This was the plan all along.

[C-Unit]

Very sinister, huh.

what we were doing to the Front Office, Minor Leagues, Major League team since 2020 was called "winning"... I guess How dare we try to fix the broken situation.

I'm loving the trolls today.

And how is this being fixed? By trading off any real talent and contracts for middling Bosox prospects??
You’re the minor leaguer expert…..what REAL talent has been returned? Injured prospects? A couple losing record 5.00ERA pitchers??
I know all here want this fantasy of Bloom scoring on every prospect exchange for good ML players , he’ll pull rabbits out of hats when drafting, and every lost soul current minor leaguer who needs the secret sauce to unlock their All-star potential will see that finally come to fruition
And presto Cheap All-stars running all around Busch by what……’27.
This has never occurred in modern Cards history. All winning we’ve seen has been a very healthy supply of FA or traded Vets…SPENDING MONEY
This notion that drafting and improving player development can’t align with fielding a competitive ML team is hilarious.
Talent was here before these trades and could’ve been supplemented on offense and pitching. SPEND NOW
But this story is being told that this cache of top prospects will land here on Santas sleigh and launch this never seen before REBUILD,
Again show me the names to take this team to the playoffs, did we just receive them and aren they still out there to be had??

They're not going to spend. No amount of ranting or caps locks is going to change that.

They're going forward with a small market model.

Well exactly. It’s reset salary dump…..and it won’t go back. Thankyou and Amen
Let me know the last small market low spending team to win the WS

Dude, I've been trying to tell people for two years that this "reset" is code for a reset to a small market model. People just haven't wanted to hear it, and they don't want to believe it.

They want no payroll obligations running into the new CBA. They brought in guys from Tampa and Cleveland to reset this thing, and a pitching development guy from Seattle so they can self fund their rotation without having to go get top of the rotation guys on the market.

So what do you think. Let's get to the other side of the CBA issue, 2028-29. Are you saying you don't think there will be anything financially that seperates the Cardinals from any of the other 9 central division teams. I agree we will be limited to spending like a central division team and not a coastal team (out of the top 15 payrolls I think the only one in either central division is CHC). But for a long time St Louis had an edge over the Minnesota's, Cleveland, Cincinnati of the world in terms of being able to supplement their roster from external additions.

I don't dispute that Cleveland has been the model franchise for how a central division team needs to operate in order to sustain themselves. And, the diligence of those teams is what allowed them to earn a certain cutting edge while the Cardinals became complacent. Is that how you would interpret it?

So the Cardinals are past due to exercise their own diligence and now they will with Bloom and Cerfolio. I appreciate the path the Cardinals are taking.

But do you ever see the Cardinal organization returning to the "stature" of franchise they were circa 2000. Or do you see them as being completely unable to seperate themselves from any of the other 9 central division teams, even after the lockout issue is behind us.

[Cusecards]

Very sinister, huh.

what we were doing to the Front Office, Minor Leagues, Major League team since 2020 was called "winning"... I guess How dare we try to fix the broken situation.

I'm loving the trolls today.

No kidding! The holidays certainly bring out the best, right?
Thanks for all your work and insight this season, Duce. Happy holidays to you and yours.

The offseason usually brings out some rather unusual “types”.
But this offseason is starting to look like one for the books.

[An Old Friend]

Very sinister, huh.

what we were doing to the Front Office, Minor Leagues, Major League team since 2020 was called "winning"... I guess How dare we try to fix the broken situation.

I'm loving the trolls today.

And how is this being fixed? By trading off any real talent and contracts for middling Bosox prospects??
You’re the minor leaguer expert…..what REAL talent has been returned? Injured prospects? A couple losing record 5.00ERA pitchers??
I know all here want this fantasy of Bloom scoring on every prospect exchange for good ML players , he’ll pull rabbits out of hats when drafting, and every lost soul current minor leaguer who needs the secret sauce to unlock their All-star potential will see that finally come to fruition
And presto Cheap All-stars running all around Busch by what……’27.
This has never occurred in modern Cards history. All winning we’ve seen has been a very healthy supply of FA or traded Vets…SPENDING MONEY
This notion that drafting and improving player development can’t align with fielding a competitive ML team is hilarious.
Talent was here before these trades and could’ve been supplemented on offense and pitching. SPEND NOW
But this story is being told that this cache of top prospects will land here on Santas sleigh and launch this never seen before REBUILD,
Again show me the names to take this team to the playoffs, did we just receive them and aren they still out there to be had??

They're not going to spend. No amount of ranting or caps locks is going to change that.

They're going forward with a small market model.

