Blooms lineup bets on the existing "core" in the near term

[imnoquitter]

They are gonna be pretty mediocre for the foreseeable future.
I was never really sure if this was a real rebuild or just ownership's response to the fans stepping away from the games. bDWIII as much said that attendance would have a direct impact on the payroll last season in a press conference.
I think they called our bluff!

[11WSChamps]

What existing core?

Burleson, Winn and Hererra are complementary pieces at best. Burleson with somebody around him in the lineup perhaps moreso.

This is assuming of course Donovan is traded.

You don't have that anchor that can carry a ballclub for weeks at time not on the roster or in the organization.

Who's going to trade you that type of player who isnt years away and if the plan is to reduce payroll how do you trade for one Who's at least somewhat established?

the plan can't be to further reduce payroll. After Nado, we have no 8 figure contracts left.

So what established OF bat are you going to get that doesn't significantly increase payroll?

[Carp4Cy]

What existing core?

Burleson, Winn and Hererra are complementary pieces at best. Burleson with somebody around him in the lineup perhaps moreso.

This is assuming of course Donovan is traded.

You don't have that anchor that can carry a ballclub for weeks at time not on the roster or in the organization.

Who's going to trade you that type of player who isnt years away and if the plan is to reduce payroll how do you trade for one Who's at least somewhat established?

the plan can't be to further reduce payroll. After Nado, we have no 8 figure contracts left.

So what established OF bat are you going to get that doesn't significantly increase payroll?

I'm saying payroll Will have to increase. Not sure if that happens this season, though we have certainly created room to cover it.

[JuanAgosto]

They are gonna be pretty mediocre for the foreseeable future.
I was never really sure if this was a real rebuild or just ownership's response to the fans stepping away from the games. bDWIII as much said that attendance would have a direct impact on the payroll last season in a press conference.
I think they called our bluff!

Im still in the wait and see what Bloom does before Opening Day mode. He could add a bat. But 2026 may turn out to be the real "runway" season for this team. Honestly, Mo screwed up 2025 by not playing Walker & Gorman as much as possible. Instead, he foolishly tried to stay in a wildcard race that hindered the long-term progression. Last year should've been what 2026 will probably be. Thank goodness Bloom is in charge now. I am confident he actually has a plan. Mo was a putz who half-[ashed] everything.

[Carp4Cy]

They are gonna be pretty mediocre for the foreseeable future.
I was never really sure if this was a real rebuild or just ownership's response to the fans stepping away from the games. bDWIII as much said that attendance would have a direct impact on the payroll last season in a press conference.
I think they called our bluff!

Im still in the wait and see what Bloom does before Opening Day mode. He could add a bat. But 2026 may turn out to be the real "runway" season for this team. Honestly, Mo screwed up 2025 by not playing Walker & Gorman as much as possible. Instead, he foolishly tried to stay in a wildcard race that hindered the long-term progression. Last year should've been what 2026 will probably be. Thank goodness Bloom is in charge now. I am confident he actually has a plan. Mo was a putz who half-[ashed] everything.

Nolan Gorman has played 426 major league games. Walker has played 279. Not playing 100% of the time last year is NOT why they haven't progressed into producting everyday players. They had PLENTY of chances to develop at the MLB level. Either they are unable to, or Oli's staff is unable to teach them what they need. 2026 is unlikely to make a difference with the exact same coaches in place.

[11WSChamps]

What existing core?

Burleson, Winn and Hererra are complementary pieces at best. Burleson with somebody around him in the lineup perhaps moreso.

This is assuming of course Donovan is traded.

You don't have that anchor that can carry a ballclub for weeks at time not on the roster or in the organization.

Who's going to trade you that type of player who isnt years away and if the plan is to reduce payroll how do you trade for one Who's at least somewhat established?

the plan can't be to further reduce payroll. After Nado, we have no 8 figure contracts left.

So what established OF bat are you going to get that doesn't significantly increase payroll?

I'm saying payroll Will have to increase. Not sure if that happens this season, though we have certainly created room to cover it.

Ok I thought we were talking about 2026.

