STLtoday.com

ilcubuffs wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 10:30 am Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

Cranny wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 09:11 am

desertrat23 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 09:01 am

Cranny wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 08:26 am

BrockFloodMaris wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 07:13 am

desertrat23 wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:59 pm

RamFan08NY wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:13 pm The players have to want to come to your team. How many middle America teams are attracting these guys? If you're not near one of the oceans, players don't want to be there. The Cardinals are in the same non-attractive boat that about 26 other teams arer in. How do you fix it? The only way you even have a chance at them is by extreme over spending, and that might not even work.

Show them you’re serious about winning. Build the best player development system in baseball, not let it rot through cost-cutting. Make reasonable offers to free agents, not lowballs. And when they don’t sign, make public statements like “X is a great player, and we wish him the best. We look forward to continuing to try to show premier free agents why we’re the Yankees of the NL and a place people want to play.” Ever notice how when the big boys get signed, Mo always says “we were never really in it?” He’s telling the whole industry that they’re not interested!

Above all, make every move, every statement, every transaction, send the message that you want to win a championship. Not a wild card, not a division, a ring. Even if you fall short, you’re showing the fans, the other teams, the agents, and the players that you’re serious. We haven’t done that in years.

I agree with you, rat. Deliver a winning message to everyone. Strive for greatness. It hasn’t been that long ago. Some of us remember.

They strove for greatness when they traded for Goldy and Arenado.

Yes. Those were both fantastic deals. But a couple of things:
1. Striving for greatness is a constant thing, not an every-few-years thing.
2. They never finished the job! How many of us at the time of each of those deals could tell they were great adds, but weren’t enough to fill the major roster holes, be it pitching or outfield bat? It’s building a team that’s a serious contender to win a ring, not a division.

Finish the job by signing more expensive players when it’s not in the budget?

ilcubuffs wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 10:30 am Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

Bomber1 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 09:16 am

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:09 pm

Baseball Savant wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:01 pm Ownership and management somehow killed the Golden Goose

Somebody moved the cheese on BDW and he is lost.

And stubborn.

He and Mo were complicit in HackGate

They deserve their misery

I was in agreement until hackgate. Everyone forgets one big piece of it which kills the idea they were doing it as an organization.

What’s the one big piece?

thetank2 wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:13 pm

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:09 pm

Baseball Savant wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:01 pm Ownership and management somehow killed the Golden Goose

Somebody moved the cheese on BDW and he is lost.

And stubborn.

He and Mo were complicit in HackGate

They deserve their misery

I was in agreement until hackgate. Everyone forgets one big piece of it which kills the idea they were doing it as an organization.

Why are you on here?

thetank2 wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:13 pm

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:09 pm

Baseball Savant wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:01 pm Ownership and management somehow killed the Golden Goose

Somebody moved the cheese on BDW and he is lost.

And stubborn.

He and Mo were complicit in HackGate

They deserve their misery

I was in agreement until hackgate. Everyone forgets one big piece of it which kills the idea they were doing it as an organization.

Why are you on here?

nighthawk wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 12:34 pm Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

Banner29 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 12:31 pm

thetank2 wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:13 pm

Stlcardsblues wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:09 pm

Baseball Savant wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 21:01 pm Ownership and management somehow killed the Golden Goose

Somebody moved the cheese on BDW and he is lost.

And stubborn.

He and Mo were complicit in HackGate

They deserve their misery

I was in agreement until hackgate. Everyone forgets one big piece of it which kills the idea they were doing it as an organization.

Why are you on here?

Why are you? You never talk baseball. All you do is defend Mo and question peoples credibility when they say mean things about him

nighthawk wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 12:34 pm Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

imadangman wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 11:39 am

ilcubuffs wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 10:30 am Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

There was... there was a time period where the organization was getting solid contributions out of internal pieces that were not necessarily top picks but mid-round lesser hyped prospects. Carpenter, Craig, Freese, Descalso, Jay, etc. On the 2013 team I believe 18 of the 25 players on the WS roster were drafted by the Cardinals. (Luhnow)

A good contending team needs that category of player to contribute.

The first wave of the dynasty had the same effect from pieces like Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero etc.. In that time period, Jocketty knew how to either maximize the talent or maximize the value of the playerin a trade. Jocketty also managed to stockpile plenty of young talent from other organizations, i.e. Renteria and Tatis. Those types of acquisitions, would be, the exact "rebuilding" types of moves that we would like to see Mozeliak be making present day.

The organization has struggled to maximize the talent in recent years and they've failed to hit on top prospects. Yeah, Edman should have been extended.

The difference between success and failure as an organization seems to be a very, very thin line some of it being luck.

