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OldRed wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:59 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:46 am Not a 1st ballot for sure.

There are only nine closers in: Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Mariano Rivera, and Billy Wagner

Chapman is borderline but he's got a shot down the line to get in.

Chapman has 359 saves. More saves than HOFers Wilhelm 228, Sutter 300, Gossage 310, and Fingers 341. He only needs 21 more to catch Eckersley.

Some on that list consistently managed 3 inning saves. The save has morphed into a 1 inning thing lately. The criteria for selection into the Hall may morph as well. I do think that Chapman will earn the HOF, but, like rock, not sure how long it might take on the ballot.

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 15:17 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:59 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:46 am Not a 1st ballot for sure.

There are only nine closers in: Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Mariano Rivera, and Billy Wagner

Chapman is borderline but he's got a shot down the line to get in.

Chapman has 359 saves. More saves than HOFers Wilhelm 228, Sutter 300, Gossage 310, and Fingers 341. He only needs 21 more to catch Eckersley.

Some on that list consistently managed 3 inning saves. The save has morphed into a 1 inning thing lately. The criteria for selection into the Hall may morph as well. I do think that Chapman will earn the HOF, but, like rock, not sure how long it might take on the ballot.

The criteria would have to change because there would never be any relievers in the hall of fame again because they don’t have 3 inning closers anymore. They will have to change the criteria for starters also since they are going toward the 5-6 inning starters now

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 15:17 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:59 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:46 am Not a 1st ballot for sure.

There are only nine closers in: Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Mariano Rivera, and Billy Wagner

Chapman is borderline but he's got a shot down the line to get in.

Chapman has 359 saves. More saves than HOFers Wilhelm 228, Sutter 300, Gossage 310, and Fingers 341. He only needs 21 more to catch Eckersley.

Some on that list consistently managed 3 inning saves. The save has morphed into a 1 inning thing lately. The criteria for selection into the Hall may morph as well. I do think that Chapman will earn the HOF, but, like rock, not sure how long it might take on the ballot.

I think Chapman has to be viewed in context of his era. A relief pitcher has not won the CY or MVP since Gagne in 2003, who was a known juicer. Compared to Wagner, the most recent inductee, Chapman compares well - more Ks and higher K%, but a higher walk rate, similar ERAs (2.31 Wagner, 2.53 Chapman), and Chapman has two WS championships (Wagner had none) and more AS appearances (8 v. 7).

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 12:11 pm

Francis Park Thug wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:57 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:46 am Not a 1st ballot for sure.

There are only nine closers in: Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Mariano Rivera, and Billy Wagner

Chapman is borderline but he's got a shot down the line to get in.

3 former Cardinals in that very short list.

Then toss in Hungo---Izzy---Worrell---Helsley and go way back to the 60's for Hoerner!

Cardinals have had some stud closers!

Helsley?

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 12:11 pm

Francis Park Thug wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:57 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:46 am Not a 1st ballot for sure.

There are only nine closers in: Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Mariano Rivera, and Billy Wagner

Chapman is borderline but he's got a shot down the line to get in.

3 former Cardinals in that very short list.

Then toss in Hungo---Izzy---Worrell---Helsley and go way back to the 60's for Hoerner!

Cardinals have had some stud closers!

Hal Woodeshick, Lindy McDaniel, and Luis Arroyo came up with the Cards.

DwaininAztec wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 15:09 pm Both Hoyt Wilhelm and Dennis Eckersley spent some time as starters.

Yes, after many changes in the way "saves" were figured, today's system as the easiest way to get a "save." There were many very good "firemen" out there in the late '50s and early '60s, such as Lindy McDaniel, Elroy Face, Ron Perranoski, and others. These guys regularly threw 2 and 3 inning to get their "save," while also playing the role of a "fireman" who came in when the opposition was challenging to take the lead no matter what inning.

Also, starters went much deeper into games back then, and actually tried their best to finish (!) what they started. Other words, there were fewer opportunities for an assigned reliever to only close out games. For instance, while with the white Sox, just look at the ratio of Hoyt Wilhelm’s “saves” to his total innings. He came into a game during key situations, regardless of whether it was the 9th or not.