[rockondlouie]

the plan can't be to further reduce payroll. After Nado, we have no 8 figure contracts left.

One carp

D. May/$12,000,000

+

$20,000,000 mutual 2027 option

ok right, but still we could easily be the lowest "active payroll" going into 2026 even IF we sign someone else.

No doubt, the payroll as it stands today is around $106M and heading lower once NADO, Donny, JoJo and ???? are dealt.

[JuanAgosto]

They are gonna be pretty mediocre for the foreseeable future.
I was never really sure if this was a real rebuild or just ownership's response to the fans stepping away from the games. bDWIII as much said that attendance would have a direct impact on the payroll last season in a press conference.
I think they called our bluff!

Im still in the wait and see what Bloom does before Opening Day mode. He could add a bat. But 2026 may turn out to be the real "runway" season for this team. Honestly, Mo screwed up 2025 by not playing Walker & Gorman as much as possible. Instead, he foolishly tried to stay in a wildcard race that hindered the long-term progression. Last year should've been what 2026 will probably be. Thank goodness Bloom is in charge now. I am confident he actually has a plan. Mo was a putz who half-[ashed] everything.

Nolan Gorman has played 426 major league games. Walker has played 279. Not playing 100% of the time last year is NOT why they haven't progressed into producting everyday players. They had PLENTY of chances to develop at the MLB level. Either they are unable to, or Oli's staff is unable to teach them what they need. 2026 is unlikely to make a difference with the exact same coaches in place.

Wait and see. Bloom will play them this year in a prove it season. 2026 is the real runway. 2025 should have been.

[Talkin' Baseball]

They are gonna be pretty mediocre for the foreseeable future.
I was never really sure if this was a real rebuild or just ownership's response to the fans stepping away from the games. bDWIII as much said that attendance would have a direct impact on the payroll last season in a press conference.
I think they called our bluff!

Im still in the wait and see what Bloom does before Opening Day mode. He could add a bat. But 2026 may turn out to be the real "runway" season for this team. Honestly, Mo screwed up 2025 by not playing Walker & Gorman as much as possible. Instead, he foolishly tried to stay in a wildcard race that hindered the long-term progression. Last year should've been what 2026 will probably be. Thank goodness Bloom is in charge now. I am confident he actually has a plan. Mo was a putz who half-[ashed] everything.

Nolan Gorman has played 426 major league games. Walker has played 279. Not playing 100% of the time last year is NOT why they haven't progressed into producting everyday players. They had PLENTY of chances to develop at the MLB level. Either they are unable to, or Oli's staff is unable to teach them what they need. 2026 is unlikely to make a difference with the exact same coaches in place.

Wait and see. Bloom will play them this year in a prove it season. 2026 is the real runway. 2025 should have been.

I believe that.

[Carp4Cy]

the plan can't be to further reduce payroll. After Nado, we have no 8 figure contracts left.

One carp

D. May/$12,000,000

+

$20,000,000 mutual 2027 option

ok right, but still we could easily be the lowest "active payroll" going into 2026 even IF we sign someone else.

No doubt, the payroll as it stands today is around $106M and heading lower once NADO, Donny, JoJo and ???? are dealt.

but what is the payroll of the 26 man? That's what matters to the product on the field and the recurring cost to the org.

Anyone who has been traded is a sunk cost now.

[Carp4Cy]

They are gonna be pretty mediocre for the foreseeable future.
I was never really sure if this was a real rebuild or just ownership's response to the fans stepping away from the games. bDWIII as much said that attendance would have a direct impact on the payroll last season in a press conference.
I think they called our bluff!

Im still in the wait and see what Bloom does before Opening Day mode. He could add a bat. But 2026 may turn out to be the real "runway" season for this team. Honestly, Mo screwed up 2025 by not playing Walker & Gorman as much as possible. Instead, he foolishly tried to stay in a wildcard race that hindered the long-term progression. Last year should've been what 2026 will probably be. Thank goodness Bloom is in charge now. I am confident he actually has a plan. Mo was a putz who half-[ashed] everything.

