rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 May 2025 08:32 am
Veteran hurlers like Fedde, Gray and Mikolas can easily go 100+ pitches.
I don't see the pending FA, let's abuse him by throwing him too many pitches argument being vaild.
But he’s 6’4” and 205 pounds, he obviously can’t handle that kind of abuse!
Unreal how things have changed when 100 pitches is seen by some as too many for a starter.
Here you go:
Nolan Ryan in a 13-inning game against the Boston Red Sox on June 14, 1974 threw................235 pitches!
And you can bet 200 were in the upper 90's
KO's 19....walked 10
That's true but for every Nolan Ryan there are dozens who blew out their arms and never pitched again back then when there was no surgery due to high pitch counts. Sandy Alcantara led the league in complete games in 2022 and 2023. Arm injury.
I would say there were also dozens who pitched 250-300 inning back then too w/o blowing out their arms.
ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 May 2025 08:07 am
See Fedde and Lib's age and experience.
Zero complete games in his career until the 10-0 game. Gray has age and experience. No starts beyond 7 innings and only one 100 pitch game.
Time left under team control is the determining factor.
He's 49th in pitches thrown in 2025 and 30th in batters faced. This hardly seems egregious.
Gray was hurt and has a history of missed time. He's thrown TWO LESS PITCHES than Fedde on the season and faced 9 less batters.
Why leave him in to throw 110 pitches with a 10-0 lead?
To save the bullpen and let the guy get his shutout
To save the bullpen? They think more of long relief than a rental starter?
What specifically has you all wound up about that outing?
Fedde threw 90 or more pitches 23 times in 2024 and has done so just 5 times in 10 starts in 2025.
They were winning 10-0. Fedde makes $7.5 million a year. Which middle relief pitcher were they saving?
It was all about getting the CG.His 1st ever! That score, a run doesn't matter, and his pitch count meant that it was as
good of an opportunity as could exist.
thetank2 wrote: ↑22 May 2025 10:09 am
Fedde will get a QO which he will likely decline so he can get a 3 year $45 million contract somewhere depending upon how he ends the season.
It might depend upon where the Cards are July 31.
IMO, the Cards should be tempted IF those are his number. Might
be a touch cheaper doing that today.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 May 2025 08:32 am
Veteran hurlers like Fedde, Gray and Mikolas can easily go 100+ pitches.
I don't see the pending FA, let's abuse him by throwing him too many pitches argument being vaild.
But he’s 6’4” and 205 pounds, he obviously can’t handle that kind of abuse!
Unreal how things have changed when 100 pitches is seen by some as too many for a starter.
Here you go:
Nolan Ryan in a 13-inning game against the Boston Red Sox on June 14, 1974 threw................235 pitches!
And you can bet 200 were in the upper 90's
KO's 19....walked 10
That's true but for every Nolan Ryan there are dozens who blew out their arms and never pitched again back then when there was no surgery due to high pitch counts. Sandy Alcantara led the league in complete games in 2022 and 2023. Arm injury.
I would say there were also dozens who pitched 250-300 inning back then too w/o blowing out their arms.
That's true and there have been articles written as to why. No more sandlot baseball resulting in pitchers developing more arm strength as kids. Average MLB salary in 1974 being $40,000 - now it's $5 million. Hitters not being on roids or weight lifting back then.
Regardless of why it's clear today's pitchers are more fragile and can't handle that workload.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 May 2025 08:32 am
Veteran hurlers like Fedde, Gray and Mikolas can easily go 100+ pitches.
I don't see the pending FA, let's abuse him by throwing him too many pitches argument being vaild.
But he’s 6’4” and 205 pounds, he obviously can’t handle that kind of abuse!
Unreal how things have changed when 100 pitches is seen by some as too many for a starter.
Here you go:
Nolan Ryan in a 13-inning game against the Boston Red Sox on June 14, 1974 threw................235 pitches!
And you can bet 200 were in the upper 90's
KO's 19....walked 10
That's true but for every Nolan Ryan there are dozens who blew out their arms and never pitched again back then when there was no surgery due to high pitch counts. Sandy Alcantara led the league in complete games in 2022 and 2023. Arm injury.
I would say there were also dozens who pitched 250-300 inning back then too w/o blowing out their arms.