Francis Park Thug wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:57 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:46 am Not a 1st ballot for sure.

There are only nine closers in: Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Mariano Rivera, and Billy Wagner

Chapman is borderline but he's got a shot down the line to get in.

3 former Cardinals in that very short list.

And Fingers makes 4: Except he never pitched for the Cards because Whitey traded him when he got Sutter. Ahhh the good old days.

Rojo Johnson wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 14:14 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 12:11 pm

Francis Park Thug wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:57 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:46 am Not a 1st ballot for sure.

There are only nine closers in: Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Mariano Rivera, and Billy Wagner

Chapman is borderline but he's got a shot down the line to get in.

3 former Cardinals in that very short list.

Then toss in Hungo---Izzy---Worrell---Helsley and go way back to the 60's for Hoerner!

Cardinals have had some stud closers!

Don’t you dare forget Barney Schultz with his knuckle-whatever ball! He’s a big reason we won the World Series in ’64!

Did Mantle's 9th inning HR in game 3 off of him ever reenter the atmosphere?

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 17:06 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 12:11 pm

Francis Park Thug wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:57 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:46 am Not a 1st ballot for sure.

There are only nine closers in: Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Mariano Rivera, and Billy Wagner

Chapman is borderline but he's got a shot down the line to get in.

3 former Cardinals in that very short list.

Then toss in Hungo---Izzy---Worrell---Helsley and go way back to the 60's for Hoerner!

Cardinals have had some stud closers!

Helsley?

Cardinals single season saves record holder

NL Reliever of the Year Winner

2 Top 12 CY Young award finishes

285 G

2.83 ERA

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:46 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 17:06 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 12:11 pm

Francis Park Thug wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:57 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:46 am Not a 1st ballot for sure.

There are only nine closers in: Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Mariano Rivera, and Billy Wagner

Chapman is borderline but he's got a shot down the line to get in.

3 former Cardinals in that very short list.

Then toss in Hungo---Izzy---Worrell---Helsley and go way back to the 60's for Hoerner!

Cardinals have had some stud closers!

Helsley?

Cardinals single season saves record holder

NL Reliever of the Year Winner

2 Top 12 CY Young award finishes

285 G

2.83 ERA

One year blunder...

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 09:20 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑26 Aug 2025 08:46 am

scoutyjones2 wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 17:06 pm

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 12:11 pm

Francis Park Thug wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:57 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:46 am Not a 1st ballot for sure.

There are only nine closers in: Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Mariano Rivera, and Billy Wagner

Chapman is borderline but he's got a shot down the line to get in.

3 former Cardinals in that very short list.

Then toss in Hungo---Izzy---Worrell---Helsley and go way back to the 60's for Hoerner!

Cardinals have had some stud closers!

Helsley?

Cardinals single season saves record holder

NL Reliever of the Year Winner

2 Top 12 CY Young award finishes

285 G

2.83 ERA

One year blunder...

Two Top 12 CY Young finishes say's otherwise.

Too many injuries but he was still a good one (until this season).

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 15:17 pm

OldRed wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:59 am

rockondlouie wrote: ↑25 Aug 2025 11:46 am Not a 1st ballot for sure.

There are only nine closers in: Hoyt Wilhelm, Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Bruce Sutter, Goose Gossage, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, Mariano Rivera, and Billy Wagner

Chapman is borderline but he's got a shot down the line to get in.

Chapman has 359 saves. More saves than HOFers Wilhelm 228, Sutter 300, Gossage 310, and Fingers 341. He only needs 21 more to catch Eckersley.

Some on that list consistently managed 3 inning saves. The save has morphed into a 1 inning thing lately. The criteria for selection into the Hall may morph as well. I do think that Chapman will earn the HOF, but, like rock, not sure how long it might take on the ballot.

None of those guys consistently managed three-inning saves, not even Wilhelm. They might have had the occasional two-inning save, but three innings was quite rare.