Tell me, if the Cardinals do not luck out on a 13th round pick becoming a top 5 all-time player, how does that change the course of the early 2000s Cardinals.

On the flipside, if Jordan Walker hits the ground running in 2023, let's say he hits .285 with 29 homers and 90 rbi, how does that change the course of where we are now? Maybe we would have been a winning team therefore we would have probably extended Edman and kept winning.

Very thin line.

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 14:48 pm

imadangman wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 11:39 am

ilcubuffs wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 10:30 am Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

There was... there was a time period where the organization was getting solid contributions out of internal pieces that were not necessarily top picks but mid-round lesser hyped prospects. Carpenter, Craig, Freese, Descalso, Jay, etc. On the 2013 team I believe 18 of the 25 players on the WS roster were drafted by the Cardinals. (Luhnow)

A good contending team needs that category of player to contribute.

The first wave of the dynasty had the same effect from pieces like Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero etc.. In that time period, Jocketty knew how to either maximize the talent or maximize the value of the playerin a trade. Jocketty also managed to stockpile plenty of young talent from other organizations, i.e. Renteria and Tatis. Those types of acquisitions, would be, the exact "rebuilding" types of moves that we would like to see Mozeliak be making present day.

The organization has struggled to maximize the talent in recent years and they've failed to hit on top prospects. Yeah, Edman should have been extended.

The difference between success and failure as an organization seems to be a very, very thin line some of it being luck.

Tell me, if the Cardinals do not luck out on a 13th round pick becoming a top 5 all-time player, how does that change the course of the early 2000s Cardinals.

On the flipside, if Jordan Walker hits the ground running in 2023, let's say he hits .285 with 29 homers and 90 rbi, how does that change the course of where we are now? Maybe we would have been a winning team therefore we would have probably extended Edman and kept winning.

Very thin line.

They simply haven’t gotten a star quality product in a long time. They’ve had multiple top 10 prospects in the game, even top 5 prospects in the game, and to this point none of them have panned out.

Alex Reyes
Oscar Taveras
Colby Rasmus
Dylan Carlson
Jordan Walker

To lesser extent guys like
Tyler O’Neill
Matthew Liberatore
Nolan Gorman
Jordan Hicks
Shelby Miller
Jack Flaherty
Etc. etc.

They’ve done a decent job with the “lesser” guys with Donovan, Nootbaar, Herrera, Winn, Pallante, etc. If they hit on a star player or two, they’d be in a much better spot right now. But they didn’t.

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 14:48 pm

imadangman wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 11:39 am

ilcubuffs wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 10:30 am Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

There was... there was a time period where the organization was getting solid contributions out of internal pieces that were not necessarily top picks but mid-round lesser hyped prospects. Carpenter, Craig, Freese, Descalso, Jay, etc. On the 2013 team I believe 18 of the 25 players on the WS roster were drafted by the Cardinals. (Luhnow)

A good contending team needs that category of player to contribute.

The first wave of the dynasty had the same effect from pieces like Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero etc.. In that time period, Jocketty knew how to either maximize the talent or maximize the value of the playerin a trade. Jocketty also managed to stockpile plenty of young talent from other organizations, i.e. Renteria and Tatis. Those types of acquisitions, would be, the exact "rebuilding" types of moves that we would like to see Mozeliak be making present day.

The organization has struggled to maximize the talent in recent years and they've failed to hit on top prospects. Yeah, Edman should have been extended.

The difference between success and failure as an organization seems to be a very, very thin line some of it being luck.

Tell me, if the Cardinals do not luck out on a 13th round pick becoming a top 5 all-time player, how does that change the course of the early 2000s Cardinals.

On the flipside, if Jordan Walker hits the ground running in 2023, let's say he hits .285 with 29 homers and 90 rbi, how does that change the course of where we are now? Maybe we would have been a winning team therefore we would have probably extended Edman and kept winning.

Very thin line.

They simply haven’t gotten a star quality product in a long time. They’ve had multiple top 10 prospects in the game, even top 5 prospects in the game, and to this point none of them have panned out.

Alex Reyes
Oscar Taveras
Colby Rasmus
Dylan Carlson
Jordan Walker

To lesser extent guys like
Tyler O’Neill
Matthew Liberatore
Nolan Gorman
Jordan Hicks
Shelby Miller
Jack Flaherty
Etc. etc.

They’ve done a decent job with the “lesser” guys with Donovan, Nootbaar, Herrera, Winn, Pallante, etc. If they hit on a star player or two, they’d be in a much better spot right now. But they didn’t.

