Era committee HOF candidates'

[rbirules]

Probably? I don't know when you think/assume Bonds started taking steroids, but most people assume it was after the 2000 season (in 2001 he hit 73 HRs). IMO, he could have retired at any point in the mid to late 90s and would have been a slam dunk HOF inductee. Heck even after 1993 he was at 60 bWAR (good rule of thumb for HOR enshrinement) and had just won his third MVP (in a four year stretch). If he called it quits all of the sudden I think the voters would look at it as a top athlete walking away in his prime (actually just like Jordan suddenly retiring in 1993). After 2000, he was at 494 HRs and 471 steals, and 111.4 bWAR (if you care about such things).

You can do the same thing with Clemens IMO, whereas Sosa and McGwire's candidacy is built entirely on the back of steroid fueled achievements.

That was it rbis.

According to Bonds girlfriend he was irate at all the attention Big Mac/Sosa got after their steroid fueled 1998 season.

She said he knew (correctly) he was superior to both and said "E F F it" I'll show them.

Too bad, prior to starting on PED's he was already a 1st ballot HoFer:

1986-1999
445 HR
460 SB's
.288 .409 .559 .968

Second best all round player ever (?) behind W. Mays.

Yeah, he could have retired then, or just declined like a normal 35 year old, and he would have been a 1st ballot induction and an inner circle HOF. Instead he took PEDs and put up the best four year stretch since Babe Ruth ("video game numbers") in his late 30s.

[Ozziesfan41]

I think the only guys who have the stats for the Hall of Fame are the steroid guys. The other players were very good but do not have the numbers for the Hall of Fame in my opinion. Dale Murphy was an incredible player in his 20s but wasn't the same in his 30s.

Barry Bonds was his generation's Willie Mays type player. He probably would have made the Hall of Fame if he didn't start using steroids.

I personally enjoyed watching the guys on steroids. Baseball was more exciting for me with Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire and the rest of the guys on steroids. I do understand the other side though. As much as I enjoyed watching these guys play it was personally hard for me to see Bonds pass Hank Aaron's home run record.

Probably? I don't know when you think/assume Bonds started taking steroids, but most people assume it was after the 2000 season (in 2001 he hit 73 HRs). IMO, he could have retired at any point in the mid to late 90s and would have been a slam dunk HOF inductee. Heck even after 1993 he was at 60 bWAR (good rule of thumb for HOR enshrinement) and had just won his third MVP (in a four year stretch). If he called it quits all of the sudden I think the voters would look at it as a top athlete walking away in his prime (actually just like Jordan suddenly retiring in 1993). After 2000, he was at 494 HRs and 471 steals, and 111.4 bWAR (if you care about such things).

You can do the same thing with Clemens IMO, whereas Sosa and McGwire's candidacy is built entirely on the back of steroid fueled achievements.

Yea people assume they don’t know he could have been using them his entire career his entire career could have been built on them can’t trust a cheater leave all of them out

Yep, I'm fine with people viewing his accomplishments however they wish in light of what we are more certain of later in his career. I think it's clear he used starting in 2001, and going forward, before that I have no idea (just like I have no idea for 99% of baseball players in that era).

It’s definitely not clear when he started using them
McGwire was using them before he ever started hitting 70 home runs so you can’t say bonds didn’t start until he broke the record. He could have been using them the entire time that’s the problem when you cheat only the gullible and will believe you when you lie about when you started and defend your cheating

[rbirules]

I think the only guys who have the stats for the Hall of Fame are the steroid guys. The other players were very good but do not have the numbers for the Hall of Fame in my opinion. Dale Murphy was an incredible player in his 20s but wasn't the same in his 30s.

Barry Bonds was his generation's Willie Mays type player. He probably would have made the Hall of Fame if he didn't start using steroids.

I personally enjoyed watching the guys on steroids. Baseball was more exciting for me with Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire and the rest of the guys on steroids. I do understand the other side though. As much as I enjoyed watching these guys play it was personally hard for me to see Bonds pass Hank Aaron's home run record.

Probably? I don't know when you think/assume Bonds started taking steroids, but most people assume it was after the 2000 season (in 2001 he hit 73 HRs). IMO, he could have retired at any point in the mid to late 90s and would have been a slam dunk HOF inductee. Heck even after 1993 he was at 60 bWAR (good rule of thumb for HOR enshrinement) and had just won his third MVP (in a four year stretch). If he called it quits all of the sudden I think the voters would look at it as a top athlete walking away in his prime (actually just like Jordan suddenly retiring in 1993). After 2000, he was at 494 HRs and 471 steals, and 111.4 bWAR (if you care about such things).

You can do the same thing with Clemens IMO, whereas Sosa and McGwire's candidacy is built entirely on the back of steroid fueled achievements.

