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kyace wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 13:01 pm Nootbaar has to go. Yes, this MAY be the year he stays healthy and becomes a star player. This is his appeal. However history has shown he is most likely to underperform or is hurt at the deadline like this past year. At that point come next off season he’s a possible non tender guy. If they can get a decent return they need to move him. Some team now will still dream on the potential and offer a decent return.
I think it has reached a point where it is in all best interest to move him.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 13:12 pm

kyace wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 13:01 pm Nootbaar has to go. Yes, this MAY be the year he stays healthy and becomes a star player. This is his appeal. However history has shown he is most likely to underperform or is hurt at the deadline like this past year. At that point come next off season he’s a possible non tender guy. If they can get a decent return they need to move him. Some team now will still dream on the potential and offer a decent return.
I think it has reached a point where it is in all best interest to move him.

If a team in a rebuilding mode like the Cardinals are moving on from Nootbaar after the year he had in 2025, no team is going to feel compelled to offer them a decent return.

kyace wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 13:33 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 13:12 pm

kyace wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 13:01 pm Nootbaar has to go. Yes, this MAY be the year he stays healthy and becomes a star player. This is his appeal. However history has shown he is most likely to underperform or is hurt at the deadline like this past year. At that point come next off season he’s a possible non tender guy. If they can get a decent return they need to move him. Some team now will still dream on the potential and offer a decent return.
I think it has reached a point where it is in all best interest to move him.

If a team in a rebuilding mode like the Cardinals are moving on from Nootbaar after the year he had in 2025, no team is going to feel compelled to offer them a decent return.

A team that views him as a complimentary piece will. They will view it as a gamble worth taking. Say you don’t trade him and Noot has a great start next year and is the most popular player and best player on the team do you dare trade him at the trade deadline? How will the fans view that? Many will be demanding he be extended. I just think the demand will be there and he will be moved this offseason.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 08:49 am Gray - sell - Eat some salary if necessary to maximized getting prospect value back from a team looking to contend in 2026.
Arenado - sell - Same
Contreras - sell - Same

Donovan - sell - At least shop him to sell what teams are willing to give. More valuable to a contender than to the Cardinals in 2026 (and probably 2027).
Pages/Crooks - sell - Shop one of the catchers with Bernal and Rodriguez coming.

Winn - hold - Offer a longer term extension to try to lock him up through age 30.
Burleson - hold - Needs to find a home at 1B if Contreras is moved. Could even offer him a low $ longer term extension (4 yrs./$18 million, $4.5M AAV).
Herrera - hold - May not find a position, but his bat is interesting enough as a DH to keep. Could even offer him a low $ longer term extension (5 yrs./$25 million, $5M AAV).

Nootbaar - hold - Coming off his worst ML season, it would probably be selling low to move him this offseason. Give him a chance to reestablish himself in 2026 before making a decision.
Walker - hold - Same
Gorman - hold- Same

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 13:10 pm Regarding Nootbaar, if the Cardinals had an exciting, ML-ready OF prospect or two, you could make a case for moving on from Nootbaar to give them playing time in 2026. But, if they trade Donovan for value and make room for Burleson to move to 1B, the Cardinals have:

Walker
Scott
Nootbaar
Church

with not much behind them. For a team going nowhere in 2026, trading Nootbaar for nothing and signing a cheap FA OF on a 1-year deal doesn't make much sense, and the Cardinals are not likely going to invest big in any FA OF this offseason (nor should they).

Maybe if they get ML-ready OF prospects when they move Gray, Arenado, Contreras, Donovan, etc., they include Nootbaar. But otherwise they might as well play Nootbaar and hope he has a healthy bounce back year and is maybe worth something at the trade deadline.

Youboughtit wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 13:43 pm

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 08:49 am Gray - sell - Eat some salary if necessary to maximized getting prospect value back from a team looking to contend in 2026.
Arenado - sell - Same
Contreras - sell - Same

Donovan - sell - At least shop him to sell what teams are willing to give. More valuable to a contender than to the Cardinals in 2026 (and probably 2027).
Pages/Crooks - sell - Shop one of the catchers with Bernal and Rodriguez coming.

Winn - hold - Offer a longer term extension to try to lock him up through age 30.
Burleson - hold - Needs to find a home at 1B if Contreras is moved. Could even offer him a low $ longer term extension (4 yrs./$18 million, $4.5M AAV).
Herrera - hold - May not find a position, but his bat is interesting enough as a DH to keep. Could even offer him a low $ longer term extension (5 yrs./$25 million, $5M AAV).

