Winn vs. Ozzie

[BrummerStealsHome]

No one compares to Ozzie defensively. No one.

As to arm strength, it seems that many have forgotten that Ozzie had a strong arm until he damaged his rotator cuff, sometime early in 1985. He opted not to have surgery but to alter his throwing moton so he wouldn't have to miss a year of playing. His arm strength was never the same again, but he was still accurate. It was also that time where he learned he could get the ball to 1B a bit quicker in certain situations by throwing the ball on a bounce. Ozzie was a friggin' treasure, and we'll never see the likes of him again.

None of that takes anything away from Winn; I hope he gets the Gold Glove.

[Lefley 25]

Winn has potential. He could be better than Ozzie, He could be worse. At age 23 Winn has been the better hitter with more power. Ozzie stole more bases. Ozzie had 25 errors to Masyn's 3 at age 23. Masyn clearly the better arm. Ozzie more range maybe. At this point Winn is definitely in this conversation. I will take Tempy at age 23 over both.

I thought Jump Steady was going to something super special
Hated the trade for Ozzie at the time
Whitey knew better thank goodness

[greyhawk]

Winn reminds me more of Renteria than Ozzie --- he should aspire to reach Ozzie's level, i will get back to you in about 12 yrs and let you know.

[Barrys_head]

Ozzie was much tougher, he played on the AstroTurf at Busch II. Hasn't there already been concerns about Winn's body/back holding up over a full season?

[3dender]

Ozzie was much tougher, he played on the AstroTurf at Busch II. Hasn't there already been concerns about Winn's body/back holding up over a full season?

If you're gonna compare external circumstances like that then I can just say that Ozzie would have barely a .500 OPS against modern pitchers.

[russellhammond]

Ozzie was much tougher, he played on the AstroTurf at Busch II. Hasn't there already been concerns about Winn's body/back holding up over a full season?

If you're gonna compare external circumstances like that then I can just say that Ozzie would have barely a .500 OPS against modern pitchers.

Modern pitchers? Are you freaking kidding me? Ozzie faced in the neighborhood of 15 HOF pitchers in his career, and on balance more than held his own. .341 OBP vs Sutcliffe, .324 vs Carlton, .365 vs Smoltz, .333 vs Ryan, .358 vs Glavine, .419 vs L. Smith, .462 vs P. Martinez, .476 vs Eckersley. Against probably the most dominant pitcher for the biggest rival at the time, Dwight Gooden, Ozzie had a slash line of .321/.394./369/.763. And Gooden was the pitcher Ozzie faced the third most times of any pitcher in his career. On top of this, he never struck out even as many as 50 times in a season and had almost as many career SBs (580) as Ks (589). 2460 career hits tell me he was more than just a defensive gem, albeit the greatest defensive player of all-time....yes not just the greatest defensive shortstop but the greatest at any position. Sorry for the long response....I wasn't even going to give the post any credence at all but the idea that so many people think that Winn is even in the same universe as Ozzie, or ever will be, is just patently absurd.

[craviduce]

I think it's tough to compare the two because 1) the Astroturf was prevalent in a lot of stadiums, and 2) the power allies in nearly every ballpark were endless.

Comparing pitchers is tough...the era's are different. You had more "Pitchers" in Ozzies era. Winn is facing throwers...max velocity on FB and Sliders/Change.

I miss the finesse era, for sure.

[scoutyjones2]

Winn does make some plays in the hole that Ozzie would never make because of the difference in arm strength. And the arm is accurate as well.

Winn is the overall leader in OAA. I don't know where people get that his range isn't that great. You can't have that without range.

No.

[scoutyjones2]

Ozzie was much tougher, he played on the AstroTurf at Busch II. Hasn't there already been concerns about Winn's body/back holding up over a full season?

If you're gonna compare external circumstances like that then I can just say that Ozzie would have barely a .500 OPS against modern pitchers.

No

[scoutyjones2]

There's a play you will never ever see again..


Ozzie diving for a sharply hit ground ball going towards the bag...it takes a wild bounce and, while in mid dive, he plucks it with his bare hand and makes the play.

https://www.mlb.com/video/ozzie-smith-s ... ideo-share

[scoutyjones2]

https://youtu.be/k8K2ZpjqYmw?si=sJSCXnuQC_ItFTmw

[Goldfan]

Ozzie was much tougher, he played on the AstroTurf at Busch II. Hasn't there already been concerns about Winn's body/back holding up over a full season?

If you're gonna compare external circumstances like that then I can just say that Ozzie would have barely a .500 OPS against modern pitchers.