That's true and there have been articles written as to why. No more sandlot baseball resulting in pitchers developing more arm strength as kids. Average MLB salary in 1974 being $40,000 - now it's $5 million. Hitters not being on roids or weight lifting back then.
Regardless of why it's clear today's pitchers are more fragile and can't handle that workload.
Bingo SM!
Been saying the same for a long, long time.
Star pitcher making $100,000 (re: B. Gibson) gets hurt throwing 300 innings it's a loss but owner (A. Busch) just shrugs.
Star pitcher in 2025 making $42M (re: Z. Wheeler) gets hurt and owner cries, thus they limit him to 200 innings in an attempt to protect their investment.
Toss in they start "protecting" their future investments from the day they're drafted by limiting their innings and here we are.
Guy like N. Ryan, when he was GM, tries to change things by having his minor leaguers throw more innings to build arm strength and agents/owners go insane and put a stop to it.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 May 2025 08:32 am
Veteran hurlers like Fedde, Gray and Mikolas can easily go 100+ pitches.
I don't see the pending FA, let's abuse him by throwing him too many pitches argument being vaild.
But he’s 6’4” and 205 pounds, he obviously can’t handle that kind of abuse!
Unreal how things have changed when 100 pitches is seen by some as too many for a starter.
Here you go:
Nolan Ryan in a 13-inning game against the Boston Red Sox on June 14, 1974 threw................235 pitches!
And you can bet 200 were in the upper 90's
KO's 19....walked 10
That's true but for every Nolan Ryan there are dozens who blew out their arms and never pitched again back then when there was no surgery due to high pitch counts. Sandy Alcantara led the league in complete games in 2022 and 2023. Arm injury.
I would say there were also dozens who pitched 250-300 inning back then too w/o blowing out their arms.
That's true and there have been articles written as to why. No more sandlot baseball resulting in pitchers developing more arm strength as kids. Average MLB salary in 1974 being $40,000 - now it's $5 million. Hitters not being on roids or weight lifting back then.
Regardless of why it's clear today's pitchers are more fragile and can't handle that workload.
Bingo SM!
Been saying the same for a long, long time.
Star pitcher making $100,000 (re: B. Gibson) gets hurt throwing 300 innings it's a loss but owner (A. Busch) just shrugs.
Star pitcher in 2025 making $42M (re: Z. Wheeler) gets hurt and owner cries, thus they limit him to 200 innings in an attempt to protect their investment.
Toss in they start "protecting" their future investments from the day they're drafted by limiting their innings and here we are.
Guy like N. Ryan, when he was GM, tries to change things by having his minor leaguers throw more innings to build arm strength and agents/owners go insane and put a stop to it.
There were also 40 rounds in the MLB draft and no limit to international signings back then. Today the MLB draft is 20 rounds with a cap on the international signings. Back then there were more players entering the system and thus following the lower tier players being culled they had more arms who were MLB caliber waiting for their chance.
ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 May 2025 08:07 am
See Fedde and Lib's age and experience.
Zero complete games in his career until the 10-0 game. Gray has age and experience. No starts beyond 7 innings and only one 100 pitch game.
Time left under team control is the determining factor.
He's 49th in pitches thrown in 2025 and 30th in batters faced. This hardly seems egregious.
Gray was hurt and has a history of missed time. He's thrown TWO LESS PITCHES than Fedde on the season and faced 9 less batters.
Why leave him in to throw 110 pitches with a 10-0 lead?
To save the bullpen and let the guy get his shutout
To save the bullpen? They think more of long relief than a rental starter?
What specifically has you all wound up about that outing?
Fedde threw 90 or more pitches 23 times in 2024 and has done so just 5 times in 10 starts in 2025.
They were winning 10-0. Fedde makes $7.5 million a year. Which middle relief pitcher were they saving?
Doesn't matter which one. They got all of the bullpen guys a day off.
He averaged 12(.1) pitches per inning. Scattered 6 hits(never more than one inning), gave up 0 walks, and after giving up the leadoff double in the first inning, he didn't face a RISP situation the rest of day.
Three of his innings were 10, 9, and 7 pitches. His first pitch in the bottom of the 7th was his 68th pitch of the game. Why pull a guy who's been cruising and is under 70 pitches? He started the 9th inning with 92 pitches with three of those 8 innings pitched being quite low stress innings. He wasn't being abused with high pitch counts in any particularly inning - he was having a smooth day. And they let the guy get his first complete game and shut out.
