STLtoday.com

ecleme22 wrote: ↑13 Sep 2025 21:59 pm

12xu wrote: ↑13 Sep 2025 21:46 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Sep 2025 20:41 pm

brock118 wrote: ↑13 Sep 2025 19:46 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑12 Sep 2025 16:46 pm

brock118 wrote: ↑12 Sep 2025 16:02 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑12 Sep 2025 09:16 am .299 Avg
.387 OBP

Check these stats:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... mi01.shtml

Player A Minoso 1949-1964 (15 seasons): .299/.389/.460 .849 OPS 130 OPS+ 7 time All Star (I don't count double all star games as 2) 3 Gold Gloves (didn't start until 1957) 50.5 WAR

Player B: 17 seasons .296/.384/.436 .821 OPS 128 OPS+ 5 time all star 11 gold gloves 1 time MVP 60.4 WAR not in HOF

Both of these players are equally deserving (not to be in the HOF). Keith Hernandez was a very good ballplayer. Same 60.4 WAR as Jimmy Edmonds - but Jimmy had far more HRs and 8 GGs (in a much harder position).
There are a lot of guys in the HOF who should not be. Here's a list of 25. https://stadiumtalk.com/s/worst-mlb-hal ... 10714841b8

This list left off Harold Baines, but included Brock (45.3 WAR is 266th - because he didn't have power, RBI, and was a pitiful defender).

Yep I wasn't saying either deserve it, but they were similar if not Hernandez slightly better with WAR. I think Brock still deserves to be in the Hall of Fame he had 3000 hits and was the all time stolen base leader when he retired..that should get you in.

People who say Brock should be in are a perfect example of the sabermetrics crowd not understanding the game.

People who say Brock should NOT be in the HOF are almost always folks who did not see him play and how he completely effected every single game he played in. He compiled stats in 21 games in the World Series which are some of the best ever: 4 HR/13 RBI/14 SB/.391/.424/.655/1.079.
People who say Brock did not have power are strangely blind to the stats that show he hit 149 HR in his career, 66 of those in his prime (64-67) during an extreme pitcher dominant era. Brock hit one of the longest HR ever hit at the Polo Grounds in NYC. I have read posts on this forum from people calling Brock a "punch and judy hitter" which he never was.

Almost always, you bring in the sabermetrics toolbox to evaluate a player.

When a player gets 3000 hits, you open up your window and throw the toolbox out. When a player has more than 900 SBs? Definitely throw the toolbox out.

Lou is a 1st ballot.

12xu wrote: ↑13 Sep 2025 21:46 pm

ScotchMIrish wrote: ↑13 Sep 2025 20:41 pm

brock118 wrote: ↑13 Sep 2025 19:46 pm

ClassicO wrote: ↑12 Sep 2025 16:46 pm

brock118 wrote: ↑12 Sep 2025 16:02 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑12 Sep 2025 09:16 am .299 Avg
.387 OBP

Check these stats:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... mi01.shtml

Player A Minoso 1949-1964 (15 seasons): .299/.389/.460 .849 OPS 130 OPS+ 7 time All Star (I don't count double all star games as 2) 3 Gold Gloves (didn't start until 1957) 50.5 WAR

Player B: 17 seasons .296/.384/.436 .821 OPS 128 OPS+ 5 time all star 11 gold gloves 1 time MVP 60.4 WAR not in HOF

Both of these players are equally deserving (not to be in the HOF). Keith Hernandez was a very good ballplayer. Same 60.4 WAR as Jimmy Edmonds - but Jimmy had far more HRs and 8 GGs (in a much harder position).
There are a lot of guys in the HOF who should not be. Here's a list of 25. https://stadiumtalk.com/s/worst-mlb-hal ... 10714841b8

This list left off Harold Baines, but included Brock (45.3 WAR is 266th - because he didn't have power, RBI, and was a pitiful defender).

Yep I wasn't saying either deserve it, but they were similar if not Hernandez slightly better with WAR. I think Brock still deserves to be in the Hall of Fame he had 3000 hits and was the all time stolen base leader when he retired..that should get you in.

People who say Brock should be in are a perfect example of the sabermetrics crowd not understanding the game.

People who say Brock should NOT be in the HOF are almost always folks who did not see him play and how he completely effected every single game he played in. He compiled stats in 21 games in the World Series which are some of the best ever: 4 HR/13 RBI/14 SB/.391/.424/.655/1.079.
People who say Brock did not have power are strangely blind to the stats that show he hit 149 HR in his career, 66 of those in his prime (64-67) during an extreme pitcher dominant era. Brock hit one of the longest HR ever hit at the Polo Grounds in NYC. I have read posts on this forum from people calling Brock a "punch and judy hitter" which he never was.