almost 60 years ago

[OldRed]

That was when men played this game.

The quality of play back then doesn't compare well to the quality of play today.
Bigger, faster and stronger.
Have a friend who coaches HS ball and is in his 50's. He can still throw mostly low 70's velo with low spin rate type batting practice for a couple hours. May not sound like much, but go get yourself timed and you'll find out most of you can't sniff 70.
David Cone didn't pitch that long ago and he was commenting the other day on a broadcast that in his era (1986-2003) most FB's were in the mid 80's to low 90's.

The average player of today is bigger, faster, and stronger, yes. The average player in 1965 was more fundamentally sound and smarter. The pitchers then did not throw as hard, but the smarter ones conserved their strength, knowing that they needed to pitch deep into the game, if not the complete game. The stars of 1965 would be stars in today's game also. No doubt in my mind that guys in this '65 game - Williams, Santo, Banks, Pinson, Robinson, Rose would be all stars today. Jim Maloney and Larry Jackson did not throw as hard as many guys today, but they would also thrive in today's game. Some of the lesser players back then would possibly not make it to the show, such as the relief pitchers and bench players.

My memory was Maloney was a hard thrower for his time period. Jackson was a pitcher who worked the corners, field his position and also hit for a pitcher. He was terrific when a Cardinal in the 50's.

Yes, Maloney did throw hard for his era. Struck out a lot of batters.

Maloney brought back memories, so I had to check his stats. He had 1605 career K's. Averaged 233 innings a year with an average of 194 K's. I wonder what he would be worth in today's game? Let me add he was 6'2" and a 190 lbs.

[sp25]

Things were a bit different back in 1965 in MLB.

During the long rain delay tonight, I watched a youtube video of the last 3 innings of a game at wrigley field between the cubs and Reds on 8/19/65. Jim Maloney was pitching a no hitter in thru 7 innings when the video began. Ex-Cardinal Larry Jackson pitching a shutout for the cubbies. The wind was blowing in at about 15 mph.

Some of the great players for the small bears - Banks, Santo, Billy Williams - all HOF. For the Reds - Rose, Vada Pinson, Frank Robinson! But Jim Maloney was the star of the game, He walked 10 batters in the game, and hit another, struck out 12, and allowed no hits. He pitched all 10 innings, throwing 187 pitches!!! Larry Jackson pitched a fine game himself, walking none and allowing 9 hits in 10 IP. He would give up a solo homer to SS Leo Cardenas with 1 out in the 10th inning. The cubs would get 2 runners on in the 10th, but Ernie Banks hit into a game ending DP.

It was amazing that Jackson was left in the tie game in the 9th he was left in to bat with men on 1st and 2nd with 2 out. Just as amazing was that he walked to load the bases, but the next batter made an out.

Managerial dereliction of duty, IMO, to let the pitcher bat with two on and two out in the bottom of the 9th in a tie game. Even more amazing is that the Cubs pinch hit for Don Kessinger (OPS .482) one batter before Jackson (OPS .387) came to the plate! Pinch hit for the SS but let the pitcher bat?!

I don't see it as deriliction of duty. He treated his pitcher like a man, like a competitor, like a man. Not only did Maloney appreciate that, I'm sure, but all his teammates as well. Baseball is a game played by men, and it should be conducted with that in mind.

Big words, but was Kissinger also treated like a man? I think we're trying to agrandize the wrong thing.

[JuanAgosto]

I'm not sure the players today are more athletic than guys from the past. Lou Brock, Rickey Henderson, Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, etc were all pretty (bleep) fast. The 1980s Cardinals would blow the current roster away in speed.

And even though many of today's players are built through weight training, those older players were just naturally strong. Many of the older ballparks were bigger. But guys like Aaron, Mantle, Jackson, Schmidt, and others were hitting a large number of hrs. And also hitting for average! Those guys weren't hitting 30+ bombs with a 220 ba.

