Have we heard anything from McTavish?

[son_of_foolsgold]

He sent out a thank you to the Ducks the other day and at the end he said he was excited to be coming to the Blues organization. I would imagine we will be hearing some interviews from him soon.

What will be interesting to see is if the Blues make the same demands for defensive play of McTavish that they condemned Kyrou for a lack of.

Your argument here being that the Blues should make NO demands of their forwards playing defense?

Just because you have the word fool in your handle doesn’t mean you have to be one.

Total misread of what I said...on the contrary I believe that such demands SHOULD be made, to a certain extent...but they should be consistent for every player. And yes, I 'll be calling out posters who excuse McTavish for mistakes they condemned Kyrou for.

Kyrou’s issue last year wasn’t defensively related it was his absolute refusal to take a hit to make a play. Many have pointed to the Stanley hit in the Jets’ series and that correlates with what was on display last season. Over and over he refused to get pucks into the offensive end at the blue line. He would literally just give up pucks to avoid hits, or would make blind panicked cross ice passes to no one. So in that regard I believe they will hold McTavish to a higher standard and I also assume it won’t be an issue.

Agreed. To his credit, I think Kyrou largely "fixed" the defensive holes in his game - Corsi% and xGF suggest he crushed his minutes. My problem was the visible lack of effort at retaining possession when a hit was coming - something not directly measured in the stats. I think if he meshes with his linemates in WSH, he's a prime rebound candidate - I'm glad he should get a fresh start there. But with our influx of youth, I didn't want his "turnovers to avoid a hit" getting contagious.

Now, on topic, I expect McTavish to take hits. He has that reputation for being good in the paint, and that's what I want to see - it's a MUCH higher standard than I had for Kyrou - yes, I don't want to see McTavish give up the puck to avoid a hit (same as Kyrou), but I also want to see McTavish going to the front of the net expecting to get hit. That's part of his game, so it's only fair to hold him to a higher standard there.

I think it's interesting that we haven't heard from McTavish yet. The Blues may be waiting for a chance to publicly unveil him, and have asked him to hold off making a statement until then? I still remember the Blues, when they signed Scott Stevens from NJD (tampering), unveiling him over the VP fair July 4th weekend.

I actually think it's a good sign that McTavish isn't rushing to make a statement or greet his new fans - I take it as a sign that he's more interested in putting in the work and hope it means he'll show us just how quick on his feet he can be (the knock on him last year). If he's busy getting lean and quick, I don't mind some delayed gratification in the form of few public quotes.

The stats show that McTavish is a far worse defensive player than Kyrou ever was....so it seems like we gave up 2 1st rounds picks for a player that doesn't have a flaw that Kyrou currently has, but DOES have one that we demanded Kyrou fix and he did.

By any measure, that is NOT improvement folks....

[son_of_foolsgold]

I think it's interesting that we haven't heard from McTavish yet. The Blues may be waiting for a chance to publicly unveil him, and have asked him to hold off making a statement until then? I still remember the Blues, when they signed Scott Stevens from NJD (tampering), unveiling him over the VP fair July 4th weekend.

I'll put a different theory out there...could it be the Blues know they screwed up this trade and way overpaid for McTavish? By having him out there talking to the media it just draws more attention to that fact.

[Army's Mom]

He sent out a thank you to the Ducks the other day and at the end he said he was excited to be coming to the Blues organization. I would imagine we will be hearing some interviews from him soon.

What will be interesting to see is if the Blues make the same demands for defensive play of McTavish that they condemned Kyrou for a lack of.

Your argument here being that the Blues should make NO demands of their forwards playing defense?

Just because you have the word fool in your handle doesn’t mean you have to be one.

Total misread of what I said...on the contrary I believe that such demands SHOULD be made, to a certain extent...but they should be consistent for every player. And yes, I 'll be calling out posters who excuse McTavish for mistakes they condemned Kyrou for.

Kyrou’s issue last year wasn’t defensively related it was his absolute refusal to take a hit to make a play. Many have pointed to the Stanley hit in the Jets’ series and that correlates with what was on display last season. Over and over he refused to get pucks into the offensive end at the blue line. He would literally just give up pucks to avoid hits, or would make blind panicked cross ice passes to no one. So in that regard I believe they will hold McTavish to a higher standard and I also assume it won’t be an issue.

