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They might be sellin’ but ain’t nobody buyin’.

CorneliusWolfe wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:35 pm They might be sellin’ but ain’t nobody buyin’.

They will. They will do the best if they add some cost controlled players with rentals.

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:13 pm

45s wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:06 pm

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 17:59 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 15:58 pm I think it's time.

They should have been sellers regardless. That decision should had been made before before thet went to spring training when ownership took the offseason off.

Agree

It seems there is no commitment …

They aren’t committed to tearing it all down and a complete rebuild…

They aren’t committed to significant investments in free agents…

However, they do seem to be committed to mediocrity and chasing that third wild card.

It’s likely to get worse before it gets better.

Mo has the yips. He is no longer capable of doing anything bold, innovative, or committed. If you mean worse before it gets better this year- could be. If you mean beyond that- probably not. There are smarter people in the building who are gaining voice. These past three years represent the bottom, in my opinion.

But thy have roster full of incompetent players for this level. And an owner who is not going to fix it with multiple free agents or trades, so no matter how good the next GM they will not be competitive for years under current ownership.

Braund241 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:45 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:13 pm

45s wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:06 pm

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 17:59 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 15:58 pm I think it's time.

They should have been sellers regardless. That decision should had been made before before thet went to spring training when ownership took the offseason off.

Agree

It seems there is no commitment …

They aren’t committed to tearing it all down and a complete rebuild…

They aren’t committed to significant investments in free agents…

However, they do seem to be committed to mediocrity and chasing that third wild card.

It’s likely to get worse before it gets better.

Mo has the yips. He is no longer capable of doing anything bold, innovative, or committed. If you mean worse before it gets better this year- could be. If you mean beyond that- probably not. There are smarter people in the building who are gaining voice. These past three years represent the bottom, in my opinion.

But thy have roster full of incompetent players for this level. And an owner who is not going to fix it with multiple free agents or trades, so no matter how good the next GM they will not be competitive for years under current ownership.

I guess this is what makes horse races- I think they will.

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 15:58 pm I think it's time.

It's a shame because when healthy, this team has the offense to compete. But my gawd has the pitching been next to worthless.

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 17:53 pm

dugoutrex wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 17:38 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 17:03 pm

dugoutrex wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:56 pm

rizzardo wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:44 pm It has been time.... for a long time.
This is just the last few minutes of the sinking of the Titanic. Nothing much has changed from the previous few years (even the players), and trying to muddle along with some sort of "well, we might make the playoffs this year" attitude is just fundamentally flawed. Given all the double-speak, lack of vision, and inability to maintain a consistent strategy or plan... I am not sure this organization can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully, by whatever momentum comes along, it leads to a sell-off and a new GM's wisdom next year. Funny... guys like Doug Armstrong always find a way... and idiots like MO just talk in circles and get nowhere.

weren't the Blues one and done this year ? - I guess that's finding a way ...

Would you rather have the Blues' track record over the past 5-10 years or the Cardinals'?

how 'bout over the last 50 years ?

This conversation always ends up here. You go back far enough to take in 3 Hall of Fame managers and several Hall of Fame players. We've now manufactured our own Hall of Fame so that we can feel good about inducting some players that people recognize. Someone has to wear the red jackets. The legit Hall of Famers are dying. It's been 14 years since we had a Hall of Fame manager. If a good yesterday is enough for you, I'm happy for you. Many of us would like to have a productive and compelling present and future. I don't want to be remembered as someone who used to be good at something.

Of course it does...because they can't defend what they have done to this franchise

rizzardo wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:44 pm It has been time.... for a long time.
This is just the last few minutes of the sinking of the Titanic. Nothing much has changed from the previous few years (even the players), and trying to muddle along with some sort of "well, we might make the playoffs this year" attitude is just fundamentally flawed. Given all the double-speak, lack of vision, and inability to maintain a consistent strategy or plan... I am not sure this organization can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully, by whatever momentum comes along, it leads to a sell-off and a new GM's wisdom next year. Funny... guys like Doug Armstrong always find a way... and idiots like MO just talk in circles and get nowhere.

Young players can improve. While many of the players are the same, Donovan, Liberatore, Scott, Burleson, Winn, Herrera etc. were playing at a level well enough to win. In particular, the emergence of Herrera made a significant difference in this teams dynamic. Two things have happened in the last 3 weeks that made the trajectory worse. Herrera has been hurt and both Mikolas and Fedde imploded.