Yea people assume they don’t know he could have been using them his entire career his entire career could have been built on them can’t trust a cheater leave all of them out

Yep, I'm fine with people viewing his accomplishments however they wish in light of what we are more certain of later in his career. I think it's clear he used starting in 2001, and going forward, before that I have no idea (just like I have no idea for 99% of baseball players in that era).

It’s definitely not clear when he started using them
McGwire was using them before he ever started hitting 70 home runs so you can’t say bonds didn’t start until he broke the record. He could have been using them the entire time that’s the problem when you cheat only the gullible and will believe you when you lie about when you started and defend your cheating

Well Bonds' body changed drastically that off-season, that's the real indication, not the uptick in HRs.

McGwire hit 49 HRs as a rookie, but he was much thinner then (still had big arms though). Yes, you could still be using PEDs and be thin, lots of players that have been busted aren't hulking HR hitters. We'll likely never know the full breadth of PED usage in that era.

[Ozziesfan41]

I think the only guys who have the stats for the Hall of Fame are the steroid guys. The other players were very good but do not have the numbers for the Hall of Fame in my opinion. Dale Murphy was an incredible player in his 20s but wasn't the same in his 30s.

Barry Bonds was his generation's Willie Mays type player. He probably would have made the Hall of Fame if he didn't start using steroids.

I personally enjoyed watching the guys on steroids. Baseball was more exciting for me with Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire and the rest of the guys on steroids. I do understand the other side though. As much as I enjoyed watching these guys play it was personally hard for me to see Bonds pass Hank Aaron's home run record.

Probably? I don't know when you think/assume Bonds started taking steroids, but most people assume it was after the 2000 season (in 2001 he hit 73 HRs). IMO, he could have retired at any point in the mid to late 90s and would have been a slam dunk HOF inductee. Heck even after 1993 he was at 60 bWAR (good rule of thumb for HOR enshrinement) and had just won his third MVP (in a four year stretch). If he called it quits all of the sudden I think the voters would look at it as a top athlete walking away in his prime (actually just like Jordan suddenly retiring in 1993). After 2000, he was at 494 HRs and 471 steals, and 111.4 bWAR (if you care about such things).

You can do the same thing with Clemens IMO, whereas Sosa and McGwire's candidacy is built entirely on the back of steroid fueled achievements.

Yea people assume they don’t know he could have been using them his entire career his entire career could have been built on them can’t trust a cheater leave all of them out

Yep, I'm fine with people viewing his accomplishments however they wish in light of what we are more certain of later in his career. I think it's clear he used starting in 2001, and going forward, before that I have no idea (just like I have no idea for 99% of baseball players in that era).

It’s definitely not clear when he started using them
McGwire was using them before he ever started hitting 70 home runs so you can’t say bonds didn’t start until he broke the record. He could have been using them the entire time that’s the problem when you cheat only the gullible and will believe you when you lie about when you started and defend your cheating

Well Bonds' body changed drastically that off-season, that's the real indication, not the uptick in HRs.

McGwire hit 49 HRs as a rookie, but he was much thinner then (still had big arms though). Yes, you could still be using PEDs and be thin, lots of players that have been busted aren't hulking HR hitters. We'll likely never know the full breadth of PED usage in that era.

It still doesnt mean thats when he started. Different doses and different types produce different results. He could have been using the entire time. Rodriguez was apparently using them as early as highschool when in one summer he went from benching 100 to 300 lbs and he didnt become a massive muscle bound dude until later after he got to the majors so the change in size doesnt clear him of anything or pinpoint when he started using. He could have been mad about mcgwire so he upped the dosage a lot more started taking different kinds we will never know because you cant trust a cheater

[rbirules]

I think the only guys who have the stats for the Hall of Fame are the steroid guys. The other players were very good but do not have the numbers for the Hall of Fame in my opinion. Dale Murphy was an incredible player in his 20s but wasn't the same in his 30s.

Barry Bonds was his generation's Willie Mays type player. He probably would have made the Hall of Fame if he didn't start using steroids.

I personally enjoyed watching the guys on steroids. Baseball was more exciting for me with Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire and the rest of the guys on steroids. I do understand the other side though. As much as I enjoyed watching these guys play it was personally hard for me to see Bonds pass Hank Aaron's home run record.

Probably? I don't know when you think/assume Bonds started taking steroids, but most people assume it was after the 2000 season (in 2001 he hit 73 HRs). IMO, he could have retired at any point in the mid to late 90s and would have been a slam dunk HOF inductee. Heck even after 1993 he was at 60 bWAR (good rule of thumb for HOR enshrinement) and had just won his third MVP (in a four year stretch). If he called it quits all of the sudden I think the voters would look at it as a top athlete walking away in his prime (actually just like Jordan suddenly retiring in 1993). After 2000, he was at 494 HRs and 471 steals, and 111.4 bWAR (if you care about such things).