Agreed. To his credit, I think Kyrou largely "fixed" the defensive holes in his game - Corsi% and xGF suggest he crushed his minutes. My problem was the visible lack of effort at retaining possession when a hit was coming - something not directly measured in the stats. I think if he meshes with his linemates in WSH, he's a prime rebound candidate - I'm glad he should get a fresh start there. But with our influx of youth, I didn't want his "turnovers to avoid a hit" getting contagious.

Now, on topic, I expect McTavish to take hits. He has that reputation for being good in the paint, and that's what I want to see - it's a MUCH higher standard than I had for Kyrou - yes, I don't want to see McTavish give up the puck to avoid a hit (same as Kyrou), but I also want to see McTavish going to the front of the net expecting to get hit. That's part of his game, so it's only fair to hold him to a higher standard there.

I think it's interesting that we haven't heard from McTavish yet. The Blues may be waiting for a chance to publicly unveil him, and have asked him to hold off making a statement until then? I still remember the Blues, when they signed Scott Stevens from NJD (tampering), unveiling him over the VP fair July 4th weekend.

I actually think it's a good sign that McTavish isn't rushing to make a statement or greet his new fans - I take it as a sign that he's more interested in putting in the work and hope it means he'll show us just how quick on his feet he can be (the knock on him last year). If he's busy getting lean and quick, I don't mind some delayed gratification in the form of few public quotes.

The stats show that McTavish is a far worse defensive player than Kyrou ever was....so it seems like we gave up 2 1st rounds picks for a player that doesn't have a flaw that Kyrou currently has, but DOES have one that we demanded Kyrou fix and he did.

By any measure, that is NOT improvement folks....

That's not even true.

https://livinghockey.com/player/8482745/mason-mctavish

McTavish had a similarly high Corsi% and xGF% last year, albeit in sheltered minutes. His Corsi has always been north of 50%, and his Fenwick and GF hovered around 50 while playing on some awful teams prior to this year.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, McTavish fills a glaring hole at 2C. Kyrou doesn't. Neither would the players we would have drafted, and certainly not next year.

[son_of_foolsgold]

He sent out a thank you to the Ducks the other day and at the end he said he was excited to be coming to the Blues organization. I would imagine we will be hearing some interviews from him soon.

What will be interesting to see is if the Blues make the same demands for defensive play of McTavish that they condemned Kyrou for a lack of.

Your argument here being that the Blues should make NO demands of their forwards playing defense?

Just because you have the word fool in your handle doesn’t mean you have to be one.

Total misread of what I said...on the contrary I believe that such demands SHOULD be made, to a certain extent...but they should be consistent for every player. And yes, I 'll be calling out posters who excuse McTavish for mistakes they condemned Kyrou for.

Kyrou’s issue last year wasn’t defensively related it was his absolute refusal to take a hit to make a play. Many have pointed to the Stanley hit in the Jets’ series and that correlates with what was on display last season. Over and over he refused to get pucks into the offensive end at the blue line. He would literally just give up pucks to avoid hits, or would make blind panicked cross ice passes to no one. So in that regard I believe they will hold McTavish to a higher standard and I also assume it won’t be an issue.

Agreed. To his credit, I think Kyrou largely "fixed" the defensive holes in his game - Corsi% and xGF suggest he crushed his minutes. My problem was the visible lack of effort at retaining possession when a hit was coming - something not directly measured in the stats. I think if he meshes with his linemates in WSH, he's a prime rebound candidate - I'm glad he should get a fresh start there. But with our influx of youth, I didn't want his "turnovers to avoid a hit" getting contagious.

Now, on topic, I expect McTavish to take hits. He has that reputation for being good in the paint, and that's what I want to see - it's a MUCH higher standard than I had for Kyrou - yes, I don't want to see McTavish give up the puck to avoid a hit (same as Kyrou), but I also want to see McTavish going to the front of the net expecting to get hit. That's part of his game, so it's only fair to hold him to a higher standard there.