Well exactly. It’s reset salary dump…..and it won’t go back. Thankyou and Amen
Let me know the last small market low spending team to win the WS

Dude, I've been trying to tell people for two years that this "reset" is code for a reset to a small market model. People just haven't wanted to hear it, and they don't want to believe it.

They want no payroll obligations running into the new CBA. They brought in guys from Tampa and Cleveland to reset this thing, and a pitching development guy from Seattle so they can self fund their rotation without having to go get top of the rotation guys on the market.

So what do you think. Let's get to the other side of the CBA issue, 2028-29. Are you saying you don't think there will be anything financially that seperates the Cardinals from any of the other 9 central division teams. I agree we will be limited to spending like a central division team and not a coastal team (out of the top 15 payrolls I think the only one in either central division is CHC). But for a long time St Louis had an edge over the Minnesota's, Cleveland, Cincinnati of the world in terms of being able to supplement their roster from external additions.

I don't dispute that Cleveland has been the model franchise for how a central division team needs to operate in order to sustain themselves. And, the diligence of those teams is what allowed them to earn a certain cutting edge while the Cardinals became complacent. Is that how you would interpret it?

So the Cardinals are past due to exercise their own diligence and now they will with Bloom and Cerfolio. I appreciate the path the Cardinals are taking.

But do you ever see the Cardinal organization returning to the "stature" of franchise they were circa 2000. Or do you see them as being completely unable to seperate themselves from any of the other 9 central division teams, even after the lockout issue is behind us.

I think regardless of the new CBA, the advantages St Louis had as a market are gone, so the only separation will be in front office and player development.

The Cardinals' brand nationally has deteriorated. It is no longer a place where players are yearning to play. The national fan base is shrinking. Ownership missed their chance to capitalize on their popularity. No new revenue stream is going to save them.

[Bushiro]

Very sinister, huh.

what we were doing to the Front Office, Minor Leagues, Major League team since 2020 was called "winning"... I guess How dare we try to fix the broken situation.

I'm loving the trolls today.

And how is this being fixed? By trading off any real talent and contracts for middling Bosox prospects??
You’re the minor leaguer expert…..what REAL talent has been returned? Injured prospects? A couple losing record 5.00ERA pitchers??
I know all here want this fantasy of Bloom scoring on every prospect exchange for good ML players , he’ll pull rabbits out of hats when drafting, and every lost soul current minor leaguer who needs the secret sauce to unlock their All-star potential will see that finally come to fruition
And presto Cheap All-stars running all around Busch by what……’27.
This has never occurred in modern Cards history. All winning we’ve seen has been a very healthy supply of FA or traded Vets…SPENDING MONEY
This notion that drafting and improving player development can’t align with fielding a competitive ML team is hilarious.
Talent was here before these trades and could’ve been supplemented on offense and pitching. SPEND NOW
But this story is being told that this cache of top prospects will land here on Santas sleigh and launch this never seen before REBUILD,
Again show me the names to take this team to the playoffs, did we just receive them and aren they still out there to be had??

They're not going to spend. No amount of ranting or caps locks is going to change that.

They're going forward with a small market model.

Well exactly. It’s reset salary dump…..and it won’t go back. Thankyou and Amen
Let me know the last small market low spending team to win the WS

Dude, I've been trying to tell people for two years that this "reset" is code for a reset to a small market model. People just haven't wanted to hear it, and they don't want to believe it.

They want no payroll obligations running into the new CBA. They brought in guys from Tampa and Cleveland to reset this thing, and a pitching development guy from Seattle so they can self fund their rotation without having to go get top of the rotation guys on the market.

So what do you think. Let's get to the other side of the CBA issue, 2028-29. Are you saying you don't think there will be anything financially that seperates the Cardinals from any of the other 9 central division teams. I agree we will be limited to spending like a central division team and not a coastal team (out of the top 15 payrolls I think the only one in either central division is CHC). But for a long time St Louis had an edge over the Minnesota's, Cleveland, Cincinnati of the world in terms of being able to supplement their roster from external additions.

I don't dispute that Cleveland has been the model franchise for how a central division team needs to operate in order to sustain themselves. And, the diligence of those teams is what allowed them to earn a certain cutting edge while the Cardinals became complacent. Is that how you would interpret it?

So the Cardinals are past due to exercise their own diligence and now they will with Bloom and Cerfolio. I appreciate the path the Cardinals are taking.

But do you ever see the Cardinal organization returning to the "stature" of franchise they were circa 2000. Or do you see them as being completely unable to seperate themselves from any of the other 9 central division teams, even after the lockout issue is behind us.

Old birds 9 to 12 in payroll give or take
Going forward 19 to 22 give or take

[HorseTrader]

Very sinister, huh.

Why do some of these people even bother following the Cardinals. It just seems to make them miserable.

