stupid can’t be underestimated. You have to be very, very secure in your job to do something that incredibly stupid.

I may not agree with Cranny that often, but in this case, he is spot on. The complications of being a GM/POBO is immense. Yes, every mistake MO makes is scrutinized to death with the benefit of hindsight. But look at all the personnel decisions he made over the year that worked out.

Matt Holliday
Carlos Beltran
The Dotel trade in 2011
The Furcal trade in 2011
Goldschmidt
Arenado (even if the last couple of years end badly, we gave up nothing)
On this team, Romero for Sosa, Maton signing, despite the last 2 years, all the draft picks starting with 2020 are now rounding out a pretty decent starting 8. Bloom will inherit a team that is in better shape than any Cards roster since around 2015.
Pitching is weak in the system, that is partly due to injury partly due to bad drafting. But, there are a few arms that are OK.

The ability to judge not just star talent, but all the pieces required to make a good team requires a huge eye for talent, the actual pieces that are missing etc. Further, none of us have the Dewitt's sitting over our shoulder limiting the resources we would all like to spend.

Unfortunately 2011 was the last season MO went all out to win. Perhaps they knew Pujols, TRL/Dunc would be gone……but needing to go back 14yrs to the last WS series win to prove MO has made some impactful moves is a great reach. Especially since it’s been discussed extensively that the last decade has been an incomplete wasteland.

The Cards barely got into the playoffs in 2011. We won 3 series. They signed Beltran for 2012 and 2013. They could have easily won more series. Missed the playoffs by one game in 2016. Over 10 years the Cards was out of playoff contention just 3 games.

[Ike Hammett]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

Now that is a great question. I think the correct answer is who has the most rich friends and connections to drive business and get things done to create the best experience possible for the fans. At the end of the day it's about economics, I think. Who is the person that can get a nice TV deal and get sponsors to buy season tickets, influence the masses to be interested in Cards baseball and make St. Louis a destination city for baseball fans etc.

The Xs and Os of baseball pale in comparison to the what is really important at that level, which is generating interest, persuading the fans and generating revenues along with building a great community of happy people that will have fun being entertained by the product.

[desertrat23]

The duties of a POBO and GM are far and wide, and require years of experience in the industry. No poster is qualified.

Given decisions and results of the past decade, you may well be overestimating the difficulty of the job and overvaluing experience.
For example, how hard could it possibly be to recognize the team has not had an established, productive, reliable, all-star quality outfielder for many, many years and that it would be a good idea to acquire one?
Would you like me to provide a dozen similar examples of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Super Slo Mo?

If Moe can do it, anyone can do it. How smart do you have to be to hire MM, Schildt and Oli in succession? Actually, that kind of extreme stupid can’t be underestimated. You have to be very, very secure in your job to do something that incredibly stupid.

I may not agree with Cranny that often, but in this case, he is spot on. The complications of being a GM/POBO is immense. Yes, every mistake MO makes is scrutinized to death with the benefit of hindsight. But look at all the personnel decisions he made over the year that worked out.

Matt Holliday
Carlos Beltran
The Dotel trade in 2011
The Furcal trade in 2011
Goldschmidt
Arenado (even if the last couple of years end badly, we gave up nothing)
On this team, Romero for Sosa, Maton signing, despite the last 2 years, all the draft picks starting with 2020 are now rounding out a pretty decent starting 8. Bloom will inherit a team that is in better shape than any Cards roster since around 2015.
Pitching is weak in the system, that is partly due to injury partly due to bad drafting. But, there are a few arms that are OK.

The ability to judge not just star talent, but all the pieces required to make a good team requires a huge eye for talent, the actual pieces that are missing etc. Further, none of us have the Dewitt's sitting over our shoulder limiting the resources we would all like to spend.

Unfortunately 2011 was the last season MO went all out to win. Perhaps they knew Pujols, TRL/Dunc would be gone……but needing to go back 14yrs to the last WS series win to prove MO has made some impactful moves is a great reach. Especially since it’s been discussed extensively that the last decade has been an incomplete wasteland.

The Cards barely got into the playoffs in 2011. We won 3 series. They signed Beltran for 2012 and 2013. They could have easily won more series. Missed the playoffs by one game in 2016. Over 10 years the Cards was out of playoff contention just 3 games.

Yep. Then complacency set in.

[Goldfan]

The duties of a POBO and GM are far and wide, and require years of experience in the industry. No poster is qualified.

