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sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:53 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:49 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:44 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:36 am

CCard wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:34 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:27 am

CCard wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:24 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

1. Scherzer
2.Verlander
3.Kershaw

In that order. For domination I'd give the edge to Gibson, Koufax and Marichal. Clemens takes a hit for supposed steroid cheating. Seaver, Carlton and Ryan are 1b though. I haven't looked up stats and all so maybe I'm off base.

I don't think steriods should factor.
I take Clemens, Johnson and Maddux.
I think Johnson may be best all time.

Better than Carlton as for lefties? If we're talking domination you have to look at Gibson's stats. They are unreal. Really though, when you talk about these guys it's like splitting hairs. We may never see their like again. Yamamoto looks to be of that ilk but he spent a lot of time not in the mlb.

I agree, it's a tough call.
Bulldog even mentioned how great Seaver was.
Hard to say.
This current group doesn't match up though in my opinion.
Yamamoto will not last long enough--I don't think so anyway.

Seaver pitched against Willie Mays. 24 AB 5 hits, I walk 9 K’s. And they were teammates.

I just looked at his stats.
Seaver was a beast.
Yeah, that would be a tremendous trio.

He had a couple nicknames- Terrible Tom and Tom Terrific.

Check out the level of disrespect they had for Tom in 1976.
He was 8th is CY voting!!!
I think they valued wins far too much back then.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/awar ... CYA_voting

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:58 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:49 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:44 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:36 am

CCard wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:34 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:27 am

CCard wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:24 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

1. Scherzer
2.Verlander
3.Kershaw

In that order. For domination I'd give the edge to Gibson, Koufax and Marichal. Clemens takes a hit for supposed steroid cheating. Seaver, Carlton and Ryan are 1b though. I haven't looked up stats and all so maybe I'm off base.

I don't think steriods should factor.
I take Clemens, Johnson and Maddux.
I think Johnson may be best all time.

Better than Carlton as for lefties? If we're talking domination you have to look at Gibson's stats. They are unreal. Really though, when you talk about these guys it's like splitting hairs. We may never see their like again. Yamamoto looks to be of that ilk but he spent a lot of time not in the mlb.

I agree, it's a tough call.
Bulldog even mentioned how great Seaver was.
Hard to say.
This current group doesn't match up though in my opinion.
Yamamoto will not last long enough--I don't think so anyway.

Seaver pitched against Willie Mays. 24 AB 5 hits, I walk 9 K’s. And they were teammates.

I just looked at his stats.
Seaver was a beast.
Yeah, that would be a tremendous trio.

My research shows Seaver and Gibby got together 11 times, 6 wins for Seaver, 3 for Gibby with two ND, and he beat Gibby five straight decisions.

Yeah, I think you are right.
I clearly underrated him.
Not sure if others do as well, but I sure did.
He was every bit as good as Clemens or better.

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:59 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:53 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:49 am

sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:44 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:36 am

CCard wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:34 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:27 am

CCard wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:24 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

1. Scherzer
2.Verlander
3.Kershaw

In that order. For domination I'd give the edge to Gibson, Koufax and Marichal. Clemens takes a hit for supposed steroid cheating. Seaver, Carlton and Ryan are 1b though. I haven't looked up stats and all so maybe I'm off base.

I don't think steriods should factor.
I take Clemens, Johnson and Maddux.
I think Johnson may be best all time.

Better than Carlton as for lefties? If we're talking domination you have to look at Gibson's stats. They are unreal. Really though, when you talk about these guys it's like splitting hairs. We may never see their like again. Yamamoto looks to be of that ilk but he spent a lot of time not in the mlb.

I agree, it's a tough call.
Bulldog even mentioned how great Seaver was.
Hard to say.
This current group doesn't match up though in my opinion.
Yamamoto will not last long enough--I don't think so anyway.

Seaver pitched against Willie Mays. 24 AB 5 hits, I walk 9 K’s. And they were teammates.

I just looked at his stats.
Seaver was a beast.
Yeah, that would be a tremendous trio.

He had a couple nicknames- Terrible Tom and Tom Terrific.

Check out the level of disrespect they had for Tom in 1976.
He was 8th is CY voting!!!
I think they valued wins far too much back then.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/awar ... CYA_voting

That stat also shows three Mets pitchers in the top eight of voting. Incredible.

Great thread topic!
Don’t really have time to give it justice.
My comment:
In my lifetime I would rate Koufax as the most dominant pitcher I had ever seen over a five year period.(1962-1966)
Cy Young 63/65/66.
Retired after 1966 with chronic elbow pain.
Has anyone else retired after winning back to back Cy Young Awards??
Imagine what could have been without the pain??

