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Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 09:09 am
by Cranny
Web7 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 06:54 am
The incompetence of this ownership is very scary
Maybe, perhaps, just a shot in the dark, they wanted Bloom to be in charge and in full control for the rebuild. Ya think?
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 09:21 am
by Ozziesfan41
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 08:39 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 08:31 am
Web7 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 06:54 am
The incompetence of this ownership is very scary
2023: came out of nowhere
2024: actually competed, but couldn’t make up for the regressions of JW, NA and PG.
2025: only signed Maton. Sell off at the deadline.
The cards already started a rebuild about a year ago.
But since offseason 2022 (three years ago), the team has only given up two draft picks (WC, SG), but have accumulated a lot since then.
And if they trade WC, then those draft picks they gave up will be a wash.
Meaning they have only accumulated prospects the last three years.
I'd point out that 2022, when both Arenado at age 31 (7.2 fWAR) and Goldschmidt at age 34 (6.8 fWAR) had outlier "career years" (along with Pujols' unexpected contributions) to carry the team to maybe six more regular seasons wins than expected, was the season that came out of nowhere.
2023, if we consider Arenado going from 4.3 fWAR in 2021 to 2.7 fWAR in 2023 and Goldschmidt going from 4.8 fWAR in 2021 to 3.4 fWAR in 2023, was actually more predictable.
The Cardinals convinced themselves that all could be made right in 2024 instead of selling off heavily in 2023 like they should have.
You beat me to it lol it took MVP caliber seasons from goldy and arenado and a magical second half run from
Pujols in 2022 pujols was gone in 2023 and there was very little chance arenado and goldy would have repeat seasons like that so I expected a big drop off and then 2024 lol signing Gibson and Lynn anyone who looked at the team objectively knew those weren’t moves that were going to win anything it was just another desperate attempt to sustain mediocrity then 2025 mo doubled down on dumb by not trading Fedde and helsley in the off season in a desperate attempt to throw a Hail Mary then predictably when that stupidity failed had to dump Fedde for nothing and sell lower on helsley
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 09:26 am
by mattmitchl44
Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:21 am
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 08:39 am
ecleme22 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 08:31 am
Web7 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 06:54 am
The incompetence of this ownership is very scary
2023: came out of nowhere
2024: actually competed, but couldn’t make up for the regressions of JW, NA and PG.
2025: only signed Maton. Sell off at the deadline.
The cards already started a rebuild about a year ago.
But since offseason 2022 (three years ago), the team has only given up two draft picks (WC, SG), but have accumulated a lot since then.
And if they trade WC, then those draft picks they gave up will be a wash.
Meaning they have only accumulated prospects the last three years.
I'd point out that 2022, when both Arenado at age 31 (7.2 fWAR) and Goldschmidt at age 34 (6.8 fWAR) had outlier "career years" (along with Pujols' unexpected contributions) to carry the team to maybe six more regular seasons wins than expected, was the season that came out of nowhere.
2023, if we consider Arenado going from 4.3 fWAR in 2021 to 2.7 fWAR in 2023 and Goldschmidt going from 4.8 fWAR in 2021 to 3.4 fWAR in 2023, was actually more predictable.
The Cardinals convinced themselves that all could be made right in 2024 instead of selling off heavily in 2023 like they should have.
You beat me to it lol it took MVP caliber seasons from goldy and arenado and a magical second half run from
Pujols in 2022 pujols was gone in 2023 and there was very little chance arenado and goldy would have repeat seasons like that so I expected a big drop off and then 2024 lol signing Gibson and Lynn anyone who looked at the team objectively knew those weren’t moves that were going to win anything it was just another desperate attempt to sustain mediocrity then 2025 mo doubled down on dumb by not trading Fedde and helsley in the off season in a desperate attempt to throw a Hail Mary then predictably when that stupidity failed had to dump Fedde for nothing and sell lower on helsley
Yeah - it is somewhat scary that the CT faction that insists that the Cardinals should "just" go sign Valdez, Schwarber, etc. and "try to compete" in 2026 don't see that that is the same, failed strategy they tried in 2024, 2025, etc. when they didn't have an adequate foundation of young talent then either.
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 09:57 am
by Mort Gage
In '21 Cardinal pitching was so thin they had to acquire two starting pitchers at the deadline. Same in '22. After '23 they had to sign three FA starters. They should have realized the model was broken and gauged Goldschmidt and Arenado's willingness to waive their NTCs in mid-23. It was clear by then those two had taken the Cards as far as they could.
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 10:15 am
by 45s
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 08:46 am
OldRed wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 08:41 am
2023 they were 71 - 91 and finished 21 games out of first.
THIS is when the so called rebuild should have started. Also, this is when attendance begam to decline.
While true, many of the same CT posters who complain about a rebuild now would have burning effigies of Mozeliak if he had dared to trade away "their stars" - Goldschmidt, Arenado, Contreras, etc. - in 2023 instead of "trying to compete" in 2024.
Along those lines…
How much time and money was wasted on wainwright and molina?
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 10:23 am
by Red7
The Cardinals are in this fix because highly rated (not just by the team, but by the industry) prospects like Gorman, Walker, Reyes and to an extent, Flaherty did not develop. Arenado’s sharp and premature decline is also a factor. There are plenty of players Arenado’s and Goldschmidt’s age and older still producing at a high level. Finally, the reluctance of management to finish the job, to push that financial envelope just $10-15 million more in some cases.
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 11:01 am
by RamFan08NY
Ownership trusted the nonsense that their POBO was selling them. Now they have a guy confirming to ownership that the model was all wrong. Time to forget the past and embrace the teardown. Going to be fun watching the youth movement rebuild.
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 11:02 am
by Red Bird Classic
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 08:22 am
They kept trying to patch the ML roster to "compete" (what many here continue to call for) until they just couldn't any longer.