I think it's interesting that we haven't heard from McTavish yet. The Blues may be waiting for a chance to publicly unveil him, and have asked him to hold off making a statement until then? I still remember the Blues, when they signed Scott Stevens from NJD (tampering), unveiling him over the VP fair July 4th weekend.

I actually think it's a good sign that McTavish isn't rushing to make a statement or greet his new fans - I take it as a sign that he's more interested in putting in the work and hope it means he'll show us just how quick on his feet he can be (the knock on him last year). If he's busy getting lean and quick, I don't mind some delayed gratification in the form of few public quotes.

The stats show that McTavish is a far worse defensive player than Kyrou ever was....so it seems like we gave up 2 1st rounds picks for a player that doesn't have a flaw that Kyrou currently has, but DOES have one that we demanded Kyrou fix and he did.

By any measure, that is NOT improvement folks....

That's not even true.

https://livinghockey.com/player/8482745/mason-mctavish

McTavish had a similarly high Corsi% and xGF% last year, albeit in sheltered minutes. His Corsi has always been north of 50%, and his Fenwick and GF hovered around 50 while playing on some awful teams prior to this year.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, McTavish fills a glaring hole at 2C. Kyrou doesn't. Neither would the players we would have drafted, and certainly not next year.

You're wrong in that that Corsi and Fenwick don't measure defensive prowess...they are puck possession stats. But at least you made an attempt and didn't just call names. They tell you nothing about play when not in possession of the puck. Over his career, McTavish is a -54 (Ugh) while scoring 104 pts. I don't care how bad the goaltending was that is atrocious.

The one good thing I will say about McTavish is his faceoff % which is 56%. The Blues are bad at that and this is would be an improvement.

[Harry York 37]

He sent out a thank you to the Ducks the other day and at the end he said he was excited to be coming to the Blues organization. I would imagine we will be hearing some interviews from him soon.

What will be interesting to see is if the Blues make the same demands for defensive play of McTavish that they condemned Kyrou for a lack of.

Your argument here being that the Blues should make NO demands of their forwards playing defense?

Just because you have the word fool in your handle doesn’t mean you have to be one.

Total misread of what I said...on the contrary I believe that such demands SHOULD be made, to a certain extent...but they should be consistent for every player. And yes, I 'll be calling out posters who excuse McTavish for mistakes they condemned Kyrou for.

Kyrou’s issue last year wasn’t defensively related it was his absolute refusal to take a hit to make a play. Many have pointed to the Stanley hit in the Jets’ series and that correlates with what was on display last season. Over and over he refused to get pucks into the offensive end at the blue line. He would literally just give up pucks to avoid hits, or would make blind panicked cross ice passes to no one. So in that regard I believe they will hold McTavish to a higher standard and I also assume it won’t be an issue.

Agreed. To his credit, I think Kyrou largely "fixed" the defensive holes in his game - Corsi% and xGF suggest he crushed his minutes. My problem was the visible lack of effort at retaining possession when a hit was coming - something not directly measured in the stats. I think if he meshes with his linemates in WSH, he's a prime rebound candidate - I'm glad he should get a fresh start there. But with our influx of youth, I didn't want his "turnovers to avoid a hit" getting contagious.

Now, on topic, I expect McTavish to take hits. He has that reputation for being good in the paint, and that's what I want to see - it's a MUCH higher standard than I had for Kyrou - yes, I don't want to see McTavish give up the puck to avoid a hit (same as Kyrou), but I also want to see McTavish going to the front of the net expecting to get hit. That's part of his game, so it's only fair to hold him to a higher standard there.

I think it's interesting that we haven't heard from McTavish yet. The Blues may be waiting for a chance to publicly unveil him, and have asked him to hold off making a statement until then? I still remember the Blues, when they signed Scott Stevens from NJD (tampering), unveiling him over the VP fair July 4th weekend.

I actually think it's a good sign that McTavish isn't rushing to make a statement or greet his new fans - I take it as a sign that he's more interested in putting in the work and hope it means he'll show us just how quick on his feet he can be (the knock on him last year). If he's busy getting lean and quick, I don't mind some delayed gratification in the form of few public quotes.

The stats show that McTavish is a far worse defensive player than Kyrou ever was....so it seems like we gave up 2 1st rounds picks for a player that doesn't have a flaw that Kyrou currently has, but DOES have one that we demanded Kyrou fix and he did.