Nolan Gorman has played 426 major league games. Walker has played 279. Not playing 100% of the time last year is NOT why they haven't progressed into producting everyday players. They had PLENTY of chances to develop at the MLB level. Either they are unable to, or Oli's staff is unable to teach them what they need. 2026 is unlikely to make a difference with the exact same coaches in place.

Wait and see. Bloom will play them this year in a prove it season. 2026 is the real runway. 2025 should have been.

I believe that.

He may be right, but we run the risk of developing a reputation of granting effectively unlimited chances (same as Mo). Quite the opposite of "faster and better talent evaluation".

[Hoosier59]

If we assume anyone without an 8 figure contract (sorry Nado) is keepable OR tradable - then after 2026, anyone still on this roster who isn't making progress is Blooms problem. Who does he keep and who will we look back and wish he'd traded before they lost whatever remained of their trade value?

Gorman - 426 Games 3.5 career WAR 99 OPS+
Walker - 279 G, -2.7 WAR 88OPS+
Nootbaar - 527 G, 9.3 Career WAR. 109 OPS+ OK that looks decent on paper, but which was is he trending?
Herrera - 203 G, 4 WAR, 127 OPS+ - does he build on this and become a true plus player or is 19 HRs his ceiling?
Burly - 414 G, 2.2 career WAR
Winn - 316 G, 6.5 WAR, outstanding rookie year - have to reasonably assume there's more upside there.
Scott - 191 G, 2.2 WAR
Pages - 180 G, 2.2 WAR

so that's what we have right now - 1 good but not AS yet, some downright awful, several are just pedestrian. All have had more than 162 games tryouts. No one in double digits for career, no one above 4, except Winn. Are we being irrational to just hope and pray and see what we've got for another year and expect that 5 of these 8 can just magically double their production of prior years? And if so, where is the change coming from? Not Oli's MLB staff that hasn't changed from last year's massive failure at the plate. We were 29th in HRs. And our HR leader Willson just got traded.

Compare to recent real hitting talents we've developed:
Pujols - enough said
Molina - 14 WAR by age 28, gg
Carp - 10.4 WAR by age 28, in only 3 seasons.
Drew - 18 WAR by age 27, then traded for Waino
Renteria - 22 WAR by age 27, 17 of those for the Cards, gg
DeJong - 10.6 WAR by age 25 before falling off a cliff
Oneil - 1 year wonder but 6.4 WAR in 1 year at age 26 when healthy - where are our 6 WAR 26 yo's? (not burly)
Jon Jay - 7 WAR his first 3 years with 113 OPS+
Rasmus - 7.4 WAR in 2.5 years before being traded for a WS ring. 110 OPS+
Wong 16.5 WAR by age 28, gg
Bader 11.8 WAR by 28, gg
Edman - 17 WAR by age 28
Donovan - 11 WAR in first 4 seasons, gg

Bloom is stocking up on pitching prospects. Where is the future offense going to come from?
We are excited about Josh Baez maybe, but so far his best year is a 20 HR .884 OPS at age 22. Does that project as a plus MOTOB or just as a servicable starter?
for comps Mike Sirota OPS'd 1.068 so far in the minors. Andy Pages was over .900 and 1.000 at AA/AAA. Heck Walker was over 1.000 at A and .898 at AA at only age 20 and we know how well that's projected into the Majors. Clearly we need more than 2-3 legit hitting prospects including JJW. What does Bloom do for now, and what opportunities will we regret missing?

Good post and good questions.
Bottom line is the Cardinals are full of decent complimentary players. However, we lack any lineup "pillars".

I believe JJ will be an offensive pillar and Herrera may develop to a Contreras type level, but the Cardinals are going to have to fill this void from outside the organization - either via trade (a la Goldy/Nado and the Stanton attempt) or through Free Agency, and ponying up some cash -which we have.

Add in 2 pillars along with JJ, then you're looking at a good lineup.

Wetherholt
Herrera
PILLAR
PILLAR
Burleson
Gorman? (Still needs to show more to be even a complimentary piece.)
Walker? (Still needs to show more to be even a complimentary piece)
Winn
Scott II

I would have to argue with one point you made here. You said Herrera might live up to be what Contreras is as a hitter. I’d say he’s already surpassed him! Contreras has never hit for the average that Herrera has, and Ivan had nearly as many home runs and RBI’s in fewer at bats. Contreras was given the most at bats he’d ever had and still didn’t produce anymore runs, Herrera is just getting started. Let’s hope he stays healthy. If he does he’ll blow away anything Contreras has ever done!