Acting like he was abused because of his contract status is ludicrous since, quite simply, he wasn't abused.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑21 May 2025 08:32 am
Veteran hurlers like Fedde, Gray and Mikolas can easily go 100+ pitches.
I don't see the pending FA, let's abuse him by throwing him too many pitches argument being vaild.
But he’s 6’4” and 205 pounds, he obviously can’t handle that kind of abuse!
Unreal how things have changed when 100 pitches is seen by some as too many for a starter.
Here you go:
Nolan Ryan in a 13-inning game against the Boston Red Sox on June 14, 1974 threw................235 pitches!
And you can bet 200 were in the upper 90's
KO's 19....walked 10
That's true but for every Nolan Ryan there are dozens who blew out their arms and never pitched again back then when there was no surgery due to high pitch counts. Sandy Alcantara led the league in complete games in 2022 and 2023. Arm injury.
I would say there were also dozens who pitched 250-300 inning back then too w/o blowing out their arms.
That's true and there have been articles written as to why. No more sandlot baseball resulting in pitchers developing more arm strength as kids. Average MLB salary in 1974 being $40,000 - now it's $5 million. Hitters not being on roids or weight lifting back then.
Regardless of why it's clear today's pitchers are more fragile and can't handle that workload.
Bingo SM!
Been saying the same for a long, long time.
Star pitcher making $100,000 (re: B. Gibson) gets hurt throwing 300 innings it's a loss but owner (A. Busch) just shrugs.
Star pitcher in 2025 making $42M (re: Z. Wheeler) gets hurt and owner cries, thus they limit him to 200 innings in an attempt to protect their investment.
Toss in they start "protecting" their future investments from the day they're drafted by limiting their innings and here we are.
Guy like N. Ryan, when he was GM, tries to change things by having his minor leaguers throw more innings to build arm strength and agents/owners go insane and put a stop to it.
There were also 40 rounds in the MLB draft and no limit to international signings back then. Today the MLB draft is 20 rounds with a cap on the international signings. Back then there were more players entering the system and thus following the lower tier players being culled they had more arms who were MLB caliber waiting for their chance.
ecleme22 wrote: ↑21 May 2025 08:07 am
See Fedde and Lib's age and experience.
Zero complete games in his career until the 10-0 game. Gray has age and experience. No starts beyond 7 innings and only one 100 pitch game.
Time left under team control is the determining factor.
He's 49th in pitches thrown in 2025 and 30th in batters faced. This hardly seems egregious.
Gray was hurt and has a history of missed time. He's thrown TWO LESS PITCHES than Fedde on the season and faced 9 less batters.
Why leave him in to throw 110 pitches with a 10-0 lead?
To save the bullpen and let the guy get his shutout
To save the bullpen? They think more of long relief than a rental starter?
What specifically has you all wound up about that outing?
Fedde threw 90 or more pitches 23 times in 2024 and has done so just 5 times in 10 starts in 2025.
They were winning 10-0. Fedde makes $7.5 million a year. Which middle relief pitcher were they saving?
Doesn't matter which one. They got all of the bullpen guys a day off.
He averaged 12(.1) pitches per inning. Scattered 6 hits(never more than one inning), gave up 0 walks, and after giving up the leadoff double in the first inning, he didn't face a RISP situation the rest of day.
Three of his innings were 10, 9, and 7 pitches. His first pitch in the bottom of the 7th was his 68th pitch of the game. Why pull a guy who's been cruising and is under 70 pitches? He started the 9th inning with 92 pitches with three of those 8 innings pitched being quite low stress innings. He wasn't being abused with high pitch counts in any particularly inning - he was having a smooth day. And they let the guy get his first complete game and shut out.
Acting like he was abused because of his contract status is ludicrous since, quite simply, he wasn't abused.
We have a different philosophy on which is more important. Middle relief or starting pitcher.
I knew a former Cub minor league pitcher. We talked about the injury issues. His take was that most of the guys who were going to get injured, did it in the minors when there were 8 to 12 MiLB teams per MLB team. He said he threw over 250 innings per year for 4 years in the MiLB before getting a "real" job.