Sure, "pitchers" are throwing harder now. But most are just throwing. The greats of yesteryear PITCHED. It was an art. And they had 4 man rotations. And went deeper in games. And made 30-35 starts every year.

Yeah, the game is different now. Different style, different ideas, it's evolved. Is it better? Maybe, maybe not. But please stop with the inaccurate belief that it's all bigger, stronger, faster now. Its not.

[OregonRedbird]

Has me remembering those days, marveling at them. 62 years ago, 42 yr-old Warren Spahn dueled Juan Marichal in a game that seems inconceivable today. Scoreless through 16, both went the distance. Talk about men, astronomical pitch counts. Willie Mays won it with a HR in the 17th.! In ‘68, Gibson’s game altering year, a 1.12 era, and 28 complete games.

[makesnosense]

Things were a bit different back in 1965 in MLB.

During the long rain delay tonight, I watched a youtube video of the last 3 innings of a game at wrigley field between the cubs and Reds on 8/19/65. Jim Maloney was pitching a no hitter in thru 7 innings when the video began. Ex-Cardinal Larry Jackson pitching a shutout for the cubbies. The wind was blowing in at about 15 mph.

Some of the great players for the small bears - Banks, Santo, Billy Williams - all HOF. For the Reds - Rose, Vada Pinson, Frank Robinson! But Jim Maloney was the star of the game, He walked 10 batters in the game, and hit another, struck out 12, and allowed no hits. He pitched all 10 innings, throwing 187 pitches!!! Larry Jackson pitched a fine game himself, walking none and allowing 9 hits in 10 IP. He would give up a solo homer to SS Leo Cardenas with 1 out in the 10th inning. The cubs would get 2 runners on in the 10th, but Ernie Banks hit into a game ending DP.

It was amazing that Jackson was left in the tie game in the 9th he was left in to bat with men on 1st and 2nd with 2 out. Just as amazing was that he walked to load the bases, but the next batter made an out.

Managerial dereliction of duty, IMO, to let the pitcher bat with two on and two out in the bottom of the 9th in a tie game. Even more amazing is that the Cubs pinch hit for Don Kessinger (OPS .482) one batter before Jackson (OPS .387) came to the plate! Pinch hit for the SS but let the pitcher bat?!

I don't see it as deriliction of duty. He treated his pitcher like a man, like a competitor, like a man. Not only did Maloney appreciate that, I'm sure, but all his teammates as well. Baseball is a game played by men, and it should be conducted with that in mind.

And players and fans of the 20s and 30s said the same thing about 60s and 70s players . One big difference for letting a guy pitch 190 pitches is he was discardable property . If he can’t pitch they dump him for someone that can. Now pitchers are investment and it would be a gross dereliction of duty to allow a pitcher to do that today.

[12xu]

Things were a bit different back in 1965 in MLB.

During the long rain delay tonight, I watched a youtube video of the last 3 innings of a game at wrigley field between the cubs and Reds on 8/19/65. Jim Maloney was pitching a no hitter in thru 7 innings when the video began. Ex-Cardinal Larry Jackson pitching a shutout for the cubbies. The wind was blowing in at about 15 mph.

Some of the great players for the small bears - Banks, Santo, Billy Williams - all HOF. For the Reds - Rose, Vada Pinson, Frank Robinson! But Jim Maloney was the star of the game, He walked 10 batters in the game, and hit another, struck out 12, and allowed no hits. He pitched all 10 innings, throwing 187 pitches!!! Larry Jackson pitched a fine game himself, walking none and allowing 9 hits in 10 IP. He would give up a solo homer to SS Leo Cardenas with 1 out in the 10th inning. The cubs would get 2 runners on in the 10th, but Ernie Banks hit into a game ending DP.

It was amazing that Jackson was left in the tie game in the 9th he was left in to bat with men on 1st and 2nd with 2 out. Just as amazing was that he walked to load the bases, but the next batter made an out.