[Talkin' Baseball]

They are gonna be pretty mediocre for the foreseeable future.
I was never really sure if this was a real rebuild or just ownership's response to the fans stepping away from the games. bDWIII as much said that attendance would have a direct impact on the payroll last season in a press conference.
I think they called our bluff!

Im still in the wait and see what Bloom does before Opening Day mode. He could add a bat. But 2026 may turn out to be the real "runway" season for this team. Honestly, Mo screwed up 2025 by not playing Walker & Gorman as much as possible. Instead, he foolishly tried to stay in a wildcard race that hindered the long-term progression. Last year should've been what 2026 will probably be. Thank goodness Bloom is in charge now. I am confident he actually has a plan. Mo was a putz who half-[ashed] everything.

Nolan Gorman has played 426 major league games. Walker has played 279. Not playing 100% of the time last year is NOT why they haven't progressed into producting everyday players. They had PLENTY of chances to develop at the MLB level. Either they are unable to, or Oli's staff is unable to teach them what they need. 2026 is unlikely to make a difference with the exact same coaches in place.

Wait and see. Bloom will play them this year in a prove it season. 2026 is the real runway. 2025 should have been.

I believe that.

He may be right, but we run the risk of developing a reputation of granting effectively unlimited chances (same as Mo). Quite the opposite of "faster and better talent evaluation".

A reputation is earned over time. If, over time, they don't do better than their predecessors, they will deserve to wear the rep they earned.

[sikeston bulldog2]

They are gonna be pretty mediocre for the foreseeable future.
I was never really sure if this was a real rebuild or just ownership's response to the fans stepping away from the games. bDWIII as much said that attendance would have a direct impact on the payroll last season in a press conference.
I think they called our bluff!

Im still in the wait and see what Bloom does before Opening Day mode. He could add a bat. But 2026 may turn out to be the real "runway" season for this team. Honestly, Mo screwed up 2025 by not playing Walker & Gorman as much as possible. Instead, he foolishly tried to stay in a wildcard race that hindered the long-term progression. Last year should've been what 2026 will probably be. Thank goodness Bloom is in charge now. I am confident he actually has a plan. Mo was a putz who half-[ashed] everything.

Nolan Gorman has played 426 major league games. Walker has played 279. Not playing 100% of the time last year is NOT why they haven't progressed into producting everyday players. They had PLENTY of chances to develop at the MLB level. Either they are unable to, or Oli's staff is unable to teach them what they need. 2026 is unlikely to make a difference with the exact same coaches in place.

Wait and see. Bloom will play them this year in a prove it season. 2026 is the real runway. 2025 should have been.

I believe that.

He may be right, but we run the risk of developing a reputation of granting effectively unlimited chances (same as Mo). Quite the opposite of "faster and better talent evaluation".

A reputation is earned over time. If, over time, they don't do better than their predecessors, they will deserve to wear the rep they earned.

Sometimes. A reputation is much harder to live up to; than it was to earn.

[rockondlouie]

the plan can't be to further reduce payroll. After Nado, we have no 8 figure contracts left.

One carp

D. May/$12,000,000

+

$20,000,000 mutual 2027 option

ok right, but still we could easily be the lowest "active payroll" going into 2026 even IF we sign someone else.

No doubt, the payroll as it stands today is around $106M and heading lower once NADO, Donny, JoJo and ???? are dealt.

but what is the payroll of the 26 man? That's what matters to the product on the field and the recurring cost to the org.

Anyone who has been traded is a sunk cost now.

$106M - $24M to Boston for Gray & WillyC = $82M actual on-the-roster player payroll which includes estimates for the ARBs.

[AZ_Cardsfan]

Thing is the lineup in 2026 is irrelevant. That is the year they try many young players to see who is real and who isn't. And find out where there is a hole that can not be filled from within.