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ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 15:23 pm When the let the Boston roid boy in the HOF that diminished it significantly and disrespected those who went before.

makesnosense wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 09:40 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 15:23 pm When the let the Boston roid boy in the HOF that diminished it significantly and disrespected those who went before.

Only because he was a boarder line HOF? The only thing diminishing the Hall and disrespecting earlier inductees is that Bonds and his greatness has not been inducted.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 09:42 am

makesnosense wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 09:40 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 15:23 pm When the let the Boston roid boy in the HOF that diminished it significantly and disrespected those who went before.

Only because he was a boarder line HOF? The only thing diminishing the Hall and disrespecting earlier inductees is that Bonds and his greatness has not been inducted.

PED's are illegal and get players suspended but they put a guy in the HOF who was a user.

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 15:13 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 15:02 pm Beltran (4th year) 77.8%
Andrew Jones (9th) 77.8%

Utley (3rd) 58.3%
Felix Hernandez (2nd) 52.8%
Abreu (7th) 41.7%

None of them are Hall of Famers but the watered down Hall will put one or two of them in.

Cheating scandal aside, why do you think Carlos Beltran is not a HOF player? His counting stats are there. He was a top 10 player in the league for a decade. Perhaps not the best player in the league or at his position, but elite for a long time.

makesnosense wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 09:44 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 09:42 am

makesnosense wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 09:40 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 15:23 pm When the let the Boston roid boy in the HOF that diminished it significantly and disrespected those who went before.

Only because he was a boarder line HOF? The only thing diminishing the Hall and disrespecting earlier inductees is that Bonds and his greatness has not been inducted.

PED's are illegal and get players suspended but they put a guy in the HOF who was a user.

More than one is in. Has it should be, but the Hall won't be complete until the Great One is inducted.

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 08:58 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 15:13 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 15:02 pm Beltran (4th year) 77.8%
Andrew Jones (9th) 77.8%

Utley (3rd) 58.3%
Felix Hernandez (2nd) 52.8%
Abreu (7th) 41.7%

None of them are Hall of Famers but the watered down Hall will put one or two of them in.

Cheating scandal aside, why do you think Carlos Beltran is not a HOF player? His counting stats are there. He was a top 10 player in the league for a decade. Perhaps not the best player in the league or at his position, but elite for a long time.

Well aside for him already being passed over three times, his counting stats are NOT there Hall of Fame wise:

-He didn't hit 500 HR's

-He didn't have 3,000 hits

-.279 .350 .486 .837 isn't a Hall of Fame worthy slash (IMO)

-Neither is his 119 OPS+/118 wRC+

-The only major award he ever won was ROY

As you can see, his JAWS falls just short of Hall Level:
WS
Center Field (9th):
Beltran 70.0 career WAR | 44.4 7yr-peak WAR | 57.2 JAWS | 4.4 WAR/162
Average HOF CF (out of 19):
71.3 career WAR | 44.6 7yr-peak WAR | 58.0 JAWS | 5.4 WAR/162

-I also don't rule out being a PED abuser as well, especially given we know he's wide open to cheating.


-He was a nine time all-star which is Hall of Fame level

-And his 67.4 fWar is impressive

Like I said, two (other A. Jones) will likely get into the watered down Hall and he could be one but he's a Hall of Very, Very Good which is JMO.

You're right, it's true, the hall of fame is getting watered down and the stats of old are not really matched (500 Hrs 3000 hits etc). It's because the game is becoming more and more specialized. It's getting harder to compete at those levels due to the combination specialized talent and an importance to constantly find better players.

Beltran had both longevity and a decent peak in the modern game, has decent counting stats and was considered a star in his time. Like 300 wins, you can't really compare these players to those of a different generation.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 10:34 am

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 08:58 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 15:13 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 15:02 pm Beltran (4th year) 77.8%
Andrew Jones (9th) 77.8%

Utley (3rd) 58.3%
Felix Hernandez (2nd) 52.8%
Abreu (7th) 41.7%

None of them are Hall of Famers but the watered down Hall will put one or two of them in.

Cheating scandal aside, why do you think Carlos Beltran is not a HOF player? His counting stats are there. He was a top 10 player in the league for a decade. Perhaps not the best player in the league or at his position, but elite for a long time.

