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WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

2 years for Gallen isn't going to do us any good for the rebuild either. He'll be gone before the rebuild is done. You'd be spending a bunch of money to go from 75 wins to 82 wins, still miss the playoffs, and get worse draft picks.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:41 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

2 years for Gallen isn't going to do us any good for the rebuild either. He'll be gone before the rebuild is done. You'd be spending a bunch of money to go from 75 wins to 82 wins, still miss the playoffs, and get worse draft picks.

Two yrs/$50M with the potential to EXTEND him before 2027 when the re-build should be completed, the new CBA is in place and BDWJr raising the payroll significantly.

And you want to keep Gray at $40M, miss the playoffs and not have his replacement like Gallen would be.

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 12:10 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:41 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

2 years for Gallen isn't going to do us any good for the rebuild either. He'll be gone before the rebuild is done. You'd be spending a bunch of money to go from 75 wins to 82 wins, still miss the playoffs, and get worse draft picks.

Two yrs/$50M with the potential to EXTEND him before 2027 when the re-build should be completed, the new CBA is in place and BDWJr raising the payroll significantly.

And you want to keep Gray at $40M, miss the playoffs and not have his replacement like Gallen would be.

You've created a false dichotomy - SG or ZG when the correct answer is neither. I also didn't say I want to keep Gray. They should move Gray. But then not turn around and spend all the savings on a potential FOTR when they aren't trying to contend in 2026 (and probably not 2027). That's illogical. If you want an expensive FOTR starter on the payroll, they already have one. No need to make moves to sub one for another.

Yes, SG is older. But he's still outperformed ZG by every measure the past 3 years. It's not a long term commitment with his remaining 1 year under contract so his age isn't that relevant. Unlikely he completely falls to replacement player level in one year. But again, I'm hoping another team takes that risk.

You can keep arguing that Gallen is better than Gray, but you'll continue to be wrong. Gray was still good in 2025, Gallen was not. How do you know he'll rebound? You don't. Gray staying good is sooo much more projectable than ZG rebounding even with the age difference.

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 12:10 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:41 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

2 years for Gallen isn't going to do us any good for the rebuild either. He'll be gone before the rebuild is done. You'd be spending a bunch of money to go from 75 wins to 82 wins, still miss the playoffs, and get worse draft picks.

Two yrs/$50M with the potential to EXTEND him before 2027 when the re-build should be completed, the new CBA is in place and BDWJr raising the payroll significantly.

And you want to keep Gray at $40M, miss the playoffs and not have his replacement like Gallen would be.

You've created a false dichotomy - SG or ZG when the correct answer is neither. I also didn't say I want to keep Gray. They should move Gray. But then not turn around and spend all the savings on a potential FOTR when they aren't trying to contend in 2026 (and probably not 2027). That's illogical. If you want an expensive FOTR starter on the payroll, they already have one. No need to make moves to sub one for another.

Yes, SG is older. But he's still outperformed ZG by every measure the past 3 years. It's not a long term commitment with his remaining 1 year under contract so his age isn't that relevant. Unlikely he completely falls to replacement player level in one year. But again, I'm hoping another team takes that risk.

You can keep arguing that Gallen is better than Gray, but you'll continue to be wrong. Gray was still good in 2025, Gallen was not. How do you know he'll rebound? You don't. Gray staying good is sooo much more projectable than ZG rebounding even with the age difference.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 12:21 pm

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 12:10 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:41 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

2 years for Gallen isn't going to do us any good for the rebuild either. He'll be gone before the rebuild is done. You'd be spending a bunch of money to go from 75 wins to 82 wins, still miss the playoffs, and get worse draft picks.

Two yrs/$50M with the potential to EXTEND him before 2027 when the re-build should be completed, the new CBA is in place and BDWJr raising the payroll significantly.

And you want to keep Gray at $40M, miss the playoffs and not have his replacement like Gallen would be.

You've created a false dichotomy - SG or ZG when the correct answer is neither. I also didn't say I want to keep Gray. They should move Gray. But then not turn around and spend all the savings on a potential FOTR when they aren't trying to contend in 2026 (and probably not 2027). That's illogical. If you want an expensive FOTR starter on the payroll, they already have one. No need to make moves to sub one for another.

