rockondlouie wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 13:12 pm
When starters actually went 6-7+ innings I was completely against the 6 -man.
But starting the last few years, with starters barely getting past the 5th inning, I've warned up to it.
Gray
Fedde
Pallante
Mikolas
Matz
McGreevey
Push them deeper into games since they have an extra days rest.
There is zero chance The Marrmot would do that.
Not smart enough? I agree.
The Marmot believes covering 5 innings is a complete game for a starter.
He may extend someone for a few more outs from time to time, but his guiding mindset is "5 and done".
rockondlouie wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 13:12 pm
When starters actually went 6-7+ innings I was completely against the 6 -man.
But starting the last few years, with starters barely getting past the 5th inning, I've warned up to it.
Gray
Fedde
Pallante
Mikolas
Matz
McGreevey
Push them deeper into games since they have an extra days rest.
There is zero chance The Marrmot would do that.
Not smart enough? I agree.
The Marmot believes covering 5 innings is a complete game for a starter.
He may extend someone for a few more outs from time to time, but his guiding mindset is "5 and done".
"5 and dive" seems to be the mind set of too many starters the last decade, thinking they've done their job if they go five.
BrummerStealsHome wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 11:15 am
With a day off per week to start the season, this means one start per week each, or once every 7 days. That's too long to get a starting pitcher into a rhythm for the year. Stop screwing around and just pick the 5 starters to go with. He risks screwing up everybody because he can't make a damned decision.
I think this problem starts more with Mo than Oli. If he could've picked a lane vis-a-vis "go all in on competing this year" or "let's step back and rebuild" as opposed to "let's go all in on maybe possibly making a run for the third wild card if we think we can maybe I dunno".
Or just swallowed taking a loss on either Matz or Mikolas. Heaven forbid.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 13:12 pm
When starters actually went 6-7+ innings I was completely against the 6 -man.
But starting the last few years, with starters barely getting past the 5th inning, I've warned up to it.
Gray
Fedde
Pallante
Mikolas
Matz
McGreevey
Push them deeper into games since they have an extra days rest.
There is zero chance The Marrmot would do that.
Not smart enough? I agree.
The Marmot believes covering 5 innings is a complete game for a starter.
He may extend someone for a few more outs from time to time, but his guiding mindset is "5 and done".
6 man isnt happening. Spot starts for Mcgreevey until someone gets hurt. Then hes in the rotation. Or, Pallante, whos velo is down gets sent down to build up.
Here's the thing, I don't mind a six man rotation...IF you're loading up on younger guys. The game's changed. I don't like what that means, but adapt or die.
150 innings pitched is probably the new 180IP mark. And 180 is the new 200IP. Especially how these young guys are going and spinning everything as much as possible and putting every ounce of everything into every pitch, you can't count on them to give you that 150-180 in that first year, maybe even the first two years. So a six man makes some sense there. Just from a logistics standpoint, I don't want to throw that kind of burden on Pallante, since this is probably the first time he's really conditioned as a starter in any real way for a few years.
McGreevy almost touched 180 innings total last year. But the vast majority of those were AAA. I love how he looked up here, and I think alongside Pallante, he's done the most to raise his stock amongst the big league/Memphis shuttle players last year. But again, AAA and MLB are two different things.
So I don't hate the six man given the realities of today's game. But I think some of this could've been helped if Mozeliak wasn't scared of his own shadow.
McGreevy should be in the rotation until or unless he proves he's in over his head. The only justifiable reason I can think of for this song and dance with Matz to be happening is to help/establish his trade value. I'm again left wondering what the team is actually trying to do.
Famous Mo quote
“I offered a turd vet long term contract and I will ride that contract down the toilet with my turd vet”
Another favorite….in Pro Sports mind you
“Winning Isn’t Everything”!!!
A man ahead of his time……a thinker unlike MLB has ever seen
The modern game is less reliant on starting pitching. The top starters are expected to "go deep." The rest of the "pitchers" job description is more simple. It's just cover the innings that are asked, rather insignificant whether those innings are covered as a starter or out of the pen. You need the pen to be more nimble with pitchers able to cover multiple innings on the back of some of your lower end starters. Go to a six-man rotation and that means you are taking one arm out of that pen, with no guarantee that it causes any benefit to the starters. Your starter still very well might soil the bowl and have to come out after 3 or 4 innings, even if on a 6-man schedule. So you're gonna need those arms in the pen to cover the innings.
I'll come right out and say it. Pallante might have impressed us with a few solid starts down the stretch. But if you think that guarantees that he's gonna go out this year and pitch a quality start every time out I'm not buying it. Now I called out Pallante (who very well might be good anyway) as an example, but we have more than one starter that I don't think you can count on to go 5 innings on any given start.
It'll be best for all parties when Steven Matz goes back to the pen and he can be one of those multi-inning fellas. Might even increase his trade value that way. Seems like he's had a few decent stints out of the pen whereas every time he's a starter he's been a piece of [shirt].
The only thing a six man rotation would be good for is if you want to "get a look" at as many of these youngsters as possible, in starting roles, to see what you have for 2026. It still just doesn't seem necessary when you realize that Matz and Mikolas are the problem.
Instead of a six man rotation, I’d rather see them have two or three guys in the pen that can/will pitch 2-4 innings per outing and let them finish games, similar to a piggy back start. Save the high leverage guys for high leverage.
RunSup wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 11:02 am
When they finally push Matz to the bullpen, the 6-man also opens a spot for Libby to start ... and answer the question.
They also should've traded Fedde and opened a spot. What they should do and what they do are 2 different things.
Do we know if there was a market worthy of trading him?
Ronnie Dobbs wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 15:45 pm
I wouldn't mind them trying something new. I guess they could keep Gray on a regular 5 day rotation if he doesn't like the idea.
Gray typically throws on 5 days rest.
Maybe this problem resolves itself cause I think he’s going to miss time… but they’re badly mishandling this “youth” movement if both Liberatore and McGreevy are not in the rotation.
It seems inevitable that Gray’s elbow gets worse and they wait long enough that it impacts this season and he misses 2026. They’re not invested long term in anyone else.
Fedde is probably their most important starter in the first half. Everyone but Matz and Mikolas are more important going forward.
"Cardinals manager Oliver Marmol said Monday that the club is discussing using a six-man rotation to begin the season"....
This is what should be concern to Cardinal fans. Name one strategy the Marmot has come close to getting correct. WHO is he discussing the issue - which MLB competent person is he discussing the issue? Otherwise the conversation immediately is reduced to MO Ran, Blake, and voices in this head. Good Lord.
BrummerStealsHome wrote: ↑17 Mar 2025 11:15 am
With a day off per week to start the season, this means one start per week each, or once every 7 days. That's too long to get a starting pitcher into a rhythm for the year. Stop screwing around and just pick the 5 starters to go with. He risks screwing up everybody because he can't make a damned decision.
I think this problem starts more with Mo than Oli. If he could've picked a lane vis-a-vis "go all in on competing this year" or "let's step back and rebuild" as opposed to "let's go all in on maybe possibly making a run for the third wild card if we think we can maybe I dunno".
Or just swallowed taking a loss on either Matz or Mikolas. Heaven forbid.
Starting April 11, 2 weeks into the season, the Cardinals are scheduled to play 13 games in 13 days.
Still, I don't like a 6-man rotation. Make up your minds, OliMo.