Given decisions and results of the past decade, you may well be overestimating the difficulty of the job and overvaluing experience.
For example, how hard could it possibly be to recognize the team has not had an established, productive, reliable, all-star quality outfielder for many, many years and that it would be a good idea to acquire one?
Would you like me to provide a dozen similar examples of ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Super Slo Mo?

If Moe can do it, anyone can do it. How smart do you have to be to hire MM, Schildt and Oli in succession? Actually, that kind of extreme stupid can’t be underestimated. You have to be very, very secure in your job to do something that incredibly stupid.

I may not agree with Cranny that often, but in this case, he is spot on. The complications of being a GM/POBO is immense. Yes, every mistake MO makes is scrutinized to death with the benefit of hindsight. But look at all the personnel decisions he made over the year that worked out.

Matt Holliday
Carlos Beltran
The Dotel trade in 2011
The Furcal trade in 2011
Goldschmidt
Arenado (even if the last couple of years end badly, we gave up nothing)
On this team, Romero for Sosa, Maton signing, despite the last 2 years, all the draft picks starting with 2020 are now rounding out a pretty decent starting 8. Bloom will inherit a team that is in better shape than any Cards roster since around 2015.
Pitching is weak in the system, that is partly due to injury partly due to bad drafting. But, there are a few arms that are OK.

The ability to judge not just star talent, but all the pieces required to make a good team requires a huge eye for talent, the actual pieces that are missing etc. Further, none of us have the Dewitt's sitting over our shoulder limiting the resources we would all like to spend.

Unfortunately 2011 was the last season MO went all out to win. Perhaps they knew Pujols, TRL/Dunc would be gone……but needing to go back 14yrs to the last WS series win to prove MO has made some impactful moves is a great reach. Especially since it’s been discussed extensively that the last decade has been an incomplete wasteland.

The Cards barely got into the playoffs in 2011. We won 3 series. They signed Beltran for 2012 and 2013. They could have easily won more series. Missed the playoffs by one game in 2016. Over 10 years the Cards was out of playoff contention just 3 games.

But the moves were made in 2011. Beltran replaced Pujols. After about ‘14-‘15 Mo/BDW seemed to lose the killer drive. Sure they acquired Goldy and NA but ALWAYS required a pitcher or another bat and NEVER went all in. I guarantee in TLB were still around he wouldve demanded more moves when they had a shot, that drive wasn’t present the last decade

[Ike Hammett]

Any poster who didn't advocate for signing Harper when he became a FA is automatically disqualified.

Huh? We got Goldy around the same time. He was more affordable for you "business like" people, won an MVP, and was a great Cardinal. How was Harper so much better? Did he contribute to ever winning the WS? The Phillies are a lot more than just Harper. What exactly makes you so certain the Cards fate is any different with him?

A much younger player with his whole prime in front of him.

Have you seen hispostseason numbers as a Phillie? He's not the reason they haven't won one yet.

This is crazy talk! If the Cards got into a bidding war with the crazy spend Phillies that 13yr $330 million contract might have been 15 year $400+ million. For that kind of loot Cards could go get Goldy, Nado, Contreras and Sonny Gray AND DID!

You honestly think Harper would have been a better deal than those 4 and gave the Cards a better chance to go deep into the playoffs? Oh heck no! You should be disqualified and Mr. Mo should get a red jacket!

think some also forget that STL had one of the best prospects in baseball coming up that year that just happened to play RF as well

It's an excellent point and maybe the #1 point as to why the Cards did what they did. There is no doubt in my mind the Cards were interested in Harper, that they would have seriously pursued him and wanted him but business and reality dictate the the most reasonable actions. The Organization was right, it makes me want to puke reading some of these comments from Monday morning quarterbacks that still get it wrong. Tough to be a Cards fan sometimes when all you get is nothing but unrealistic negativity and "fans" that can't be reasoned with. I can't tell if they are for real or just being that way because that is the social norm, that needs to change if the Cards are to be successful in the future.

[desertrat23]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

Now that is a great question. I think the correct answer is who has the most rich friends and connections to drive business and get things done to create the best experience possible for the fans. At the end of the day it's about economics, I think. Who is the person that can get a nice TV deal and get sponsors to buy season tickets, influence the masses to be interested in Cards baseball and make St. Louis a destination city for baseball fans etc.

The Xs and Os of baseball pale in comparison to the what is really important at that level, which is generating interest, persuading the fans and generating revenues along with building a great community of happy people that will have fun being entertained by the product.

All of those problems are solved by winning. The Cardinals didn’t have a hard time generating interest when they were good.

[Red Bird Classic]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

If your pool only includes CT posters, you can use a simple process of elimination.