While they probably should sell, at this point, there is nothing wrong with letting Herrera come back and seeing what happens for the week after the all-star break. If they can get the Yankees or the Dodgers to take Arenado, they should make that move for certain. If they can get anything for Fedde, that should happen. They should also maximize the take on Helsley. That doesn't mean they can't compete with what they have left. They can bring Granillo back up and let some combination of Granillo, 'O/Brien, Graceffo close. That only leaves Matz and Matton to trade. I don't think Mikolas or Gray will waive their NTC. Matz and Matton probably make them marginally competitive. If they get huge offers for them sure. But, they also have to have a pitching staff capable of finishing the season. So, I think holding onto a couple of guys makes sense.

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 19:10 pm

rizzardo wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:44 pm It has been time.... for a long time.
This is just the last few minutes of the sinking of the Titanic. Nothing much has changed from the previous few years (even the players), and trying to muddle along with some sort of "well, we might make the playoffs this year" attitude is just fundamentally flawed. Given all the double-speak, lack of vision, and inability to maintain a consistent strategy or plan... I am not sure this organization can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully, by whatever momentum comes along, it leads to a sell-off and a new GM's wisdom next year. Funny... guys like Doug Armstrong always find a way... and idiots like MO just talk in circles and get nowhere.

Young players can improve. While many of the players are the same, Donovan, Liberatore, Scott, Burleson, Winn, Herrera etc. were playing at a level well enough to win. In particular, the emergence of Herrera made a significant difference in this teams dynamic. Two things have happened in the last 3 weeks that made the trajectory worse. Herrera has been hurt and both Mikolas and Fedde imploded.

While they probably should sell, at this point, there is nothing wrong with letting Herrera come back and seeing what happens for the week after the all-star break. If they can get the Yankees or the Dodgers to take Arenado, they should make that move for certain. If they can get anything for Fedde, that should happen. They should also maximize the take on Helsley. That doesn't mean they can't compete with what they have left. They can bring Granillo back up and let some combination of Granillo, 'O/Brien, Graceffo close. That only leaves Matz and Matton to trade. I don't think Mikolas or Gray will waive their NTC. Matz and Matton probably make them marginally competitive. If they get huge offers for them sure. But, they also have to have a pitching staff capable of finishing the season. So, I think holding onto a couple of guys makes sense.

So yeah... what you are saying is they should sell. Moving 5, 6, 7 players is selling. Nothing wrong with keeping assets but nothing wrong with selling some of those as well, if it makes you MORE competitive in the near or even distant future.
...and the use of the word compete means so many things to different people. Come on... they have not been at "champion" caliber competing for quite some time. And there is no real vision involved with getting back to that... just lip service. Just eking your way towards the multitudes of Wild Card fodder seems like such a fall from what is expected of this franchise. At least make the glass half full versus half empty.
The biggest addition will be the MO subtraction. That should at least provide the conduit to fulfill some change. I know it has supposedly started but MO is now an obstacle in many senses of the word. IMO, they have only a few "non-available" assets. The large percentage should be made available whether it's a rental trade, salary dump, or good ol' "Baseball trade"...
...and if guys like MM block a trade and then prevent the Cards from making an ancillary trade because of occupying a 40-man roster spot, cut him!

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:48 pm

Braund241 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:45 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:13 pm

45s wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:06 pm

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 17:59 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 15:58 pm I think it's time.

They should have been sellers regardless. That decision should had been made before before thet went to spring training when ownership took the offseason off.

Agree

It seems there is no commitment …

They aren’t committed to tearing it all down and a complete rebuild…

They aren’t committed to significant investments in free agents…

However, they do seem to be committed to mediocrity and chasing that third wild card.

It’s likely to get worse before it gets better.

Mo has the yips. He is no longer capable of doing anything bold, innovative, or committed. If you mean worse before it gets better this year- could be. If you mean beyond that- probably not. There are smarter people in the building who are gaining voice. These past three years represent the bottom, in my opinion.

But thy have roster full of incompetent players for this level. And an owner who is not going to fix it with multiple free agents or trades, so no matter how good the next GM they will not be competitive for years under current ownership.

I guess this is what makes horse races- I think they will.

Of course they will. The namby pambies be dam.ned.

rizzardo wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 22:41 pm

ICCFIM2 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 19:10 pm

rizzardo wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:44 pm It has been time.... for a long time.
This is just the last few minutes of the sinking of the Titanic. Nothing much has changed from the previous few years (even the players), and trying to muddle along with some sort of "well, we might make the playoffs this year" attitude is just fundamentally flawed. Given all the double-speak, lack of vision, and inability to maintain a consistent strategy or plan... I am not sure this organization can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully, by whatever momentum comes along, it leads to a sell-off and a new GM's wisdom next year. Funny... guys like Doug Armstrong always find a way... and idiots like MO just talk in circles and get nowhere.