Nootbaar - hold - Coming off his worst ML season, it would probably be selling low to move him this offseason. Give him a chance to reestablish himself in 2026 before making a decision.
Walker - hold - Same
Gorman - hold- Same

So you’re brining back everyone from the worst offensive OF in baseball? Good plan.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 11:05 am

JohnnyMO wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 09:59 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 09:18 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 09:13 am

Goldfan wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 09:08 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 09:03 am Gray - Trade
NADO- Trade
Donovan - Trade (C. Bloom's best trade piece)
Pages/Pozo - Trade (toss in, no value as stand alone's)

Contreras - hold (possible midseason trade)
Winn - hold (no long term deal until after the 2026 season)
Burleson - hold (no extension)
Herrera - hold (if he stays healthy and has a good year, then lock him up w/an extension after the new CBA is ratified)
Noot - hold (needed if Walker starts at Memphis where he belongs, midseason trade candidate?)
VSII - hold
Crooks - hold until one of the better prospects is ready
Gorman - hold (IF NADO is dealt, then he's OD 3rd baseman. IF NADO is still here-unlikely-then DH)
Saggese - hold, possible secondary part in any trade

Walker - AAA

Gorman, Walker, Noot should not be on the ML club. Suck the life out of the lineup. Call up a Kid, trade for a bat, just about any other option than watching those 3 underperform another year. Team need to stop with this “tryout philosophy” on the ML club…..HOPING that low talent somehow miraculously become a viable player. There is no upside here.

-Walker absolutely needs to start at Memphis.

-Gorman will be here unless both NADO and Donny aren't dealt (highly unlikely), I see Gorman being the OD 3rd baseman.

I'm not an anti-Noot guy GF, just frustrated like everyone w/his inability to stay healthy.

Right now you're getting pennies on the dollar back in value for him if he's dealt (Walker has very little trade value, Gorman just a bit more).

If Noot gets off to a hot start, then he'd be a solid mid season trade candidate unless the Cardinals are surprising us and in the race for the NLC.

JMO

I’m in the “turn the page” mode. Mo gone……and all his mistakes should be too. Again, theres no upside with those guys. Bring in fresh face

To say no upside on Walker is nuts at his age / experience. Gorman has done it before so we know he has upside. Noot is the only one a reasonable person could say lacks upside.

Do they need to be starting in the big leagues? Should they be traded? Those are questions worth debating. But upside is there.

Yeah, in 2023:

Nootbaar (age 25), .261/.367/.418, 3.1 fWAR in 503 PA
Gorman (age 23), .236/.328/.478, 2.3 fWAR in 464 PA
Walker (age 21), .273/.342/.455, 1.0 fWAR in 465 PA (pulled down by his defense in RF)

They looked like three future starters for years.

They may not recapture that productivity, but to say there is "no upside" or "no rebound potential" is overstating it.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 08:49 am Gray - sell - Eat some salary if necessary to maximized getting prospect value back from a team looking to contend in 2026.
Arenado - sell - Same
Contreras - sell - Same

Donovan - sell - At least shop him to sell what teams are willing to give. More valuable to a contender than to the Cardinals in 2026 (and probably 2027).
Pages/Crooks - sell - Shop one of the catchers with Bernal and Rodriguez coming.

Winn - hold - Offer a longer term extension to try to lock him up through age 30.
Burleson - hold - Needs to find a home at 1B if Contreras is moved. Could even offer him a low $ longer term extension (4 yrs./$18 million, $4.5M AAV).
Herrera - hold - May not find a position, but his bat is interesting enough as a DH to keep. Could even offer him a low $ longer term extension (5 yrs./$25 million, $5M AAV).

Nootbaar - hold - Coming off his worst ML season, it would probably be selling low to move him this offseason. Give him a chance to reestablish himself in 2026 before making a decision.
Walker - hold - Same
Gorman - hold- Same

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 13:10 pm Regarding Nootbaar, if the Cardinals had an exciting, ML-ready OF prospect or two, you could make a case for moving on from Nootbaar to give them playing time in 2026. But, if they trade Donovan for value and make room for Burleson to move to 1B, the Cardinals have:

Walker
Scott
Nootbaar
Church

with not much behind them. For a team going nowhere in 2026, trading Nootbaar for nothing and signing a cheap FA OF on a 1-year deal doesn't make much sense, and the Cardinals are not likely going to invest big in any FA OF this offseason (nor should they).