Yes, SG is older. But he's still outperformed ZG by every measure the past 3 years. It's not a long term commitment with his remaining 1 year under contract so his age isn't that relevant. Unlikely he completely falls to replacement player level in one year. But again, I'm hoping another team takes that risk.

You can keep arguing that Gallen is better than Gray, but you'll continue to be wrong. Gray was still good in 2025, Gallen was not. How do you know he'll rebound? You don't. Gray staying good is sooo much more projectable than ZG rebounding even with the age difference.

No I haven't at all.

I simply posted of the listed FA's Gallen is the one I'd love to see us go after IF Bloom trades Gray.

You then came in and ignored the fact that Gallen at age 30 and an equal talent wasn't an upgrade over the 36 year old Gray.

And you continue to look BACKWARD when you need to be looking to the future, aka the RE-BUILD.

But I'll play that game to and if we throw out both Gallen & Gray's 2025 (bad for both) and focus on 2022 - 2024, here's how they compare:

Gray
84 GS
3.24 ERA
1.12 WHiP

Gallen
93 GS
3.20 ERA
1.09 WHiP

The difference again is in 2026 Gallen will be 30 years old and Gray will be 36 years old.

Gray is NOT the future or part of the RE-BUILD, Gallen could be.

Fun debate walt and always respect your opinions.

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 12:53 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 12:21 pm

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 12:10 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:41 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

2 years for Gallen isn't going to do us any good for the rebuild either. He'll be gone before the rebuild is done. You'd be spending a bunch of money to go from 75 wins to 82 wins, still miss the playoffs, and get worse draft picks.

Two yrs/$50M with the potential to EXTEND him before 2027 when the re-build should be completed, the new CBA is in place and BDWJr raising the payroll significantly.

And you want to keep Gray at $40M, miss the playoffs and not have his replacement like Gallen would be.

You've created a false dichotomy - SG or ZG when the correct answer is neither. I also didn't say I want to keep Gray. They should move Gray. But then not turn around and spend all the savings on a potential FOTR when they aren't trying to contend in 2026 (and probably not 2027). That's illogical. If you want an expensive FOTR starter on the payroll, they already have one. No need to make moves to sub one for another.

Yes, SG is older. But he's still outperformed ZG by every measure the past 3 years. It's not a long term commitment with his remaining 1 year under contract so his age isn't that relevant. Unlikely he completely falls to replacement player level in one year. But again, I'm hoping another team takes that risk.

You can keep arguing that Gallen is better than Gray, but you'll continue to be wrong. Gray was still good in 2025, Gallen was not. How do you know he'll rebound? You don't. Gray staying good is sooo much more projectable than ZG rebounding even with the age difference.

No I haven't at all.

I simply posted of the listed FA's Gallen is the one I'd love to see us go after IF Bloom trades Gray.

You then came in and ignored the fact that Gallen at age 30 and an equal talent wasn't an upgrade over the 36 year old Gray.

And you continue to look BACKWARD when you need to be looking to the future, aka the RE-BUILD.

But I'll play that game to and if we throw out both Gallen & Gray's 2025 (bad for both) and focus on 2022 - 2024, here's how they compare:

Gray
84 GS
3.24 ERA
1.12 WHiP

Gallen
93 GS
3.20 ERA
1.09 WHiP

The difference again is in 2026 Gallen will be 30 years old and Gray will be 36 years old.

Gray is NOT the future or part of the RE-BUILD, Gallen could be.

Fun debate walt and always respect your opinions.

You're one of my favorites, Rock. And usually we are in lock step with our ideas. But man, you're all over the place with this one.

First, you want to ignore 2025 in your evaluation of Gallen. Second, you quote 2019-2024 numbers to show how Gallen is an ace and is awesome. THEN when I show you how Gray has outperformed Gallen the past 3 years, you tell me to stop looking into the past and look to the future (guess that 2019-2024 evidence goes out the window too?). You're also using ERA and WHIP in your assessment like it's 1995...