You can do the same thing with Clemens IMO, whereas Sosa and McGwire's candidacy is built entirely on the back of steroid fueled achievements.

Yea people assume they don’t know he could have been using them his entire career his entire career could have been built on them can’t trust a cheater leave all of them out

Yep, I'm fine with people viewing his accomplishments however they wish in light of what we are more certain of later in his career. I think it's clear he used starting in 2001, and going forward, before that I have no idea (just like I have no idea for 99% of baseball players in that era).

It’s definitely not clear when he started using them
McGwire was using them before he ever started hitting 70 home runs so you can’t say bonds didn’t start until he broke the record. He could have been using them the entire time that’s the problem when you cheat only the gullible and will believe you when you lie about when you started and defend your cheating

Well Bonds' body changed drastically that off-season, that's the real indication, not the uptick in HRs.

McGwire hit 49 HRs as a rookie, but he was much thinner then (still had big arms though). Yes, you could still be using PEDs and be thin, lots of players that have been busted aren't hulking HR hitters. We'll likely never know the full breadth of PED usage in that era.

It still doesnt mean thats when he started. Different doses and different types produce different results. He could have been using the entire time. Rodriguez was apparently using them as early as highschool when in one summer he went from benching 100 to 300 lbs and he didnt become a massive muscle bound dude until later after he got to the majors so the change in size doesnt clear him of anything or pinpoint when he started using. He could have been mad about mcgwire so he upped the dosage a lot more started taking different kinds we will never know because you cant trust a cheater

I agree with all that. We don't know, and we'll never know. We know Bonds' body changed a lot from 2000 to 2001. Did he start using? Did he start using different things than he was already using? Did he drastically change his dosages? Again we don't know. But this is the time period when it was clear that he used. That by no means is definitive of him starting to use PEDs in 2001, or rather does not mean that he didn't use anything prior to that.

McGwire looked different when he was younger, but he could have already been using in the late 1980s and didn't just start in the early 90s. Your A-Rod example is another good one.

[rockondlouie]

Probably? I don't know when you think/assume Bonds started taking steroids, but most people assume it was after the 2000 season (in 2001 he hit 73 HRs). IMO, he could have retired at any point in the mid to late 90s and would have been a slam dunk HOF inductee. Heck even after 1993 he was at 60 bWAR (good rule of thumb for HOR enshrinement) and had just won his third MVP (in a four year stretch). If he called it quits all of the sudden I think the voters would look at it as a top athlete walking away in his prime (actually just like Jordan suddenly retiring in 1993). After 2000, he was at 494 HRs and 471 steals, and 111.4 bWAR (if you care about such things).

You can do the same thing with Clemens IMO, whereas Sosa and McGwire's candidacy is built entirely on the back of steroid fueled achievements.

That was it rbis.

According to Bonds girlfriend he was irate at all the attention Big Mac/Sosa got after their steroid fueled 1998 season.

She said he knew (correctly) he was superior to both and said "E F F it" I'll show them.

Too bad, prior to starting on PED's he was already a 1st ballot HoFer:

1986-1999
445 HR
460 SB's
.288 .409 .559 .968

Second best all round player ever (?) behind W. Mays.

Yeah, he could have retired then, or just declined like a normal 35 year old, and he would have been a 1st ballot induction and an inner circle HOF. Instead he took PEDs and put up the best four year stretch since Babe Ruth ("video game numbers") in his late 30s.

Two things Barry always had, enormous talent and an equally enormous ego.

[makesnosense]

Assuming they’d never vote in a juicer (besides Bagwell, Biggio, Ortiz, Piazza, I-Rod and Thome) I have a good feeling about Dale Murphy finally getting in.

I'll try and remember this when people talk about Edmonds not making the Hall or when Molina and Pujols are mentioned.

[nighthawk]

Jeff Kent -- not the greatest glove at second base and his arrogance was legendary, but that seems to be a huge penalty to extract for a guy who among second basemen in the 154 years of baseball ranks first in homers, third in RBIs, fifth in doubles, 12th in runs scored and fourth in OPS among those with 3,000+ PAs.

Rod Carew was not a very good second himself, but he was a first ballot HOFer largely because of the 3,000 hits, six batting titles and .328 lifetime average. You know how many times he scored 100 runs? Once. You know how many times he drove in 100 runs? Once.

Jeff Kent scored 100+ runs three times and drove in 100+ runs eight times. Can you name the other HOF second basemen who drove in as many as 100+ runs eight times? Hornsby never did, Collins never did, Lajoie never did, Morgan never did. The closest appears to be Gehringer and Lazzeri with seven. Does Lazzeri strike you as a stellar fielder? Maybe they over looked that because he was generally a "swell guy."