Well aside for him already being passed over three times, his counting stats are NOT there Hall of Fame wise:

-He didn't hit 500 HR's

-He didn't have 3,000 hits

-.279 .350 .486 .837 isn't a Hall of Fame worthy slash (IMO)

-Neither is his 119 OPS+/118 wRC+

-The only major award he ever won was ROY

As you can see, his JAWS falls just short of Hall Level:
WS
Center Field (9th):
Beltran 70.0 career WAR | 44.4 7yr-peak WAR | 57.2 JAWS | 4.4 WAR/162
Average HOF CF (out of 19):
71.3 career WAR | 44.6 7yr-peak WAR | 58.0 JAWS | 5.4 WAR/162

-I also don't rule out being a PED abuser as well, especially given we know he's wide open to cheating.


-He was a nine time all-star which is Hall of Fame level

-And his 67.4 fWar is impressive

Like I said, two (other A. Jones) will likely get into the watered down Hall and he could be one but he's a Hall of Very, Very Good which is JMO.

You're right, it's true, the hall of fame is getting watered down and the stats of old are not really matched (500 Hrs 3000 hits etc). It's because the game is becoming more and more specialized. It's getting harder to compete at those levels due to the combination specialized talent and an importance to constantly find better players.

Beltran had both longevity and a decent peak in the modern game, has decent counting stats and was considered a star in his time. Like 300 wins, you can't really compare these players to those of a different generation.

I think it's also because star players, those likely to become Hall of Famers, are making SO MUCH MONEY NOW that SOME don't need to put in the 15-20 year careers and fall short of those tradition (500 HR's, 3000 hits, 300 wins, ect...) Hall of Fame numbers.

But this is what makes baseball the best, we can have these types of debates!

And as always I respect those who's opinions differ from mine Ike.

I'd be throwing out a whole lot of players who've been inducted the last decade who (IMO) aren't Hall of Famers.

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 10:52 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 10:34 am

Ike Hammett wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 Dec 2025 08:58 am

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 15:13 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑20 Dec 2025 15:02 pm Beltran (4th year) 77.8%
Andrew Jones (9th) 77.8%

Utley (3rd) 58.3%
Felix Hernandez (2nd) 52.8%
Abreu (7th) 41.7%

None of them are Hall of Famers but the watered down Hall will put one or two of them in.

Cheating scandal aside, why do you think Carlos Beltran is not a HOF player? His counting stats are there. He was a top 10 player in the league for a decade. Perhaps not the best player in the league or at his position, but elite for a long time.

Well aside for him already being passed over three times, his counting stats are NOT there Hall of Fame wise:

-He didn't hit 500 HR's

-He didn't have 3,000 hits

-.279 .350 .486 .837 isn't a Hall of Fame worthy slash (IMO)

-Neither is his 119 OPS+/118 wRC+

-The only major award he ever won was ROY

As you can see, his JAWS falls just short of Hall Level:
WS
Center Field (9th):
Beltran 70.0 career WAR | 44.4 7yr-peak WAR | 57.2 JAWS | 4.4 WAR/162
Average HOF CF (out of 19):
71.3 career WAR | 44.6 7yr-peak WAR | 58.0 JAWS | 5.4 WAR/162

-I also don't rule out being a PED abuser as well, especially given we know he's wide open to cheating.


-He was a nine time all-star which is Hall of Fame level

-And his 67.4 fWar is impressive

Like I said, two (other A. Jones) will likely get into the watered down Hall and he could be one but he's a Hall of Very, Very Good which is JMO.

You're right, it's true, the hall of fame is getting watered down and the stats of old are not really matched (500 Hrs 3000 hits etc). It's because the game is becoming more and more specialized. It's getting harder to compete at those levels due to the combination specialized talent and an importance to constantly find better players.

Beltran had both longevity and a decent peak in the modern game, has decent counting stats and was considered a star in his time. Like 300 wins, you can't really compare these players to those of a different generation.

I think it's also because star players, those likely to become Hall of Famers, are making SO MUCH MONEY NOW that SOME don't need to put in the 15-20 year careers and fall short of those tradition (500 HR's, 3000 hits, 300 wins, ect...) Hall of Fame numbers.

But this is what makes baseball the best, we can have these types of debates!

And as always I respect those who's opinions differ from mine Ike.

I'd be throwing out a whole lot of players who've been inducted the last decade who (IMO) aren't Hall of Famers.

You're so cool and I love your honest/ humble mindset, I want to root for you. I respect your view and would like to support your beliefs on who should get into the Hall. I think Beltran shouldn't be a top teir first ballot HOFer but mid teir (where he is now) based on the changing circumstances. To me, if, Wille Mays, Al Kaline or Andre Dawson played in today's game, they wouldn't be any better. The dude put in 20 years of quality and star play. Just to even last 20 years at all star caliber play is worthy to me.