Now it's all about the rebuild as if signing ZG for 2 years helps that cause. You know what doesn't help a rebuild? Signing a guy with a QO attached in year 1.... That right there disqualifies this whole idea.

Bloom: "Yes, Mr. Dewitt - I'd like you to eat $15m to trade Sonny so we can save $25m for this rebuild. Oh then I also want to give $22.5m of that savings to Gallen and cost us a draft pick."

Lately, go to Fangraphs and look and theirs and Steamers 2026 projections for Gray and Gallen. What do you know they don't as to who will be better in the future?

renostl wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:59 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

2 years for Gallen isn't going to do us any good for the rebuild either. He'll be gone before the rebuild is done. You'd be spending a bunch of money to go from 75 wins to 82 wins, still miss the playoffs, and get worse draft picks.

The guy seemed a bit bitter toward the Cards organization after he left.
I'd be surprised.

Agreement with ZG not a fit at 1-2 years but neither is SG and giving him $40 for 2025.
1-2 year contracts IMO, will lean cheap with an exception of flipping them, and then that is a dice roll
that you could do with SG.

Ranger looks better to me, if they are playing in that neighborhood.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 13:18 pm

renostl wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:59 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

2 years for Gallen isn't going to do us any good for the rebuild either. He'll be gone before the rebuild is done. You'd be spending a bunch of money to go from 75 wins to 82 wins, still miss the playoffs, and get worse draft picks.

The guy seemed a bit bitter toward the Cards organization after he left.
I'd be surprised.

Agreement with ZG not a fit at 1-2 years but neither is SG and giving him $40 for 2025.
1-2 year contracts IMO, will lean cheap with an exception of flipping them, and then that is a dice roll
that you could do with SG.

Ranger looks better to me, if they are playing in that neighborhood.

He didn't come across as bitter to me in the interview. He accurately described the dysfunctional nature of the Cardinal's minor league development. Unfortunately Marmol and some other coaches in St Louis were part of that.

He wanted to take some time off after the season to rest his body and the Cardinals wanted him to report to some sort of a training camp. He was more relieved to be out of that system than bitter. I'd be surprised if he wanted to return but for enough money he probably would. Regarding length of contract and amount he was the ace of the Arizona staff that won the NL. In August and September he posted 8 quality starts. I'll be very surprised if he doesn't get 4 or 5 years at a good salary.

renostl wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 13:49 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 13:18 pm

renostl wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:59 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

2 years for Gallen isn't going to do us any good for the rebuild either. He'll be gone before the rebuild is done. You'd be spending a bunch of money to go from 75 wins to 82 wins, still miss the playoffs, and get worse draft picks.

The guy seemed a bit bitter toward the Cards organization after he left.
I'd be surprised.

Agreement with ZG not a fit at 1-2 years but neither is SG and giving him $40 for 2025.
1-2 year contracts IMO, will lean cheap with an exception of flipping them, and then that is a dice roll
that you could do with SG.

Ranger looks better to me, if they are playing in that neighborhood.

He didn't come across as bitter to me in the interview. He accurately described the dysfunctional nature of the Cardinal's minor league development. Unfortunately Marmol and some other coaches in St Louis were part of that.

He wanted to take some time off after the season to rest his body and the Cardinals wanted him to report to some sort of a training camp. He was more relieved to be out of that system than bitter. I'd be surprised if he wanted to return but for enough money he probably would. Regarding length of contract and amount he was the ace of the Arizona staff that won the NL. In August and September he posted 8 quality starts. I'll be very surprised if he doesn't get 4 or 5 years at a good salary.

You've appropriately corrected me.
A bit bitter would more properly be frustrated.

