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First we have to figure out why fans stopped attending games. I may be a tiny minority but the DH is the reason I won't watch baseball. For others it could be the change to the tv deal which requires a $20 per month subscription to watch something that used to be part of the basic package.

Two losing seasons in the last three years may be a factor but I don't think that's the biggest factor. We were 5 games over .500 at the all star break and attendance was poor.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 19:23 pm If we keep losing this could grow to 1.4 or 1.6m many of them might never come back which could prevent us from ever having enough revenue to spend on the free agents or extend the keepers that we need to actually win once we decide we are ready.

The fans came back in Houston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, etc. after they went through a multi-year rebuild and came out better for it.

Are Cardinals fans worse fans than Astros, Phillies, or Braves fans?

And, yes, the owners should be prepared to increase spending one year before they see a real uptick in attendance again.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 22:14 pm Here's what's going to happen:

Thay will trade:
1. Gray
2. Arenado
3. Willson (maybo)
4. Donovan (maybe)
5. Burleson (maybe)
6. Gorman (maybe)

With that, they will get some salary relief and add prospects. The best prospects they can get. They will be used for either future MLB prospects or trade bait. Also, they will grab 2-3 starters in FA to flip at the deadline and to eat innings.

From there, the team (along with the 2023 and 2025 sell off) will have prospects to to test on the MLB roster.

By 2027, the team will know what they have. Maybe they trade more at the 2026 TDL and the offseason.

By 2027, they will spend money.

It's not that hard to understand. I think, coupled with Bloom remaking the minors and the team being in a quasi rebuild for the last three years, it will flip around really soon (2027) to where we start becoming really competitive again...

JMO.

I agree and I don’t understand how baseball fans can’t see this and understand this. Quick fixes are not the way to go long term.
Spending money just to say we spent money is part of the reason we are in the position we are in now. Personally I will still go to games next year. You can find tickets at a reasonable price.
I’m looking forward to seeing young players given an opportunity.

One thing I would suggest to ownership though is offer more entertainment and promotions to try get more fans to the ballpark.
Whether that’s music/bands before and after the game. Discount tickets. I live close to Indianapolis, the AAA team has fireworks every Friday night I believe. Ownership needs to make going to the game exciting.

ecleme22 wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 22:14 pm Here's what's going to happen:

Thay will trade:
1. Gray
2. Arenado
3. Willson (maybo)
4. Donovan (maybe)
5. Burleson (maybe)
6. Gorman (maybe)

With that, they will get some salary relief and add prospects. The best prospects they can get. They will be used for either future MLB prospects or trade bait. Also, they will grab 2-3 starters in FA to flip at the deadline and to eat innings.

From there, the team (along with the 2023 and 2025 sell off) will have prospects to to test on the MLB roster.

By 2027, the team will know what they have. Maybe they trade more at the 2026 TDL and the offseason.

By 2027, they will spend money.

It's not that hard to understand. I think, coupled with Bloom remaking the minors and the team being in a quasi rebuild for the last three years, it will flip around really soon (2027) to where we start becoming really competitive again...

JMO.

You’re being generous with your time line.

2028 if most of 2027 is played.
2029 if most of 2027 is lost to lockout.

And that’s if Bloom pushes the correct buttons.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 06:30 am

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 19:23 pm If we keep losing this could grow to 1.4 or 1.6m many of them might never come back which could prevent us from ever having enough revenue to spend on the free agents or extend the keepers that we need to actually win once we decide we are ready.

The fans came back in Houston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, etc. after they went through a multi-year rebuild and came out better for it.

Are Cardinals fans worse fans than Astros, Phillies, or Braves fans?

And, yes, the owners should be prepared to increase spending one year before they see a real uptick in attendance again.

Just a caveat... those are all big cities. St Louis is dying.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 00:57 am

hmoss859 wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 22:37 pm 2026 is a throwaway season at MLB level

BDW digging in his heels in for 2027 lockout, he might sell after other owners cave to MLBPA

That could be another fatal mistake. It’s a lot easier to keep a customer/fan that it is to gain a new one after you’ve lost one.

If Bill throws away another season and loses more fans, he’s risking a death spiral.

I think by now everyone understands that you believe the organization should invest in top Free Agents this offseason.

You are going to be disappointed.

Bomber1 wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 07:26 am

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 00:57 am

hmoss859 wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 22:37 pm 2026 is a throwaway season at MLB level

BDW digging in his heels in for 2027 lockout, he might sell after other owners cave to MLBPA

That could be another fatal mistake. It’s a lot easier to keep a customer/fan that it is to gain a new one after you’ve lost one.

If Bill throws away another season and loses more fans, he’s risking a death spiral.

I think by now everyone understands that you believe the organization should invest in top Free Agents this offseason.

You are going to be disappointed.

So, you suggest competing with the Dodgers, Mets, etc. in the open FA market?