Young players can improve. While many of the players are the same, Donovan, Liberatore, Scott, Burleson, Winn, Herrera etc. were playing at a level well enough to win. In particular, the emergence of Herrera made a significant difference in this teams dynamic. Two things have happened in the last 3 weeks that made the trajectory worse. Herrera has been hurt and both Mikolas and Fedde imploded.

While they probably should sell, at this point, there is nothing wrong with letting Herrera come back and seeing what happens for the week after the all-star break. If they can get the Yankees or the Dodgers to take Arenado, they should make that move for certain. If they can get anything for Fedde, that should happen. They should also maximize the take on Helsley. That doesn't mean they can't compete with what they have left. They can bring Granillo back up and let some combination of Granillo, 'O/Brien, Graceffo close. That only leaves Matz and Matton to trade. I don't think Mikolas or Gray will waive their NTC. Matz and Matton probably make them marginally competitive. If they get huge offers for them sure. But, they also have to have a pitching staff capable of finishing the season. So, I think holding onto a couple of guys makes sense.

So yeah... what you are saying is they should sell. Moving 5, 6, 7 players is selling. Nothing wrong with keeping assets but nothing wrong with selling some of those as well, if it makes you MORE competitive in the near or even distant future.
...and the use of the word compete means so many things to different people. Come on... they have not been at "champion" caliber competing for quite some time. And there is no real vision involved with getting back to that... just lip service. Just eking your way towards the multitudes of Wild Card fodder seems like such a fall from what is expected of this franchise. At least make the glass half full versus half empty.
The biggest addition will be the MO subtraction. That should at least provide the conduit to fulfill some change. I know it has supposedly started but MO is now an obstacle in many senses of the word. IMO, they have only a few "non-available" assets. The large percentage should be made available whether it's a rental trade, salary dump, or good ol' "Baseball trade"...
...and if guys like MM block a trade and then prevent the Cards from making an ancillary trade because of occupying a 40-man roster spot, cut him!

They are competing this year. Getting to 9 over 500 was pretty good. Young players can progress and gel into championship teams. We are seeing this team is short right now, so yes, unless they go on a burst after the All Star game they should sell. As described on numerous other threads over the last several weeks, the Cards are not going to compete based on payroll. They are going to compete based on players emerging and a team gelling.

Given the payroll disparity, I doubt we use the word Cards and compete for anything other than a wild card spot for quite a few years. They need several players in their system to become true difference makers for that to change, Baez, Wetherholdt, Bernal and at least 1 of Mathews or Roby to become at least a #2. Absent that, it is a long long long way back. Selling at the deadline is not going to bring any real difference makers back. It might bring a Roby type back, which was likely a good get by MO. They need to find another guy like Tyler O'Neil and hope he actually makes it. If they can get two guys like that at the trade deadline, it was probably a successful haul no matter how it turns out.

MO deserves most of the criticism going his way. Yet he is leaving the team with as much young talent as it has had in 5-7 years. It also has decent position player talent in the minors. It is not a disaster other than the pitching depth. So if they do sell 5-7 guys, 1 O'Neil type, 1 Roby type and 3-4 bullpen arms would probably be a good haul. Then maybe the young guys step up and surprise everyone down the stretch...

dugoutrex wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:56 pm

rizzardo wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:44 pm It has been time.... for a long time.
This is just the last few minutes of the sinking of the Titanic. Nothing much has changed from the previous few years (even the players), and trying to muddle along with some sort of "well, we might make the playoffs this year" attitude is just fundamentally flawed. Given all the double-speak, lack of vision, and inability to maintain a consistent strategy or plan... I am not sure this organization can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully, by whatever momentum comes along, it leads to a sell-off and a new GM's wisdom next year. Funny... guys like Doug Armstrong always find a way... and idiots like MO just talk in circles and get nowhere.

weren't the Blues one and done this year ? - I guess that's finding a way ...

Yes, were within one second of beating the President's Trophy winner and absolutely obliterated them and their Vezina goalie on home ice.

esp31 wrote: ↑13 Jul 2025 06:31 am

dugoutrex wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:56 pm

rizzardo wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:44 pm It has been time.... for a long time.
This is just the last few minutes of the sinking of the Titanic. Nothing much has changed from the previous few years (even the players), and trying to muddle along with some sort of "well, we might make the playoffs this year" attitude is just fundamentally flawed. Given all the double-speak, lack of vision, and inability to maintain a consistent strategy or plan... I am not sure this organization can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully, by whatever momentum comes along, it leads to a sell-off and a new GM's wisdom next year. Funny... guys like Doug Armstrong always find a way... and idiots like MO just talk in circles and get nowhere.

weren't the Blues one and done this year ? - I guess that's finding a way ...