Wouldn't be a surprise if he stays in AZ.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 22:30 pm Top 25 free agents and their contract projections according to Baseball America:

1) Kyle Tucker - 11 years / $360 million
2) Bo Bichette - 8 / 240
3) Framber Valdez - 7 / 220
4) Alex Bregman - 6 / 180
5) Pete Alonso - 7 / 175
6) Dylan Cease - 5 / 160
7) Shane Bieber - 5 / 150
Cody Bellinger - 6 / 175
9) Gleyber Torres - 7 / 160
10) Kyle Schwarber - 3 / 110
11) Edwin Diaz - 6 / 125
12) Munetaka Murakami - 7 / 140
13) Trent Grisham - 5 / 130
14) Trevor Story - 4 / 110
15) Michael King - 4 / 110
16) Eugenio Suarez - 3 / 75
17) Kazuma Okamoto - 5 / 85
18) Josh Naylor - 6 / 120
19) Ranger Suarez - 3 / 75
20) Devin Williams - 4 / 75
21) Brandon Woodruff - 1 / 27.5
22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45
23) Jack Flaherty - 3 / 72
24) Ryan Helsley - 4 / 170
25) Lucas Giolito - 3 / 65

smilinjoefission wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 14:20 pm

Youboughtit wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 22:30 pm Top 25 free agents and their contract projections according to Baseball America:

1) Kyle Tucker - 11 years / $360 million
2) Bo Bichette - 8 / 240
3) Framber Valdez - 7 / 220
4) Alex Bregman - 6 / 180
5) Pete Alonso - 7 / 175
6) Dylan Cease - 5 / 160
7) Shane Bieber - 5 / 150
Cody Bellinger - 6 / 175
9) Gleyber Torres - 7 / 160
10) Kyle Schwarber - 3 / 110
11) Edwin Diaz - 6 / 125
12) Munetaka Murakami - 7 / 140
13) Trent Grisham - 5 / 130
14) Trevor Story - 4 / 110
15) Michael King - 4 / 110
16) Eugenio Suarez - 3 / 75
17) Kazuma Okamoto - 5 / 85
18) Josh Naylor - 6 / 120
19) Ranger Suarez - 3 / 75
20) Devin Williams - 4 / 75
21) Brandon Woodruff - 1 / 27.5
22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45
23) Jack Flaherty - 3 / 72
24) Ryan Helsley - 4 / 170
25) Lucas Giolito - 3 / 65

24 gotta be 4/17 not 4/170

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 14:12 pm

renostl wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 13:49 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 13:18 pm

renostl wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:59 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

2 years for Gallen isn't going to do us any good for the rebuild either. He'll be gone before the rebuild is done. You'd be spending a bunch of money to go from 75 wins to 82 wins, still miss the playoffs, and get worse draft picks.

The guy seemed a bit bitter toward the Cards organization after he left.
I'd be surprised.

Agreement with ZG not a fit at 1-2 years but neither is SG and giving him $40 for 2025.
1-2 year contracts IMO, will lean cheap with an exception of flipping them, and then that is a dice roll
that you could do with SG.

Ranger looks better to me, if they are playing in that neighborhood.

He didn't come across as bitter to me in the interview. He accurately described the dysfunctional nature of the Cardinal's minor league development. Unfortunately Marmol and some other coaches in St Louis were part of that.

He wanted to take some time off after the season to rest his body and the Cardinals wanted him to report to some sort of a training camp. He was more relieved to be out of that system than bitter. I'd be surprised if he wanted to return but for enough money he probably would. Regarding length of contract and amount he was the ace of the Arizona staff that won the NL. In August and September he posted 8 quality starts. I'll be very surprised if he doesn't get 4 or 5 years at a good salary.

You've appropriately corrected me.
A bit bitter would more properly be frustrated.

Wouldn't be a surprise if he stays in AZ.

Do you think he will accept the qualifying offer and stay put? I think based upon the way he pitched in August and September someone will sign him for 4 years or so at good money but maybe he likes Arizona.

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 14:25 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 14:12 pm

renostl wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 13:49 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 13:18 pm

renostl wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:59 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

2 years for Gallen isn't going to do us any good for the rebuild either. He'll be gone before the rebuild is done. You'd be spending a bunch of money to go from 75 wins to 82 wins, still miss the playoffs, and get worse draft picks.

The guy seemed a bit bitter toward the Cards organization after he left.
I'd be surprised.

Agreement with ZG not a fit at 1-2 years but neither is SG and giving him $40 for 2025.
1-2 year contracts IMO, will lean cheap with an exception of flipping them, and then that is a dice roll
that you could do with SG.

Ranger looks better to me, if they are playing in that neighborhood.