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 06:30 am

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 19:23 pm If we keep losing this could grow to 1.4 or 1.6m many of them might never come back which could prevent us from ever having enough revenue to spend on the free agents or extend the keepers that we need to actually win once we decide we are ready.

The fans came back in Houston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, etc. after they went through a multi-year rebuild and came out better for it.

Are Cardinals fans worse fans than Astros, Phillies, or Braves fans?

And, yes, the owners should be prepared to increase spending one year before they see a real uptick in attendance again.

Those are much bigger cities, which have the ability to draw casual fans from their massive MSAs by creating any level of excitment. STL has a much deeper ingrained fan base, but clearly they can be driven away, and I'm not convinced they will automatically come back. And we don't have structural population growth that can be convinced to become new fans to replace the ones lost. Hou and ATL are 2 of the fastest growing cities this century.

IndCard75 wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 06:40 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 22:14 pm Here's what's going to happen:

Thay will trade:
1. Gray
2. Arenado
3. Willson (maybo)
4. Donovan (maybe)
5. Burleson (maybe)
6. Gorman (maybe)

With that, they will get some salary relief and add prospects. The best prospects they can get. They will be used for either future MLB prospects or trade bait. Also, they will grab 2-3 starters in FA to flip at the deadline and to eat innings.

From there, the team (along with the 2023 and 2025 sell off) will have prospects to to test on the MLB roster.

By 2027, the team will know what they have. Maybe they trade more at the 2026 TDL and the offseason.

By 2027, they will spend money.

It's not that hard to understand. I think, coupled with Bloom remaking the minors and the team being in a quasi rebuild for the last three years, it will flip around really soon (2027) to where we start becoming really competitive again...

JMO.

I agree and I don’t understand how baseball fans can’t see this and understand this. Quick fixes are not the way to go long term.
Spending money just to say we spent money is part of the reason we are in the position we are in now. Personally I will still go to games next year. You can find tickets at a reasonable price.
I’m looking forward to seeing young players given an opportunity.

One thing I would suggest to ownership though is offer more entertainment and promotions to try get more fans to the ballpark.
Whether that’s music/bands before and after the game. Discount tickets. I live close to Indianapolis, the AAA team has fireworks every Friday night I believe. Ownership needs to make going to the game exciting.

Good for you. I live a lot further away, as do a lot of Cardinals fans. So I'll go watch them 1-3 times at Coors, but I'm not going to travel to STL to watch a team of minimum wage Nootbaars and Gormans. But if we upgrade enough to make the playoffs, I would definately try to fly in for a series - and I'd probably need to buy a new hat/Jersey. That's just the economics of a distributed fan base.

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 06:17 am First we have to figure out why fans stopped attending games. I may be a tiny minority but the DH is the reason I won't watch baseball. For others it could be the change to the tv deal which requires a $20 per month subscription to watch something that used to be part of the basic package.

Two losing seasons in the last three years may be a factor but I don't think that's the biggest factor. We were 5 games over .500 at the all star break and attendance was poor.

For me and many of us, its Mo and Oli's infuriating style and refusal to make some sound/popular decisions - like not signing/trading better pitchers years ago when we should have, standing pat and not improving on marginally decent rosters that had potential, pulling Q too early in game one then leaving Helsley in too long when he couldn't feel the ball. Not bringing up JJW just to play 40 man roster games with JAGs. Putting Taylor Motter on the roster 4 times in a row.

Mo is gone but Oli still isn't.

And I agree on the TV thing. I don't know the answer but Bloom must figure that out - that's his job and its critical that he shore up that revenue stream in a highly marketable (and non-frustrating) manner.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 06:30 am

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 19:23 pm If we keep losing this could grow to 1.4 or 1.6m many of them might never come back which could prevent us from ever having enough revenue to spend on the free agents or extend the keepers that we need to actually win once we decide we are ready.

The fans came back in Houston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, etc. after they went through a multi-year rebuild and came out better for it.

Are Cardinals fans worse fans than Astros, Phillies, or Braves fans?

And, yes, the owners should be prepared to increase spending one year before they see a real uptick in attendance again.

Those teams rebuilt before the days of the mega payrolls. It's much harder to rebuild now and compete afterward with a much lower payroll than a team like the Dodgers. And those teams spent money after rebuilding. Do you really have confidence that BDW Jr. or his idiot son will spend more after a rebuild before fans have returned? I don't.

Triple Sticks has even said that if fans don't show up, payroll will be reduced. And that has happened. So how are the fans going to come back before the product on the field gets better? And how is the product on the field going to get better if fans don't show up? This franchise under this ownership is now chasing its tail.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 08:55 am

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 06:17 am First we have to figure out why fans stopped attending games. I may be a tiny minority but the DH is the reason I won't watch baseball. For others it could be the change to the tv deal which requires a $20 per month subscription to watch something that used to be part of the basic package.

Two losing seasons in the last three years may be a factor but I don't think that's the biggest factor. We were 5 games over .500 at the all star break and attendance was poor.