Managerial dereliction of duty, IMO, to let the pitcher bat with two on and two out in the bottom of the 9th in a tie game. Even more amazing is that the Cubs pinch hit for Don Kessinger (OPS .482) one batter before Jackson (OPS .387) came to the plate! Pinch hit for the SS but let the pitcher bat?!

I don't see it as deriliction of duty. He treated his pitcher like a man, like a competitor, like a man. Not only did Maloney appreciate that, I'm sure, but all his teammates as well. Baseball is a game played by men, and it should be conducted with that in mind.

And players and fans of the 20s and 30s said the same thing about 60s and 70s players . One big difference for letting a guy pitch 190 pitches is he was discardable property . If he can’t pitch they dump him for someone that can. Now pitchers are investment and it would be a gross dereliction of duty to allow a pitcher to do that today.

In the 20's and 30's there were no black players and very few latino players in MLB. In the 60's and 70's the number of black players was steadily increasing, reaching the high of nearly 19% by 1981. Latino players have increased since the mid 50's so that they now represent about 30% of MLB players.

The MLB teams did not want to discard their best pitchers back in the 60's and 70's, but they wanted to leave them in to finish games because their relievers were so much worse. They did not want to lose a game by removing a tiring ace to bring in some AAAA pitcher with weak stuff. The best starting pitchers back then were also smart enough to conserve their strength by not wearing themselves out early in games, knowing they were expected to go the distance.

You are correct in that the investment in pitchers today is huge. Once the free agent era began, the owners eventually realized that expensive starting pitchers needed to be nurtured and protected. So now it is the relievers who are the "discardable property". Most of these guys don't make the huge money, come in throwing as hard as they can for an inning or two, and unfortunately don't last too long in the Show.

[BrummerStealsHome]

Things were a bit different back in 1965 in MLB.

During the long rain delay tonight, I watched a youtube video of the last 3 innings of a game at wrigley field between the cubs and Reds on 8/19/65. Jim Maloney was pitching a no hitter in thru 7 innings when the video began. Ex-Cardinal Larry Jackson pitching a shutout for the cubbies. The wind was blowing in at about 15 mph.

Some of the great players for the small bears - Banks, Santo, Billy Williams - all HOF. For the Reds - Rose, Vada Pinson, Frank Robinson! But Jim Maloney was the star of the game, He walked 10 batters in the game, and hit another, struck out 12, and allowed no hits. He pitched all 10 innings, throwing 187 pitches!!! Larry Jackson pitched a fine game himself, walking none and allowing 9 hits in 10 IP. He would give up a solo homer to SS Leo Cardenas with 1 out in the 10th inning. The cubs would get 2 runners on in the 10th, but Ernie Banks hit into a game ending DP.

It was amazing that Jackson was left in the tie game in the 9th he was left in to bat with men on 1st and 2nd with 2 out. Just as amazing was that he walked to load the bases, but the next batter made an out.

Managerial dereliction of duty, IMO, to let the pitcher bat with two on and two out in the bottom of the 9th in a tie game. Even more amazing is that the Cubs pinch hit for Don Kessinger (OPS .482) one batter before Jackson (OPS .387) came to the plate! Pinch hit for the SS but let the pitcher bat?!

I don't see it as deriliction of duty. He treated his pitcher like a man, like a competitor, like a man. Not only did Maloney appreciate that, I'm sure, but all his teammates as well. Baseball is a game played by men, and it should be conducted with that in mind.

Big words, but was Kissinger also treated like a man? I think we're trying to agrandize the wrong thing.

My apologies, I misread your post. I thought you were referring to leaving Maloney in. The Cubs manager? Yeah, you're right, probably deriliction of duty.

[BrummerStealsHome]

Things were a bit different back in 1965 in MLB.

During the long rain delay tonight, I watched a youtube video of the last 3 innings of a game at wrigley field between the cubs and Reds on 8/19/65. Jim Maloney was pitching a no hitter in thru 7 innings when the video began. Ex-Cardinal Larry Jackson pitching a shutout for the cubbies. The wind was blowing in at about 15 mph.