Modern pitchers? Are you freaking kidding me? Ozzie faced in the neighborhood of 15 HOF pitchers in his career, and on balance more than held his own. .341 OBP vs Sutcliffe, .324 vs Carlton, .365 vs Smoltz, .333 vs Ryan, .358 vs Glavine, .419 vs L. Smith, .462 vs P. Martinez, .476 vs Eckersley. Against probably the most dominant pitcher for the biggest rival at the time, Dwight Gooden, Ozzie had a slash line of .321/.394./369/.763. And Gooden was the pitcher Ozzie faced the third most times of any pitcher in his career. On top of this, he never struck out even as many as 50 times in a season and had almost as many career SBs (580) as Ks (589). 2460 career hits tell me he was more than just a defensive gem, albeit the greatest defensive player of all-time....yes not just the greatest defensive shortstop but the greatest at any position. Sorry for the long response....I wasn't even going to give the post any credence at all but the idea that so many people think that Winn is even in the same universe as Ozzie, or ever will be, is just patently absurd.

THANK YOU
I have the eternal question that never is answered
Why aren’t ERA records being broken by these modern pitching freaks?
Why not Win records
Why not strikeout records
Shutout records
The bat control of Ozzie era and before hitters is so beyond today’s skill level its laughable.

[Francis Park Thug]

There's a play you will never ever see again..


Ozzie diving for a sharply hit ground ball going towards the bag...it takes a wild bounce and, while in mid dive, he plucks it with his bare hand and makes the play.

https://www.mlb.com/video/ozzie-smith-s ... ideo-share

You'll never see a better play from a shortstop.

[RamFan08NY]

Both are great defensively. Winn with the better arm by far.
Ozzie better range?
Winn the better hitter than Ozzie was at this age. Much more power for Winn.
Winn better average. Ozzie a much better base stealer.

Understating Ozzie's arm by a long shot. Ozzie got to most balls deep in the hole and with his quick release could throw runners out.

Ozzie never struck out 50 times in a season. Winn struck out over 100 last year and hes over 80 now. I wish Winn was the hitter Ozzie was.

[JohnnyMO]

Ozzie was much tougher, he played on the AstroTurf at Busch II. Hasn't there already been concerns about Winn's body/back holding up over a full season?

If you're gonna compare external circumstances like that then I can just say that Ozzie would have barely a .500 OPS against modern pitchers.

Modern pitchers? Are you freaking kidding me? Ozzie faced in the neighborhood of 15 HOF pitchers in his career, and on balance more than held his own. .341 OBP vs Sutcliffe, .324 vs Carlton, .365 vs Smoltz, .333 vs Ryan, .358 vs Glavine, .419 vs L. Smith, .462 vs P. Martinez, .476 vs Eckersley. Against probably the most dominant pitcher for the biggest rival at the time, Dwight Gooden, Ozzie had a slash line of .321/.394./369/.763. And Gooden was the pitcher Ozzie faced the third most times of any pitcher in his career. On top of this, he never struck out even as many as 50 times in a season and had almost as many career SBs (580) as Ks (589). 2460 career hits tell me he was more than just a defensive gem, albeit the greatest defensive player of all-time....yes not just the greatest defensive shortstop but the greatest at any position. Sorry for the long response....I wasn't even going to give the post any credence at all but the idea that so many people think that Winn is even in the same universe as Ozzie, or ever will be, is just patently absurd.

THANK YOU
I have the eternal question that never is answered
Why aren’t ERA records being broken by these modern pitching freaks?
Why not Win records
Why not strikeout records
Shutout records
The bat control of Ozzie era and before hitters is so beyond today’s skill level its laughable.

The stats do back it up, though. Hits per game are down, runs per game are down. You don’t see total records like wins or shutouts broken because modern pitchers are max effort for fewer innings. It makes them harder to hit but they throw less innings, so they don’t accumulate those stats. But overall pitching is tougher, it’s just spread out among more arms.

Not to say all time great out pitchers couldn’t pitch in this era or all time hitters couldn’t hit in this era. But pitching is better in total now than it was in the 70’s and 80’s.

[Red Bird Classic]

LoL. This can't be real...

The OP is right.

Winn has a much stronger arm. Is a better hitter. And has way more power. Smith had extreme range and was a top-notch baserunner.

Right now, Winn has had a better career at 23 than Smith had had at the same age.

The problem for Winn is that Smith inexplicably got better as he aged and was a better player at 36 and 37 than he was at 28. (well maybe it can be explained, but that's grist for another tread)

Because Smith's career arc was so bazar, it would be difficult for Winn to match him in total value. But at this moment Winn is ahead in almost every metric.