For me and many of us, its Mo and Oli's infuriating style and refusal to make some sound/popular decisions - like not signing/trading better pitchers years ago when we should have, standing pat and not improving on marginally decent rosters that had potential, pulling Q too early in game one then leaving Helsley in too long when he couldn't feel the ball. Not bringing up JJW just to play 40 man roster games with JAGs. Putting Taylor Motter on the roster 4 times in a row.

Mo is gone but Oli still isn't.

And I agree on the TV thing. I don't know the answer but Bloom must figure that out - that's his job and its critical that he shore up that revenue stream in a highly marketable (and non-frustrating) manner.

Supposedly DeWitt and his son are in charge of financials and Bloom will operate within the budget given to him. My impression is DeWitt was negotiating the tv contract.

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 22:10 pm

Hazelwood72 wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 22:05 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 21:29 pm

butsir01 wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 21:14 pm If II & III continue to go beggar thy fans in ‘26, they will getexactly what they richly deserve attendancewise.

Expenses need to match or be less than revenues. Just like with any business.

Yet, the Cardinals were more profitable when they spent more on players. Losing a million fans really decreases revenues, no?

They spent on Goldy and Arenado. How’d that work out?

They had many sell outs.

Carp4Cy wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 08:43 am

IndCard75 wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 06:40 am

ecleme22 wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 22:14 pm Here's what's going to happen:

Thay will trade:
1. Gray
2. Arenado
3. Willson (maybo)
4. Donovan (maybe)
5. Burleson (maybe)
6. Gorman (maybe)

With that, they will get some salary relief and add prospects. The best prospects they can get. They will be used for either future MLB prospects or trade bait. Also, they will grab 2-3 starters in FA to flip at the deadline and to eat innings.

From there, the team (along with the 2023 and 2025 sell off) will have prospects to to test on the MLB roster.

By 2027, the team will know what they have. Maybe they trade more at the 2026 TDL and the offseason.

By 2027, they will spend money.

It's not that hard to understand. I think, coupled with Bloom remaking the minors and the team being in a quasi rebuild for the last three years, it will flip around really soon (2027) to where we start becoming really competitive again...

JMO.

I agree and I don’t understand how baseball fans can’t see this and understand this. Quick fixes are not the way to go long term.
Spending money just to say we spent money is part of the reason we are in the position we are in now. Personally I will still go to games next year. You can find tickets at a reasonable price.
I’m looking forward to seeing young players given an opportunity.

One thing I would suggest to ownership though is offer more entertainment and promotions to try get more fans to the ballpark.
Whether that’s music/bands before and after the game. Discount tickets. I live close to Indianapolis, the AAA team has fireworks every Friday night I believe. Ownership needs to make going to the game exciting.

Good for you. I live a lot further away, as do a lot of Cardinals fans. So I'll go watch them 1-3 times at Coors, but I'm not going to travel to STL to watch a team of minimum wage Nootbaars and Gormans. But if we upgrade enough to make the playoffs, I would definately try to fly in for a series - and I'd probably need to buy a new hat/Jersey. That's just the economics of a distributed fan base.

True that.

Please, don’t spend your money if the team is rebuilding.

The Cards have been in varying states of crisis for the last 5 years. Now Bloom is in charge and has a history of building sustainable franchises.

I picture the next five years being a lot more enjoyable and a lot less chaotic…

By........

-Weeding out the deadwood, players who have no business being in MLB

-Making SMART trades that garners prospects for the system as well as a major league player or two

-Sign LOW COST but solid players to fill in the gaps (and yes, this can be done), BDWJr likely will allow C. Bloom to spend any payroll relief savings he gets if he's able to deal NADO, S. Gray and/or WillyC.

May not be a lot of savings if BDWJr has to eat a lot of NADO & Gray's contract but should be enough to add a couple low cost FA's.

-Stay true to the LT vision and always be straight w/the fan base

Unlike some I think the 2026 Cardinals will be vastly better than the one we saw on OD 2025 (E. Fedde, M. Mikolas and A. Pallante out of the rotation, J. Walker in AAA where he belongs, JJW in the lineup at 2nd base ect.........).

I may be wearing my RedBird red glasses but I wouldn't put it past Bloom re-shaping a roster that competes in 2026.

OldRed wrote: ↑24 Oct 2025 09:06 am

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 22:10 pm

Hazelwood72 wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 22:05 pm

Cranny wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 21:29 pm

butsir01 wrote: ↑23 Oct 2025 21:14 pm If II & III continue to go beggar thy fans in ‘26, they will getexactly what they richly deserve attendancewise.

Expenses need to match or be less than revenues. Just like with any business.

Yet, the Cardinals were more profitable when they spent more on players. Losing a million fans really decreases revenues, no?

They spent on Goldy and Arenado. How’d that work out?

They had many sell outs.

And how many playoff wins?