Maybe if they get ML-ready OF prospects when they move Gray, Arenado, Contreras, Donovan, etc., they include Nootbaar. But otherwise they might as well play Nootbaar and hope he has a healthy bounce back year and is maybe worth something at the trade deadline.

mattmitchl44 wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 08:49 am Gray - sell - Eat some salary if necessary to maximized getting prospect value back from a team looking to contend in 2026.
Arenado - sell - Same
Contreras - sell - Same

Donovan - sell - At least shop him to sell what teams are willing to give. More valuable to a contender than to the Cardinals in 2026 (and probably 2027).
Pages/Crooks - sell - Shop one of the catchers with Bernal and Rodriguez coming.

Winn - hold - Offer a longer term extension to try to lock him up through age 30.
Burleson - hold - Needs to find a home at 1B if Contreras is moved. Could even offer him a low $ longer term extension (4 yrs./$18 million, $4.5M AAV).
Herrera - hold - May not find a position, but his bat is interesting enough as a DH to keep. Could even offer him a low $ longer term extension (5 yrs./$25 million, $5M AAV).

Nootbaar - hold - Coming off his worst ML season, it would probably be selling low to move him this offseason. Give him a chance to reestablish himself in 2026 before making a decision.
Walker - hold - Same
Gorman - hold- Same

CCard wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 16:11 pm LOL...Trade your best pitcher and your best power bat. Brilliant. Go back to the strato-matic and play the gm game. To win you don't subtract from the on field talent, you add to it. Get a pitcher that you can put beside Gray. You know, a 1-2 punch for the rotation that gives them a fighting chance. Trim Noot, possibly Arenado and maybe Donny. Get a big bat for left field and see what happens. Also, this bullpen has to be better, devote some serious dollars to it. My only problem with trading Arenado would be that Gorman really didn't look good at the corner when I saw him. Donny doesn't have the power for 3rd base so who does that leave? The philosophy that mitch loves is to trade everyone away and play AAA players. A sure recipe for disaster. Scott and Walker should get better. If they don't....well...you probably are going to have a hole then. Burleson should be DH, especially against righty's. Herrera belongs behind the plate and could DH against tough lefty's that Burleson can't hit well. Ideally they would sign a big bat for left field that could take pressure off of Walker, Scott and Gorman. The usual formula is to have power at the corners and defense up the middle. We have the defense but are sorely lacking in the power dept. But....without a pitching upgrade it won't really matter.

CCard wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 16:11 pm LOL...Trade your best pitcher and your best power bat. Brilliant. Go back to the strato-matic and play the gm game. To win you don't subtract from the on field talent, you add to it. Get a pitcher that you can put beside Gray. You know, a 1-2 punch for the rotation that gives them a fighting chance. Trim Noot, possibly Arenado and maybe Donny. Get a big bat for left field and see what happens. Also, this bullpen has to be better, devote some serious dollars to it. My only problem with trading Arenado would be that Gorman really didn't look good at the corner when I saw him. Donny doesn't have the power for 3rd base so who does that leave? The philosophy that mitch loves is to trade everyone away and play AAA players. A sure recipe for disaster. Scott and Walker should get better. If they don't....well...you probably are going to have a hole then. Burleson should be DH, especially against righty's. Herrera belongs behind the plate and could DH against tough lefty's that Burleson can't hit well. Ideally they would sign a big bat for left field that could take pressure off of Walker, Scott and Gorman. The usual formula is to have power at the corners and defense up the middle. We have the defense but are sorely lacking in the power dept. But....without a pitching upgrade it won't really matter.

CCard wrote: ↑19 Oct 2025 16:11 pm LOL...Trade your best pitcher and your best power bat. Brilliant. Go back to the strato-matic and play the gm game. To win you don't subtract from the on field talent, you add to it. Get a pitcher that you can put beside Gray. You know, a 1-2 punch for the rotation that gives them a fighting chance. Trim Noot, possibly Arenado and maybe Donny. Get a big bat for left field and see what happens. Also, this bullpen has to be better, devote some serious dollars to it. My only problem with trading Arenado would be that Gorman really didn't look good at the corner when I saw him. Donny doesn't have the power for 3rd base so who does that leave? The philosophy that mitch loves is to trade everyone away and play AAA players. A sure recipe for disaster. Scott and Walker should get better. If they don't....well...you probably are going to have a hole then. Burleson should be DH, especially against righty's. Herrera belongs behind the plate and could DH against tough lefty's that Burleson can't hit well. Ideally they would sign a big bat for left field that could take pressure off of Walker, Scott and Gorman. The usual formula is to have power at the corners and defense up the middle. We have the defense but are sorely lacking in the power dept. But....without a pitching upgrade it won't really matter.