(I posted some criteria up thread.) You want someone who is reasonable. logical, has a keen understanding of statistics, especially modern metrics. Right there you eliminate about 80% of CT posters.

You don't want a self aggrandizing egomaniac, or a complete jerk, or a total homer. That eliminates 40-50%, not counting the overlap. (Most CY fans are massive homers.)

And you want someone with pretty good political instincts. That lets about 10-50% out, depending on how PR conscious you are, and the Cardinals are very PR conscious. (People like 45's and myself could never get past our insistence on honesty.)

So if you make a list and cross off everyone who can't meet each standard (and many will fail multiple tests) the list gets small really fast.

[sikeston bulldog2]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

If your pool only includes CT posters, you can use a simple process of elimination.

(I posted some criteria up thread.) You want someone who is reasonable. logical, has a keen understanding of statistics, especially modern metrics. Right there you eliminate about 80% of CT posters.

You don't want a self aggrandizing egomaniac, or a complete jerk, or a total homer. That eliminates 40-50%, not counting the overlap. (Most CY fans are massive homers.)

And you want someone with pretty good political instincts. That lets about 10-20%. People like 45's and myself could never get past our insistence on honesty.

So if you make a list and cross off everyone who can't meet each standard (and many will fail multiple tests) the list gets small really fast.

Well a small list a the objective. Cream of the crop.

[Red Bird Classic]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

If your pool only includes CT posters, you can use a simple process of elimination.

(I posted some criteria up thread.) You want someone who is reasonable. logical, has a keen understanding of statistics, especially modern metrics. Right there you eliminate about 80% of CT posters.

You don't want a self aggrandizing egomaniac, or a complete jerk, or a total homer. That eliminates 40-50%, not counting the overlap. (Most CY fans are massive homers.)

And you want someone with pretty good political instincts. That lets about 10-20%. People like 45's and myself could never get past our insistence on honesty.

So if you make a list and cross off everyone who can't meet each standard (and many will fail multiple tests) the list gets small really fast.

Well a small list a the objective. Cream of the crop.

Honestly, the CT cow is the skim-milk variety--There's very little cream here.

The answer, if you're serious and you're Dollar Bill, is you interview RBI and maybe Matt. The rest of us have our strengths--some of us might make decent sports writers or radio loud mouths--but combining all the skills you'd actually need to run a major-league baseball team is a big ask, and most of us fall down in at least one or two areas.

[sikeston bulldog2]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

If your pool only includes CT posters, you can use a simple process of elimination.

(I posted some criteria up thread.) You want someone who is reasonable. logical, has a keen understanding of statistics, especially modern metrics. Right there you eliminate about 80% of CT posters.

You don't want a self aggrandizing egomaniac, or a complete jerk, or a total homer. That eliminates 40-50%, not counting the overlap. (Most CY fans are massive homers.)

And you want someone with pretty good political instincts. That lets about 10-20%. People like 45's and myself could never get past our insistence on honesty.

So if you make a list and cross off everyone who can't meet each standard (and many will fail multiple tests) the list gets small really fast.

Well a small list a the objective. Cream of the crop.

Honestly, the CT cow is the skim-milk variety--There's very little cream here.

The answer, if you're serious and you're Dollar Bill, is you interview RBI and maybe Matt. The rest of us have our strengths--some of us might make decent sports writers or radio loud mouths--but combining all the skills you'd actually need to run a major-league baseball team is a big ask, and most of us fall down in at least one or two areas.

2% milk. Ha funny . Skim -milk. You underestimate the base. Some here have held fairly respectable positions.

As for a profession, a leader is only as good as his subordinates. Creating a superior working environment, putting people in positions to succced I would think is paramount to their succcess.

[Red Bird Classic]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

Now that is a great question. I think the correct answer is who has the most rich friends and connections to drive business and get things done to create the best experience possible for the fans. At the end of the day it's about economics, I think. Who is the person that can get a nice TV deal and get sponsors to buy season tickets, influence the masses to be interested in Cards baseball and make St. Louis a destination city for baseball fans etc.

The Xs and Os of baseball pale in comparison to the what is really important at that level, which is generating interest, persuading the fans and generating revenues along with building a great community of happy people that will have fun being entertained by the product.

We're talking about a GM, not a president of the team. You need both, preferably two different people because the job is too big for one.

No matter who you know and how slick you are, you're not gonna generate much interest if the team isn't any good.

[Voldemort]

12 pages and I didn't get a single vote. I'm disappointed.