When Sutter became a sensational closer beginning in 1977, he proved the folly of loading up closers with innings pitched. In the first half of the season, he was unhittable. But in the second half, he had to be limited by either arm strain or he got clobbered. It took a couple of year for Herman Franks to temper his use of Sutter and only bring him in when the team was in the lead in the eighth or nineth -- usually the nineth. That use earned Sutter his Cy Young Award in 1979.

Teams pretty much copied that practice ever since and even further narrowed the use of a closer. That's why saves exploded. It was not so much the talent as it was the managers' use of the closer to optimize save totals.

In 1972, when Wilhelm retired he was the career leader in saves with 228 and by quite margin -- 94 saves ahead of Elroy Face. I suppose people might have called him the greatest reliever in the 101 years of baseball at that time. Since then, 44 players have blown past him and it wasn't because they were better relievers. They were just used in a manner that optimized the accumulation of saves.

Saves remains among the more dubious "stellar" achievements in baseball and should be treated as such when considering HOF selections.

At 37 years old:

The formidable Cuban closer, Aroldis Chapman, continues to make his mark in the MLB with the Boston Red Sox. In his latest outing, Chapman faced the Baltimore Orioles and not only secured the save, but did so spectacularly by striking out all three batters he faced.

This performance is no fluke, as Chapman has gone 41 consecutive batters without allowing a hit, a feat few can boast. Since July 23, Chapman has been a fortress on the mound. In his last 14 appearances, he hasn't allowed a single hit, elevating his status to one of the most feared relievers in the league.

"When the Red Sox put Aroldis Chapman under contract, I don’t think the club expected such good results in 2025.

We’ve written about it recently, but clearly, Chapman has found the fountain of youth somewhere in Massachusetts. His 2025 season, at age 37, is truly… unexpected, shall we say.



Aroldis Chapman signs contract extension with Boston

The Red Sox closer , with a 1.04 earned-run average in 52 innings, is in top form, which is no mean feat.

He’s already earned over $80 million in New York, and has played an important role in the Cubs’ and Rangers’ World Series conquests over the past decade. And he’s better this year?


But why are we talking about him this morning? Because the Boston Red Sox, who had signed Chapman to a one-year contract ($10.75 million) only in 2025, decided not to wait any longer before keeping him for 2026.

The Cuban has agreed to a deal for the 2026 season – with an option year that can activate in 2027 if he pitches enough innings in 2026. He’s guaranteed $13.3 million in total and can secure up to $26 million if all goes well and he stays for two years on the terms of his new contract.


Understandably, if he were younger, he would surely have waited before signing, in order to test the autonomy market. But at his age, he certainly didn’t want to leave Boston.

And it’s not as if he would have been able to get long-term offers elsewhere either.

So, like many players, he decided to buy into his bosses’ plan in Boston and chose to stay in town. He clearly believes in what the Low Reds are building.

And Craig Breslow, once again, has proved that there’s no bad time to sign a player. Even if the end of August is a more unusual time to do so.



This content was created with the help of AI.

OldRed wrote: ↑28 Aug 2025 08:44 am At 37 years old:

The formidable Cuban closer, Aroldis Chapman, continues to make his mark in the MLB with the Boston Red Sox. In his latest outing, Chapman faced the Baltimore Orioles and not only secured the save, but did so spectacularly by striking out all three batters he faced.

This performance is no fluke, as Chapman has gone 41 consecutive batters without allowing a hit, a feat few can boast. Since July 23, Chapman has been a fortress on the mound. In his last 14 appearances, he hasn't allowed a single hit, elevating his status to one of the most feared relievers in the league.

Added another inning today with one K. Folks we are watching something that may never be matched.

The name Aroldis Chapman is echoing loudly in the baseball world, and for good reason. The closer for the Boston Red Sox has achieved a feat that few can boast in MLB history: retiring 50 consecutive batters. This achievement, equivalent to nearly two perfect games, has left fans and experts in awe. The last time Chapman allowed a hit was on July 23, 2025, and since then, he has been untouchable on the mound.