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Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 12:14 pm
by An Old Friend
rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 12:11 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 11:54 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 11:09 am
Didn't give him time to develop. 
He's a one trick pony, never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter.
You don’t develop secondary pitches in the bullpen you rely on your best pitches. You develop your secondary pitches by starting in the minors and working on them he was rushed to the majors and thrown in the bullpen for four years so he was never able to develop those pitches
You do realize he wasn't drafted as a reliever and that he was a starter who made 31 minor league starts over two minor league seasons (not rushed), right?
Made ZERO starts above Single-A.
You can argue all that you want, but to suggest that he wasn't rushed is simply being dishonest with yourself and everyone else.
He didn't have the necessary secondary pitches to be successful in MLB and thus was converted (like many) into a RP.
He never had the secondary pitch quality to become a good major league starter, proven out by his terrible career 4.91 ERA when starting.
As ozzie said, that secondary pitch development often happens over many starts and innings as pitching prospects ascend towards the major leagues.
The Cardinals didn't do that with Hicks. You know that.
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 12:56 pm
by Quincy Varnish
An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 12:14 pm
rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 12:11 pm
Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 11:54 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 11:09 am
Didn't give him time to develop.
He's a one trick pony, never had the secondary pitches needed to be a starter.
You don’t develop secondary pitches in the bullpen you rely on your best pitches. You develop your secondary pitches by starting in the minors and working on them he was rushed to the majors and thrown in the bullpen for four years so he was never able to develop those pitches
You do realize he wasn't drafted as a reliever and that he was a starter who made 31 minor league starts over two minor league seasons (not rushed), right?
Made ZERO starts above Single-A.
You can argue all that you want, but to suggest that he wasn't rushed is simply being dishonest with yourself and everyone else.
He didn't have the necessary secondary pitches to be successful in MLB and thus was converted (like many) into a RP.
He never had the secondary pitch quality to become a good major league starter, proven out by his terrible career 4.91 ERA when starting.
As ozzie said, that secondary pitch development often happens over many starts and innings as pitching prospects ascend towards the major leagues.
The Cardinals didn't do that with Hicks. You know that.
I’d bet Rock could give us a long list of pitchers who have major league-ready offspeed pitches in A ball.
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 13:04 pm
by moose-and-squirrel
An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 12:11 pm
moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 09:41 am
An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 09:32 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 08:48 am
Where are all the Hicks lovers who argued w/many of us who tried to them he was NOT a quality starting pitcher?
Strawman.
The debate always came back to the Cardinals hijacking his development as a starting pitcher when they rushed him to the big league bullpen. He never had a chance to develop into a quality starting pitcher.
adam wainwright says hello
Adam Wainwright and his 135 - ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FIVE - minor league starts before his big league debut?
- 67 starts in Rookie + A Ball
- 27 starts in AA
- 41 starts in AAA
And you are suggesting that he was RUSHED to the big league bullpen? You're comparing him to Jordan Hicks who made 31 minor league starts?
- 31 starts in Rookie + A Ball
- 0 (ZERO) starts at any other level
Think before you speak next time.
And yet he was initially put in the pen begin his career. Didn't seem to affect him
Try not being an (donkey) next time
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm
by JohnnyMO
It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 13:26 pm
by Quincy Varnish
moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:04 pm
An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 12:11 pm
moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 09:41 am
An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 09:32 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 08:48 am
Where are all the Hicks lovers who argued w/many of us who tried to them he was NOT a quality starting pitcher?
Strawman.
The debate always came back to the Cardinals hijacking his development as a starting pitcher when they rushed him to the big league bullpen. He never had a chance to develop into a quality starting pitcher.
adam wainwright says hello
Adam Wainwright and his 135 - ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FIVE - minor league starts before his big league debut?
- 67 starts in Rookie + A Ball
- 27 starts in AA
- 41 starts in AAA
And you are suggesting that he was RUSHED to the big league bullpen? You're comparing him to Jordan Hicks who made 31 minor league starts?
- 31 starts in Rookie + A Ball
- 0 (ZERO) starts at any other level
Think before you speak next time.
And yet he was initially put in the pen begin his career. Didn't seem to affect him
Try not being an (donkey) next time
His career began in 2000, and he spent 6 years developing as a starter… 148 games started over that span.
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 13:29 pm
by Ozziesfan41
moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:04 pm
An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 12:11 pm
moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 09:41 am
An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 09:32 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 08:48 am
Where are all the Hicks lovers who argued w/many of us who tried to them he was NOT a quality starting pitcher?
Strawman.
The debate always came back to the Cardinals hijacking his development as a starting pitcher when they rushed him to the big league bullpen. He never had a chance to develop into a quality starting pitcher.
adam wainwright says hello
Adam Wainwright and his 135 - ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FIVE - minor league starts before his big league debut?
- 67 starts in Rookie + A Ball
- 27 starts in AA
- 41 starts in AAA
And you are suggesting that he was RUSHED to the big league bullpen? You're comparing him to Jordan Hicks who made 31 minor league starts?
- 31 starts in Rookie + A Ball
- 0 (ZERO) starts at any other level
Think before you speak next time.
And yet he was initially put in the pen begin his career. Didn't seem to affect him
Try not being an (donkey) next time
Yea and he had all of the starts in the minors to develop his secondary pitches so when he was thrown back in the rotation they were already ready. And Hicks had never started a game above A ball not a lot of starters could go from starting in A ball to starting in the majors and be successful especially after spending 4 years in the bullpen. Wainwright was far from rushed to the majors and thrown in the bullpen he got a full season at each level to develop as a starter. Hicks was rushed to the majors and thrown in the bullpen to compare the two is insane
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 13:42 pm
by Quincy Varnish
Ozziesfan41 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:29 pm
moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:04 pm
An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 12:11 pm
moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 09:41 am
An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 09:32 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 08:48 am
Where are all the Hicks lovers who argued w/many of us who tried to them he was NOT a quality starting pitcher?