[C-Unit]

Very sinister, huh.

what we were doing to the Front Office, Minor Leagues, Major League team since 2020 was called "winning"... I guess How dare we try to fix the broken situation.

I'm loving the trolls today.

And how is this being fixed? By trading off any real talent and contracts for middling Bosox prospects??
You’re the minor leaguer expert…..what REAL talent has been returned? Injured prospects? A couple losing record 5.00ERA pitchers??
I know all here want this fantasy of Bloom scoring on every prospect exchange for good ML players , he’ll pull rabbits out of hats when drafting, and every lost soul current minor leaguer who needs the secret sauce to unlock their All-star potential will see that finally come to fruition
And presto Cheap All-stars running all around Busch by what……’27.
This has never occurred in modern Cards history. All winning we’ve seen has been a very healthy supply of FA or traded Vets…SPENDING MONEY
This notion that drafting and improving player development can’t align with fielding a competitive ML team is hilarious.
Talent was here before these trades and could’ve been supplemented on offense and pitching. SPEND NOW
But this story is being told that this cache of top prospects will land here on Santas sleigh and launch this never seen before REBUILD,
Again show me the names to take this team to the playoffs, did we just receive them and aren they still out there to be had??

They're not going to spend. No amount of ranting or caps locks is going to change that.

They're going forward with a small market model.

Well exactly. It’s reset salary dump…..and it won’t go back. Thankyou and Amen
Let me know the last small market low spending team to win the WS

Dude, I've been trying to tell people for two years that this "reset" is code for a reset to a small market model. People just haven't wanted to hear it, and they don't want to believe it.

They want no payroll obligations running into the new CBA. They brought in guys from Tampa and Cleveland to reset this thing, and a pitching development guy from Seattle so they can self fund their rotation without having to go get top of the rotation guys on the market.

So what do you think. Let's get to the other side of the CBA issue, 2028-29. Are you saying you don't think there will be anything financially that seperates the Cardinals from any of the other 9 central division teams. I agree we will be limited to spending like a central division team and not a coastal team (out of the top 15 payrolls I think the only one in either central division is CHC). But for a long time St Louis had an edge over the Minnesota's, Cleveland, Cincinnati of the world in terms of being able to supplement their roster from external additions.

I don't dispute that Cleveland has been the model franchise for how a central division team needs to operate in order to sustain themselves. And, the diligence of those teams is what allowed them to earn a certain cutting edge while the Cardinals became complacent. Is that how you would interpret it?

So the Cardinals are past due to exercise their own diligence and now they will with Bloom and Cerfolio. I appreciate the path the Cardinals are taking.

But do you ever see the Cardinal organization returning to the "stature" of franchise they were circa 2000. Or do you see them as being completely unable to seperate themselves from any of the other 9 central division teams, even after the lockout issue is behind us.

I think regardless of the new CBA, the advantages St Louis had as a market are gone, so the only separation will be in front office and player development.

The Cardinals' brand nationally has deteriorated. It is no longer a place where players are yearning to play. The national fan base is shrinking. Ownership missed their chance to capitalize on their popularity. No new revenue stream is going to save them.

I think you said it but this is what I was getting at. Put the blame on the team.

What separated them in the 2000s was a combination of things. It was a) their brand. It was b) perhaps the different economics in the game then vs now. But I would extend to also say c) a perfect storm element.

In that even if the Cardinals were able to claw their way back to the type of "winning" expectation the franchise and their fans carried together around 2000, the idea of attracting a player of McGwire's level of stardom to come to St Louis is something I think is far-fetched now, and even at the time was something you could characterize as "irregular" to happen in a Midwest spot like St Louis.

Would you agree? And really, McGwire's presence helped parlay the entire winning decade+ to follow. Not to mention the luck of having Pujols, finding Chris Carpenter. They managed to hold a spot as the class of the National League for quite a while, and quite an enviable achievement for any Central division franchise to do.

Back to what you said. Where do you think the point of no return was as far as being able to capitalize? You could argue the franchise had a certain buzz around it as recently as 2022. The organization was certainly showing chinks in the armor back to 2015 like we all say. But they had managed to go on and build the Goldschmidt-Arenado core in the same manner they had acquired Edmonds, Rolen, Holliday. For all intents and purposes, the organization was doing "just fine" again from 2019-2022 with somewhat similar methodology to the early 2000s. And, the woes of the hackgate issue and Taveras death were pretty much behind us for the moment.

So how did we get here?