[Ike Hammett]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

Now that is a great question. I think the correct answer is who has the most rich friends and connections to drive business and get things done to create the best experience possible for the fans. At the end of the day it's about economics, I think. Who is the person that can get a nice TV deal and get sponsors to buy season tickets, influence the masses to be interested in Cards baseball and make St. Louis a destination city for baseball fans etc.

The Xs and Os of baseball pale in comparison to the what is really important at that level, which is generating interest, persuading the fans and generating revenues along with building a great community of happy people that will have fun being entertained by the product.

All of those problems are solved by winning. The Cardinals didn’t have a hard time generating interest when they were good.

Yes but No, it's the reverse. Winning comes from the structure and mindset along with the support. It's the Yankee doodle dandies Vs. the Tampa Bay Rays. Does it really matter how much the Rays win? The Yanks will still be better at everything in the minds of most. Yes, you can argue it's been because of their winning history but they haven't won a WS since 2009. The Rays literally play in the in the warm up/ minor league park of the Yanks. The future of Cards baseball needs to be the Yankee model far more than the Rays. Isn't that what you want as a fan?

[Red Bird Classic]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

If your pool only includes CT posters, you can use a simple process of elimination.

(I posted some criteria up thread.) You want someone who is reasonable. logical, has a keen understanding of statistics, especially modern metrics. Right there you eliminate about 80% of CT posters.

You don't want a self aggrandizing egomaniac, or a complete jerk, or a total homer. That eliminates 40-50%, not counting the overlap. (Most CY fans are massive homers.)

And you want someone with pretty good political instincts. That lets about 10-20%. People like 45's and myself could never get past our insistence on honesty.

So if you make a list and cross off everyone who can't meet each standard (and many will fail multiple tests) the list gets small really fast.

Well a small list a the objective. Cream of the crop.

Honestly, the CT cow is the skim-milk variety--There's very little cream here.

The answer, if you're serious and you're Dollar Bill, is you interview RBI and maybe Matt. The rest of us have our strengths--some of us might make decent sports writers or radio loud mouths--but combining all the skills you'd actually need to run a major-league baseball team is a big ask, and most of us fall down in at least one or two areas.

2% milk. Ha funny . Skim -milk. You underestimate the base. Some here have held fairly respectable positions.

As for a profession, a leader is only as good as his subordinates. Creating a superior working environment, putting people in positions to succced I would think is paramount to their succcess.

You make good points in your second paragraph. We should add these (more managerial) requirements to the list. And as we ask for more and more, our list will shrink even faster.

I don't think I underestimate the CT posters. Most, as I said before, are unreasoning, irrational homers; or self-aggrandizing egomaniacs, or worse. It's a Motley Crew.

Look at some of the suggestions: Cranny? (LOL) Melville? People are either kidding (I hope) or they have horrible judgment. Not that Cranny and Melville don't add something to the conversation here--they do! But I wouldn't let either of them anywhere near running my baseball team let alone the GM job.

Sadly, that goes for most other CT posters as well. But it's a tough job and it requires some very specific skills and abilities.

[mattmitchl44]

So. If we select our future GM, will we do it like the Catholic choose a Pope. What’s our criteria.

Now that is a great question. I think the correct answer is who has the most rich friends and connections to drive business and get things done to create the best experience possible for the fans. At the end of the day it's about economics, I think. Who is the person that can get a nice TV deal and get sponsors to buy season tickets, influence the masses to be interested in Cards baseball and make St. Louis a destination city for baseball fans etc.

The Xs and Os of baseball pale in comparison to the what is really important at that level, which is generating interest, persuading the fans and generating revenues along with building a great community of happy people that will have fun being entertained by the product.

All of those problems are solved by winning. The Cardinals didn’t have a hard time generating interest when they were good.

Yes but No, it's the reverse. Winning comes from the structure and mindset along with the support. It's the Yankee doodle dandies Vs. the Tampa Bay Rays. Does it really matter how much the Rays win? The Yanks will still be better at everything in the minds of most. Yes, you can argue it's been because of their winning history but they haven't won a WS since 2009. The Rays literally play in the in the warm up/ minor league park of the Yanks. The future of Cards baseball needs to be the Yankee model far more than the Rays. Isn't that what you want as a fan?

The economics of baseball is ensuring that the Cardinals cannot come close to the Yankees, Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc. in terms of a "model" by which to be consistently successful.

The Cardinals "model" has to be more like Cleveland, Milwaukee, and yes Tampa Bay - only with the Cardinals having the payroll resources to do what they do, but better.

[Red Bird Classic]

12 pages and I didn't get a single vote. I'm disappointed.

Didn't get any votes either, but when you consider some of the posters who did, I'm not sure we're the ones who should be disappointed.