Yes, were within one second of beating the President's Trophy winner and absolutely obliterated them and their Vezina goalie on home ice.

I'm not sure you're example of a team choking away a 2 goal lead in the last minute is a good argument.

Braund241 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:45 pm

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:13 pm

45s wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 18:06 pm

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 17:59 pm

hugeCardfan wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 15:58 pm I think it's time.

They should have been sellers regardless. That decision should had been made before before thet went to spring training when ownership took the offseason off.

Agree

It seems there is no commitment …

They aren’t committed to tearing it all down and a complete rebuild…

They aren’t committed to significant investments in free agents…

However, they do seem to be committed to mediocrity and chasing that third wild card.

It’s likely to get worse before it gets better.

Mo has the yips. He is no longer capable of doing anything bold, innovative, or committed. If you mean worse before it gets better this year- could be. If you mean beyond that- probably not. There are smarter people in the building who are gaining voice. These past three years represent the bottom, in my opinion.

But thy have roster full of incompetent players for this level. And an owner who is not going to fix it with multiple free agents or trades, so no matter how good the next GM they will not be competitive for years under current ownership.

How depressing, Braund.

Losing three (already) to the struggling Nats/Braves at Home does seem to signal the "FOR SALE" signs are being printed up.

Just wish Mo would hand the reigns to C. Bloom and let him make the moves.

Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 17:53 pm

dugoutrex wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 17:38 pm

desertrat23 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 17:03 pm

dugoutrex wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:56 pm

rizzardo wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:44 pm It has been time.... for a long time.
This is just the last few minutes of the sinking of the Titanic. Nothing much has changed from the previous few years (even the players), and trying to muddle along with some sort of "well, we might make the playoffs this year" attitude is just fundamentally flawed. Given all the double-speak, lack of vision, and inability to maintain a consistent strategy or plan... I am not sure this organization can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully, by whatever momentum comes along, it leads to a sell-off and a new GM's wisdom next year. Funny... guys like Doug Armstrong always find a way... and idiots like MO just talk in circles and get nowhere.

weren't the Blues one and done this year ? - I guess that's finding a way ...

Would you rather have the Blues' track record over the past 5-10 years or the Cardinals'?

how 'bout over the last 50 years ?

This conversation always ends up here. You go back far enough to take in 3 Hall of Fame managers and several Hall of Fame players. We've now manufactured our own Hall of Fame so that we can feel good about inducting some players that people recognize. Someone has to wear the red jackets. The legit Hall of Famers are dying. It's been 14 years since we had a Hall of Fame manager. If a good yesterday is enough for you, I'm happy for you. Many of us would like to have a productive and compelling present and future. I don't want to be remembered as someone who used to be good at something.

It always ends up here because it’s all they have to hang their hat on. “Look at what we did 50 years ago!” Sports is a “what have you done for me lately” business, period. If the team (and the fanbase) wants to sit around and reminisce about the good old days and use them as justification for not being relevant today, it’s just going to get worse. There are fewer and fewer people at the ballpark every day, and the number who remember the 60s (and care about it) gets even smaller.

I saw this online yesterday and it’s a good example of why the Blues are surrounded by optimism and the Cardinals aren’t. The Blues “retool” by stealing emerging stars from contenders with offer sheets and dumping bad contracts. The Cardinals “retool” by gutting payroll and telling people to wait. Which is more exciting and inspiring?

dugoutrex wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:56 pm

rizzardo wrote: ↑12 Jul 2025 16:44 pm It has been time.... for a long time.
This is just the last few minutes of the sinking of the Titanic. Nothing much has changed from the previous few years (even the players), and trying to muddle along with some sort of "well, we might make the playoffs this year" attitude is just fundamentally flawed. Given all the double-speak, lack of vision, and inability to maintain a consistent strategy or plan... I am not sure this organization can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully, by whatever momentum comes along, it leads to a sell-off and a new GM's wisdom next year. Funny... guys like Doug Armstrong always find a way... and idiots like MO just talk in circles and get nowhere.

weren't the Blues one and done this year ? - I guess that's finding a way ...

1. Blues are spending to the cap
2. Blues found a way to add 2 great young players last year
3. Blues have the youngest team in the NHL with 3-4 players with superstar potential
4. Blues have on of the best rated farm systems in hockey