Was it as simple as them not supplementing those teams with better starting pitching? And then, the complete failure to have their most hyped prospects achieve their potential? I think the drop-off from 2022 to 23 was so stark because of the absolute nothing they collectively got out of Carlson, Gorman, and Walker. Actually, Gorman did alright in 2023 but that was in all fairness about the middle of the road expectation for him. Was the drop-off no more than a matter of Walker and Carlson not also achieving just their middle of the road expectations? (a steady 3-4 win career out of Carlson, and consistent .280 25 90 production out of Walker). If those things happened, would we not be where we are right now?

[zoiks]

The payroll they’ll end up to start next season is what we’re in for until Dewitt dies and his son, who obviously does not care about baseball, sells the team once the tv contract situation becomes stable longterm. Then the problem becomes what mega-rich baseball-loving billionaire would want to live in St. Louis? We’ll be hoping that the real money behind Blues ownership buys the Cardinals, or it could be bleak for a long time for Cardinals fans.

[Goldfan]

Very sinister, huh.

what we were doing to the Front Office, Minor Leagues, Major League team since 2020 was called "winning"... I guess How dare we try to fix the broken situation.

I'm loving the trolls today.

No kidding! The holidays certainly bring out the best, right?
Thanks for all your work and insight this season, Duce. Happy holidays to you and yours.

The offseason usually brings out some rather unusual “types”.
But this offseason is starting to look like one for the books.

Cuse you and Paige should start your own forum where you critique and exclusively talk about CT posters. 90% of your posts are some sort of derogatory statement about CT posters view on Cards baseball. You rarely have a baseball thought….good luck on new forum!!

[An Old Friend]

The payroll they’ll end up to start next season is what we’re in for until Dewitt dies and his son, who obviously does not care about baseball, sells the team once the tv contract situation becomes stable longterm. Then the problem becomes what mega-rich baseball-loving billionaire would want to live in St. Louis? We’ll be hoping that the real money behind Blues ownership buys the Cardinals, or it could be bleak for a long time for Cardinals fans.

My real concern for St Louis is that they get sold, and unless it's a guy like Mark Cuban, it'll make sense for a new owner to rip the band aid off and move the team to Nashville.

[Cusecards]

Very sinister, huh.

what we were doing to the Front Office, Minor Leagues, Major League team since 2020 was called "winning"... I guess How dare we try to fix the broken situation.

I'm loving the trolls today.

No kidding! The holidays certainly bring out the best, right?
Thanks for all your work and insight this season, Duce. Happy holidays to you and yours.

The offseason usually brings out some rather unusual “types”.
But this offseason is starting to look like one for the books.

Cuse you and Paige should start your own forum where you critique and exclusively talk about CT posters. 90% of your posts are some sort of derogatory statement about CT posters view on Cards baseball. You rarely have a baseball thought….good luck on new forum!!

I’ve been engaging with other posters all day. You could have interjected a legit baseball opinion as we were engaged in doing.
That is...assuming for once in your life you could formulate a legit baseball opinion?
We all know your style:
1) Whine and cry when something doesn’t go your way.
2) Cut and paste articles that OTHER people write because you are incapable of lucid thought outside of whining.
3) Attach all kinds of cute emojis to your posts.
4) During the season you never seem to post after the Cards WIN a game? Only after they LOSE because that enables your whining.

I’d say a bunch of us responded pretty clearly to you in various threads the last few days.
And those responses were ALL pretty much the same.
I especially liked the Fitts/May/Dobbins thread which YOU started....got owned....and ran away per usual.

Oh and Merry Christmas to you and yours also PG!

[CCard]

This was planned. The Woo article was intentionally fostered. (I believe) And now we see the plan being perpetrated. Bloom was brought here to put this plan into play. How many games a year will the Cards lose for the next 3 to 5 years? 90? 100? How far down will attendance dwindle? How many more excuses for the teams struggles? Give it 3 to 5 years of losing and we'll magically give you a playoff team. We promise.

the ceiling for attendance is around 2.3 million with the floor being around 1.5

Not if they lose like I think they're going to lose. By the all-star break they could be 15 or more games back and out of it. What do you think that'll do for attendance. Of course if they bring up the savior (Whetherholt) that might put a few butts in the seats but not many.

[dugoutrex]

This was planned. The Woo article was intentionally fostered. (I believe) And now we see the plan being perpetrated. Bloom was brought here to put this plan into play. How many games a year will the Cards lose for the next 3 to 5 years? 90? 100? How far down will attendance dwindle? How many more excuses for the teams struggles? Give it 3 to 5 years of losing and we'll magically give you a playoff team. We promise.

the ceiling for attendance is around 2.3 million with the floor being around 1.5

Not if they lose like I think they're going to lose. By the all-star break they could be 15 or more games back and out of it. What do you think that'll do for attendance. Of course if they bring up the savior (Whetherholt) that might put a few butts in the seats but not many.

that's how we get 1.5