Strawman.
The debate always came back to the Cardinals hijacking his development as a starting pitcher when they rushed him to the big league bullpen. He never had a chance to develop into a quality starting pitcher.
adam wainwright says hello
Adam Wainwright and his 135 - ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FIVE - minor league starts before his big league debut?
- 67 starts in Rookie + A Ball
- 27 starts in AA
- 41 starts in AAA
And you are suggesting that he was RUSHED to the big league bullpen? You're comparing him to Jordan Hicks who made 31 minor league starts?
- 31 starts in Rookie + A Ball
- 0 (ZERO) starts at any other level
Think before you speak next time.
And yet he was initially put in the pen begin his career. Didn't seem to affect him
Try not being an (donkey) next time
Yea and he had all of the starts in the minors to develop his secondary pitches so when he was thrown back in the rotation they were already ready. And Hicks had never started a game above A ball not a lot of starters could go from starting in A ball to starting in the majors and be successful especially after spending 4 years in the bullpen. Wainwright was far from rushed to the majors and thrown in the bullpen he got a full season at each level to develop as a starter. Hicks was rushed to the majors and thrown in the bullpen to compare the two is insane
…all because Mo thought the 2018 Cardinals didn’t need a bullpen.
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm
by ecleme22
JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm
It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.
Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm
by Quincy Varnish
ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm
JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm
It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.
Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.
He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 14:20 pm
by ecleme22
Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm
ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm
JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm
It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.
Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.
He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.
His first 12 starts of 2024 he was 4-2 with a 2.70 ERA
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 14:37 pm
by Quincy Varnish
ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:20 pm
Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm
ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm
JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm
It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.
Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.
He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.
His first 12 starts of 2024 he was 4-2 with a 2.70 ERA
Then what happened?
Pretty much what you’d expect from a guy adapting to starting in the major leagues, right?
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 14:49 pm
by ecleme22
Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:37 pm
ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:20 pm
Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm
ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm
JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm
It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.
Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.
He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.
His first 12 starts of 2024 he was 4-2 with a 2.70 ERA
Then what happened?
Pretty much what you’d expect from a guy adapting to starting in the major leagues, right?
So...did he have a second pitch or not?
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 15:02 pm
by Horseradish
Hicks went from A-ball to MLB because of a few good outings during the 2018 spring training. His development was short circuited because he had a dominating fastball/sinker and the ML bullpen was garbage. This is a perfect example of the mistakes STL made in promoting guys that weren’t ready because the ML roster was poorly constructed.
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 15:07 pm
by Quincy Varnish
ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:49 pm
Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:37 pm
ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:20 pm
Quincy Varnish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 14:13 pm
ecleme22 wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:53 pm
JohnnyMO wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:17 pm
It looked like the Giants had fixed him for a while, but at this point it’s tough to argue that he just is what he is and is never going to live up to his massive potential.
Well, he was really good with the Giants until he remembered he didn't get a chance to develop a secondary pitch 7 years earlier.
He wasn’t that good. Started off terribly this year, and the Giants had better options.
His first 12 starts of 2024 he was 4-2 with a 2.70 ERA
Then what happened?
Pretty much what you’d expect from a guy adapting to starting in the major leagues, right?
So...did he have a second pitch or not?
He’s had a variety of secondary pitches throughout his career. The Cardinals mostly limited him to fastball/slider when he worked out of the pen. That doesn’t mean he had
refined secondary pitches… it typically takes time to have command over them - time that he did not have, when the Cardinals chose to interrupt his development and rush him to the majors as a reliever.
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 15:09 pm
by Quincy Varnish
Horseradish wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 15:02 pm
Hicks went from A-ball to MLB because of a few good outings during the 2018 spring training. His development was short circuited because he had a dominating fastball/sinker and the ML bullpen was garbage. This is a perfect example of the mistakes STL made in promoting guys that weren’t ready because the ML roster was poorly constructed.
Hicks went from A ball to the majors because Molina and Matheny begged for it. Mo gave them a [shirt] bullpen, and it was obvious they needed another arm.
Re: jordan hicks
Posted: 05 Sep 2025 15:43 pm
by An Old Friend
moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 13:04 pm
An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 12:11 pm
moose-and-squirrel wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 09:41 am
An Old Friend wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 09:32 am
rockondlouie wrote: ↑05 Sep 2025 08:48 am
Where are all the Hicks lovers who argued w/many of us who tried to them he was NOT a quality starting pitcher?
Strawman.
The debate always came back to the Cardinals hijacking his development as a starting pitcher when they rushed him to the big league bullpen. He never had a chance to develop into a quality starting pitcher.
adam wainwright says hello
Adam Wainwright and his 135 - ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FIVE - minor league starts before his big league debut?
- 67 starts in Rookie + A Ball
- 27 starts in AA
- 41 starts in AAA
And you are suggesting that he was RUSHED to the big league bullpen? You're comparing him to Jordan Hicks who made 31 minor league starts?
- 31 starts in Rookie + A Ball
- 0 (ZERO) starts at any other level
Think before you speak next time.
And yet he was initially put in the pen begin his career. Didn't seem to affect him
Try not being an (donkey) next time
Not being an (donkey), but if someone makes a terrible comparison, I’m gonna call it out. And this was exactly that.