Some of the great players for the small bears - Banks, Santo, Billy Williams - all HOF. For the Reds - Rose, Vada Pinson, Frank Robinson! But Jim Maloney was the star of the game, He walked 10 batters in the game, and hit another, struck out 12, and allowed no hits. He pitched all 10 innings, throwing 187 pitches!!! Larry Jackson pitched a fine game himself, walking none and allowing 9 hits in 10 IP. He would give up a solo homer to SS Leo Cardenas with 1 out in the 10th inning. The cubs would get 2 runners on in the 10th, but Ernie Banks hit into a game ending DP.

It was amazing that Jackson was left in the tie game in the 9th he was left in to bat with men on 1st and 2nd with 2 out. Just as amazing was that he walked to load the bases, but the next batter made an out.

Managerial dereliction of duty, IMO, to let the pitcher bat with two on and two out in the bottom of the 9th in a tie game. Even more amazing is that the Cubs pinch hit for Don Kessinger (OPS .482) one batter before Jackson (OPS .387) came to the plate! Pinch hit for the SS but let the pitcher bat?!

I don't see it as deriliction of duty. He treated his pitcher like a man, like a competitor, like a man. Not only did Maloney appreciate that, I'm sure, but all his teammates as well. Baseball is a game played by men, and it should be conducted with that in mind.

And players and fans of the 20s and 30s said the same thing about 60s and 70s players . One big difference for letting a guy pitch 190 pitches is he was discardable property . If he can’t pitch they dump him for someone that can. Now pitchers are investment and it would be a gross dereliction of duty to allow a pitcher to do that today.

That's not why pitchers were dumped. They were dumped because many of the injuries pitchers face were not addressble by the medical practices of the day. Onced they were damaged goods they were let go. My dad was released from the Brooklyn Dodgers organization after developing a chronic sore elbow. Today he would have spent a few weeks in the trainers room getting treatment and been right back on the mound.

[sp25]

Things were a bit different back in 1965 in MLB.

During the long rain delay tonight, I watched a youtube video of the last 3 innings of a game at wrigley field between the cubs and Reds on 8/19/65. Jim Maloney was pitching a no hitter in thru 7 innings when the video began. Ex-Cardinal Larry Jackson pitching a shutout for the cubbies. The wind was blowing in at about 15 mph.

Some of the great players for the small bears - Banks, Santo, Billy Williams - all HOF. For the Reds - Rose, Vada Pinson, Frank Robinson! But Jim Maloney was the star of the game, He walked 10 batters in the game, and hit another, struck out 12, and allowed no hits. He pitched all 10 innings, throwing 187 pitches!!! Larry Jackson pitched a fine game himself, walking none and allowing 9 hits in 10 IP. He would give up a solo homer to SS Leo Cardenas with 1 out in the 10th inning. The cubs would get 2 runners on in the 10th, but Ernie Banks hit into a game ending DP.

It was amazing that Jackson was left in the tie game in the 9th he was left in to bat with men on 1st and 2nd with 2 out. Just as amazing was that he walked to load the bases, but the next batter made an out.

Managerial dereliction of duty, IMO, to let the pitcher bat with two on and two out in the bottom of the 9th in a tie game. Even more amazing is that the Cubs pinch hit for Don Kessinger (OPS .482) one batter before Jackson (OPS .387) came to the plate! Pinch hit for the SS but let the pitcher bat?!

I don't see it as deriliction of duty. He treated his pitcher like a man, like a competitor, like a man. Not only did Maloney appreciate that, I'm sure, but all his teammates as well. Baseball is a game played by men, and it should be conducted with that in mind.

Big words, but was Kessinger also treated like a man? I think we're trying to agrandize the wrong thing.

My apologies, I misread your post. I thought you were referring to leaving Maloney in. The Cubs manager? Yeah, you're right, probably deriliction of duty.

Thanks for the follow up, Brummer.