He didn't come across as bitter to me in the interview. He accurately described the dysfunctional nature of the Cardinal's minor league development. Unfortunately Marmol and some other coaches in St Louis were part of that.

He wanted to take some time off after the season to rest his body and the Cardinals wanted him to report to some sort of a training camp. He was more relieved to be out of that system than bitter. I'd be surprised if he wanted to return but for enough money he probably would. Regarding length of contract and amount he was the ace of the Arizona staff that won the NL. In August and September he posted 8 quality starts. I'll be very surprised if he doesn't get 4 or 5 years at a good salary.

You've appropriately corrected me.
A bit bitter would more properly be frustrated.

Wouldn't be a surprise if he stays in AZ.

Do you think he will accept the qualifying offer and stay put? I think based upon the way he pitched in August and September someone will sign him for 4 years or so at good money but maybe he likes Arizona.

Cardinals will not give up any picks so if he was offered a QO they are out.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 14:12 pm

renostl wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 13:49 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 13:18 pm

renostl wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:59 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:36 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:33 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:27 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 11:04 am

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 09:30 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑07 Nov 2025 08:51 am 22) Zac Gallen - 2 / 45

I'd do that in a NY minute if S. Gray is dealt.

Assuming they're eating around $10-15m to move Gray (thereby saving $25-30m), wouldn't it make more sense just to keep Gray at that point than turning around and spending most of that savings into a lesser pitcher?

No walt (and Z. Gallen is NOT a lesser pitcher).

Sure he had a down 2025 but prior to that from 2019-2024 he posted: 143 GS/3.29 ERA/1.13 WHiP/9.8 SO9 and three Top 10 CY Young seasons or ACE stuff.

Gallen is going into his age 30 season and is a FOTR starter C. Bloom could build the starting rotation around, Gray is going into his age 36 season and near the end!

So you're going to ignore 2025 for Gallen but use 2025 as the sole data point of Gray? Got it.

Last 3 years of fWAR for each:

Gray
2025 - 3.6
2024 - 3.8
2023 - 5.4 (2nd in CYA)

Gallen
2025 - 1.1
2024 - 2.8
2023 - 5.2 (3rd in CYA)

Gray has literally been better each of the last 3 years... tell me again how Gallen is better? Who cares about 2019? (Btw Sonny finished ahead of Gallen in CYA that year too - 7th vs. no votes)

YES!

I'm NOT going to judge Gallen on one down season (2025) when he's poster SIX consecutive seasons where he was a top of MLB starter.

And again, YES I'm going to use Gray's AGE (not his stats).

Thirty year old FOTR starter -vs- a 36 year old near the end starter.

Which do you want for the Re-Build?

How can you not see this?

2 years for Gallen isn't going to do us any good for the rebuild either. He'll be gone before the rebuild is done. You'd be spending a bunch of money to go from 75 wins to 82 wins, still miss the playoffs, and get worse draft picks.

The guy seemed a bit bitter toward the Cards organization after he left.
I'd be surprised.

Agreement with ZG not a fit at 1-2 years but neither is SG and giving him $40 for 2025.
1-2 year contracts IMO, will lean cheap with an exception of flipping them, and then that is a dice roll
that you could do with SG.

Ranger looks better to me, if they are playing in that neighborhood.

He didn't come across as bitter to me in the interview. He accurately described the dysfunctional nature of the Cardinal's minor league development. Unfortunately Marmol and some other coaches in St Louis were part of that.

He wanted to take some time off after the season to rest his body and the Cardinals wanted him to report to some sort of a training camp. He was more relieved to be out of that system than bitter. I'd be surprised if he wanted to return but for enough money he probably would. Regarding length of contract and amount he was the ace of the Arizona staff that won the NL. In August and September he posted 8 quality starts. I'll be very surprised if he doesn't get 4 or 5 years at a good salary.

You've appropriately corrected me.
A bit bitter would more properly be frustrated.

Wouldn't be a surprise if he stays in AZ.

Do you think he will accept the qualifying offer and stay put? I think based upon the way he pitched in August and September someone will sign him for 4 years or so at good money but maybe he likes Arizona.