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 14:48 pm

imadangman wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 11:39 am

ilcubuffs wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 10:30 am Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

There was... there was a time period where the organization was getting solid contributions out of internal pieces that were not necessarily top picks but mid-round lesser hyped prospects. Carpenter, Craig, Freese, Descalso, Jay, etc. On the 2013 team I believe 18 of the 25 players on the WS roster were drafted by the Cardinals. (Luhnow)

A good contending team needs that category of player to contribute.

The first wave of the dynasty had the same effect from pieces like Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero etc.. In that time period, Jocketty knew how to either maximize the talent or maximize the value of the playerin a trade. Jocketty also managed to stockpile plenty of young talent from other organizations, i.e. Renteria and Tatis. Those types of acquisitions, would be, the exact "rebuilding" types of moves that we would like to see Mozeliak be making present day.

The organization has struggled to maximize the talent in recent years and they've failed to hit on top prospects. Yeah, Edman should have been extended.

The difference between success and failure as an organization seems to be a very, very thin line some of it being luck.

Tell me, if the Cardinals do not luck out on a 13th round pick becoming a top 5 all-time player, how does that change the course of the early 2000s Cardinals.

On the flipside, if Jordan Walker hits the ground running in 2023, let's say he hits .285 with 29 homers and 90 rbi, how does that change the course of where we are now? Maybe we would have been a winning team therefore we would have probably extended Edman and kept winning.

Very thin line.

They simply haven’t gotten a star quality product in a long time. They’ve had multiple top 10 prospects in the game, even top 5 prospects in the game, and to this point none of them have panned out.

Alex Reyes
Oscar Taveras
Colby Rasmus
Dylan Carlson
Jordan Walker

To lesser extent guys like
Tyler O’Neill
Matthew Liberatore
Nolan Gorman
Jordan Hicks
Shelby Miller
Jack Flaherty
Etc. etc.

They’ve done a decent job with the “lesser” guys with Donovan, Nootbaar, Herrera, Winn, Pallante, etc. If they hit on a star player or two, they’d be in a much better spot right now. But they didn’t.

Cranny wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 14:57 pm

Futuregm2 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 14:48 pm

imadangman wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 11:39 am

ilcubuffs wrote: ↑18 Mar 2025 10:30 am Molina -Star player

Wong - Could be avg on any given day

DeJong - no more needs to be said

Carpenter - exit velocity does not mean success

Bader - never was nor will be an avg MLB player

Edman - should have never traded to Dudgers

Flaherty - head case who no one misses

Hudson - never learned to pitch

Wacha - late late bloomer.

Quantity does not mean quality. The farm system may have produced players for STL but most did not make a lasting impression on MLB.

There was... there was a time period where the organization was getting solid contributions out of internal pieces that were not necessarily top picks but mid-round lesser hyped prospects. Carpenter, Craig, Freese, Descalso, Jay, etc. On the 2013 team I believe 18 of the 25 players on the WS roster were drafted by the Cardinals. (Luhnow)

A good contending team needs that category of player to contribute.

The first wave of the dynasty had the same effect from pieces like Placido Polanco, Eli Marrero etc.. In that time period, Jocketty knew how to either maximize the talent or maximize the value of the playerin a trade. Jocketty also managed to stockpile plenty of young talent from other organizations, i.e. Renteria and Tatis. Those types of acquisitions, would be, the exact "rebuilding" types of moves that we would like to see Mozeliak be making present day.

The organization has struggled to maximize the talent in recent years and they've failed to hit on top prospects. Yeah, Edman should have been extended.

The difference between success and failure as an organization seems to be a very, very thin line some of it being luck.

Tell me, if the Cardinals do not luck out on a 13th round pick becoming a top 5 all-time player, how does that change the course of the early 2000s Cardinals.

On the flipside, if Jordan Walker hits the ground running in 2023, let's say he hits .285 with 29 homers and 90 rbi, how does that change the course of where we are now? Maybe we would have been a winning team therefore we would have probably extended Edman and kept winning.

Very thin line.

They simply haven’t gotten a star quality product in a long time. They’ve had multiple top 10 prospects in the game, even top 5 prospects in the game, and to this point none of them have panned out.

Alex Reyes
Oscar Taveras
Colby Rasmus
Dylan Carlson
Jordan Walker

To lesser extent guys like
Tyler O’Neill
Matthew Liberatore
Nolan Gorman
Jordan Hicks
Shelby Miller
Jack Flaherty
Etc. etc.

They’ve done a decent job with the “lesser” guys with Donovan, Nootbaar, Herrera, Winn, Pallante, etc. If they hit on a star player or two, they’d be in a much better spot right now. But they didn’t.

Depends on how you define a "star" player. And don't most of them come from the top 2/3 of the 1st round of the draft, which we simply haven't seen until recently.