Agreed, Koufax is my number one. I remember seeing him pitch at Busch in 1965. Everybody was talking about him throwing another no hitter before the game. 95+ fastball and perhaps the best curveball of all time. Mays said Koufax had Roseboro tell him what was coming and he still couldn't hit it. His WS numbers are stunning.

Historic. They were kind of a bridge from a more artful pitching style to the high velocity raw power era. They balanced both perfectly with the control of their predecessors and the power of their contemporaries and were also workhorse types. I think they represent the peak of what you hope to develop in new pitching prospects. I’m not claiming they’re the best ever, but from an evolutionary standpoint, they represent the best of the best.

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:27 am Historic. They were kind of a bridge from a more artful pitching style to the high velocity raw power era. They balanced both perfectly with the control of their predecessors and the power of their contemporaries and were also workhorse types. I think they represent the peak of what you hope to develop in new pitching prospects. I’m not claiming they’re the best ever, but from an evolutionary standpoint, they represent the best of the best.

Longevity is impressive . Years ago pro bowler St. Louisan Nelson Burton Jr. Was asked what made a hall of fame bowler.
He said high performance over a long period of time.

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR

Wasn’t Clayton the only 1 to have an MVP out of the 3?

CCard wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:24 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

1. Scherzer
2.Verlander
3.Kershaw

I would argue you have this trio ranked backwards. I think recently bias has you forgetting how dominant Kershaw was that first 10 years. Won 3 CYA in 4 years, an MVP, and Triple Crown. Four other top 5 finishes. Five ERA titles. Verlander with a similar resume with the MVP, Triple Crown, and multiple ERA titles. Scherzer did none of those (just the 3 CYAs).

You can easily argue Verlander > Kershaw. Justin certainly had a longer peak (his CYAs were in 2011, 2019, and 2022...very spread out). But I'd say that Kershaw was more dominant within a 7+ year stretch that was unmatched by the others.

Alex Reyes Cy Young wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 12:11 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR

Wasn’t Clayton the only 1 to have an MVP out of the 3?

Clayton won the CYA, MVP, and Triple Crown in 2014. Justin did all of those things too in 2011. Max never won an MVP or Triple Crown (or even an ERA title).

Alex Reyes Cy Young wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 12:11 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR

Wasn’t Clayton the only 1 to have an MVP out of the 3?

Verlander and Kershaw, I neglect to add his above so thanks for the catch!

I also neglected to add Verlander's ROY award, the only one of the three to win it.

An Old Friend wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:55 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:29 am I can't believe Detroit had both Verlander and Scherzer and let them go.
Can you imagine how many WS they potentially could have.

They didn't win when they had them both along with Prince Fielder and Miguel Cabrera in their primes. Pretty crazy!

and Seattle had Johnson, ARod, Griffey, etc and couldn't even make the WS

This is one of my favorite non-action baseball photos, maybe second to Pujols grooming Stan before they rode around Busch. Same theme to both, the young stud and the lion in winter.

My all time top 10 in no particular order with the proviso that the bulk of the career was post Jackie Robinson:

Koufax #1
Spahn
Gibson
Seaver
Carlton
Maddux
Johnson
Martinez
Kershaw
Verlander

Just missed: Feller, Robin Roberts, Mad Max

WaltsSuccessor wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 12:34 pm

Alex Reyes Cy Young wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 12:11 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 11:54 am

Bully4you wrote: ↑06 Nov 2025 07:18 am Just curious where you all would rank this trio compared to say:

80's and 90's guys--Clemens, Johnson, Maddux
60's and 70's guys--Gibson, Koufax, Marichal
70*s and 80's --Seaver, Carlton, Ryan

Also, where would you rank each individually all time.

-I never saw him pitch but of that list I'd have to say S. Koufax was the most dominate.

-I'd also remove the PED freak R. Clemens and replace him with:

P. Martinez
219-100
2.93 ERA
1.05 WHiP
3154 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)

-As for the three actives or just retired, I'd rank them:

#1
C. Kershaw
223-96
2.53 ERA
3052 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (2 runner-ups)
79.1 fWAR

#2
M. Scherzer
221-117
3.22 ERA
1.08 WHiP
3489 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (1 runner-up)
73.5 fWAR

#3
J. Verlander
266-158
3.32 ERA
1.14 WHiP
3553 KO's
3 CY Young Awards (3 runner-ups)
MVP
84.3 fWAR

Wasn’t Clayton the only 1 to have an MVP out of the 3?

Clayton won the CYA, MVP, and Triple Crown in 2014. Justin did all of those things too in 2011. Max never won an MVP or Triple Crown (or even an ERA title).

Verlander and Clayton imo are 1 1a