As noted long ago, they should have traded Goldschmidt and Arenado at back in July 2023 and started the rebuild at that point.
I'd argue that trading for Arenado in 2020 was part of the problem. The team probably should have been rebuilt before Ozuna and before Fowler. Each of those moves was part of the patch-up-and-delay-the-inevitable problem.
But all that is ancient history. Hopefully the FO will proceed now at full speed with a rebuild and the team can win a WS before we're all dead.
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 11:04 am
by Carp4Cy
Cranny wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:09 am
Web7 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 06:54 am
The incompetence of this ownership is very scary
Maybe, perhaps, just a shot in the dark, they wanted Bloom to be in charge and in full control for the rebuild. Ya think?
And BDW could have fired Mo a full year earlier effective immediately when he decided to install Bloom instead of giving him a wasted year of runway. That handling was a massive missed opportunity.
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 11:07 am
by Carp4Cy
Red Bird Classic wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 11:02 am
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 08:22 am
They kept trying to patch the ML roster to "compete" (what many here continue to call for) until they just couldn't any longer.
As noted long ago, they should have traded Goldschmidt and Arenado at back in July 2023 and started the rebuild at that point.
I'd argue that trading for Arenado in 2020 was part of the problem. The team probably should have been rebuilt before Ozuna and before Fowler. Each of those moves was part of the patch-up-and-delay-the-inevitable problem.
But all that is ancient history. Hopefully the FO will proceed now at full speed with a rebuild and the team can win a WS before we're all dead.
Hopefully, I've still got plenty of years, but some of us will be dead before then. The average age on this board is not favorable.
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 11:28 am
by Cranny
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 11:04 am
Cranny wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:09 am
Web7 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 06:54 am
The incompetence of this ownership is very scary
Maybe, perhaps, just a shot in the dark, they wanted Bloom to be in charge and in full control for the rebuild. Ya think?
And BDW could have fired Mo a full year earlier effective immediately when he decided to install Bloom instead of giving him a wasted year of runway. That handling was a massive missed opportunity.
Just being loyal to a long time friend who had helped bring winning seasons for many years.
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 11:57 am
by JuanAgosto
OldRed wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 07:01 am
Web7 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 06:54 am
The incompetence of this ownership is very scary
I've said this all along. Why did they wait? They didn't let it bother them until attendance dropped. NOW it is the big overdue rebuild.
Two factors play into the timing. 1. Billy made the move once attendance dropped. Proves he is only concerned about the $ at this point. And 2. John Mozeliak was an inept POBO who didn't know how to change strategy. His career was built on the work of others. He was clueless about talent evaluation and worthless at fixing the real issues. Thankfully, DeWitt was smart enough to let Bloom orchestrate the rebuild.
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 12:05 pm
by OldRed
Cranny wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 11:28 am
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 11:04 am
Cranny wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:09 am
Web7 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 06:54 am
The incompetence of this ownership is very scary
Maybe, perhaps, just a shot in the dark, they wanted Bloom to be in charge and in full control for the rebuild. Ya think?
And BDW could have fired Mo a full year earlier effective immediately when he decided to install Bloom instead of giving him a wasted year of runway. That handling was a massive missed opportunity.
Just being loyal to a long time friend who had helped bring winning seasons for many years.
You and Mr. DeWitt?
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 12:11 pm
by Cardinals4Life
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:08 am
Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:04 am
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 08:22 am
They kept trying to patch the ML roster to "compete" (what many here continue to call for) until they just couldn't any longer.
As noted long ago, they should have traded Goldschmidt and Arenado at back in July 2023 and started the rebuild at that point.
No. The problem wasn't "patching". Teams always have to do this. The problem was cheap patching. Period.
They got Gray going into 2024, which was very much NOT a cheap patch. Once that - along with still having to pay Arenado, Goldschmidt, Contreras, Mikolas, etc., there was no other serious option than some "cheaper patching" for the many other inadequacies on the roster.
Thats a false narrative that there weren't any other options than cheap c r a p.
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 12:24 pm
by mattmitchl44
Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 12:11 pm
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:08 am
Cardinals4Life wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:04 am
mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 08:22 am
They kept trying to patch the ML roster to "compete" (what many here continue to call for) until they just couldn't any longer.
As noted long ago, they should have traded Goldschmidt and Arenado at back in July 2023 and started the rebuild at that point.
No. The problem wasn't "patching". Teams always have to do this. The problem was cheap patching. Period.
They got Gray going into 2024, which was very much NOT a cheap patch. Once that - along with still having to pay Arenado, Goldschmidt, Contreras, Mikolas, etc., there was no other serious option than some "cheaper patching" for the many other inadequacies on the roster.
Thats a false narrative that there weren't any other options than cheap c r a p.
When they had like $100, $110, etc. million tied up in five players, not a lot of flexibility in filling out the other 21.
Re: After 3 awful years now the cards want to rebuild lol
Posted: 04 Dec 2025 12:54 pm
by rockondlouie
OldRed wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 12:05 pm
Cranny wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 11:28 am
Carp4Cy wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 11:04 am
Cranny wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 09:09 am
Web7 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2025 06:54 am
The incompetence of this ownership is very scary
Maybe, perhaps, just a shot in the dark, they wanted Bloom to be in charge and in full control for the rebuild. Ya think?
And BDW could have fired Mo a full year earlier effective immediately when he decided to install Bloom instead of giving him a wasted year of runway. That handling was a massive missed opportunity.
Just being loyal to a long time friend who had helped bring winning seasons for many years.
You and Mr. DeWitt?
I think he was referring to BDWJr being loyal to Mo.
And that was a huge mistake, Dewitt should've fired Mo years ago before the team fell on hard times and attendance cratered.