By any measure, that is NOT improvement folks....

That's not even true.

https://livinghockey.com/player/8482745/mason-mctavish

McTavish had a similarly high Corsi% and xGF% last year, albeit in sheltered minutes. His Corsi has always been north of 50%, and his Fenwick and GF hovered around 50 while playing on some awful teams prior to this year.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, McTavish fills a glaring hole at 2C. Kyrou doesn't. Neither would the players we would have drafted, and certainly not next year.

You're wrong in that that Corsi and Fenwick don't measure defensive prowess...they are puck possession stats. But at least you made an attempt and didn't just call names. They tell you nothing about play when not in possession of the puck. Over his career, McTavish is a -54 (Ugh) while scoring 104 pts. I don't care how bad the goaltending was that is atrocious.

The one good thing I will say about McTavish is his faceoff % which is 56%. The Blues are bad at that and this is would be an improvement.

Thanks to 2fordiving and to Army's Mom - you actually watch games and understand the way the game is played by winners.

Watching a hotshot eunuch of a player throw a puck away, after you and the other four skaters have spent a goodly amount of blood and sweat keeping it moving North... takes the wind out of your sails for a good long while. I didn't say tears... because that is for the crybabies who can't handle being busted for their bull[shirt].

[Army's Mom]

He sent out a thank you to the Ducks the other day and at the end he said he was excited to be coming to the Blues organization. I would imagine we will be hearing some interviews from him soon.

What will be interesting to see is if the Blues make the same demands for defensive play of McTavish that they condemned Kyrou for a lack of.

Your argument here being that the Blues should make NO demands of their forwards playing defense?

Just because you have the word fool in your handle doesn’t mean you have to be one.

Total misread of what I said...on the contrary I believe that such demands SHOULD be made, to a certain extent...but they should be consistent for every player. And yes, I 'll be calling out posters who excuse McTavish for mistakes they condemned Kyrou for.

Kyrou’s issue last year wasn’t defensively related it was his absolute refusal to take a hit to make a play. Many have pointed to the Stanley hit in the Jets’ series and that correlates with what was on display last season. Over and over he refused to get pucks into the offensive end at the blue line. He would literally just give up pucks to avoid hits, or would make blind panicked cross ice passes to no one. So in that regard I believe they will hold McTavish to a higher standard and I also assume it won’t be an issue.

Agreed. To his credit, I think Kyrou largely "fixed" the defensive holes in his game - Corsi% and xGF suggest he crushed his minutes. My problem was the visible lack of effort at retaining possession when a hit was coming - something not directly measured in the stats. I think if he meshes with his linemates in WSH, he's a prime rebound candidate - I'm glad he should get a fresh start there. But with our influx of youth, I didn't want his "turnovers to avoid a hit" getting contagious.

Now, on topic, I expect McTavish to take hits. He has that reputation for being good in the paint, and that's what I want to see - it's a MUCH higher standard than I had for Kyrou - yes, I don't want to see McTavish give up the puck to avoid a hit (same as Kyrou), but I also want to see McTavish going to the front of the net expecting to get hit. That's part of his game, so it's only fair to hold him to a higher standard there.

I think it's interesting that we haven't heard from McTavish yet. The Blues may be waiting for a chance to publicly unveil him, and have asked him to hold off making a statement until then? I still remember the Blues, when they signed Scott Stevens from NJD (tampering), unveiling him over the VP fair July 4th weekend.

I actually think it's a good sign that McTavish isn't rushing to make a statement or greet his new fans - I take it as a sign that he's more interested in putting in the work and hope it means he'll show us just how quick on his feet he can be (the knock on him last year). If he's busy getting lean and quick, I don't mind some delayed gratification in the form of few public quotes.

The stats show that McTavish is a far worse defensive player than Kyrou ever was....so it seems like we gave up 2 1st rounds picks for a player that doesn't have a flaw that Kyrou currently has, but DOES have one that we demanded Kyrou fix and he did.

By any measure, that is NOT improvement folks....

That's not even true.

https://livinghockey.com/player/8482745/mason-mctavish

McTavish had a similarly high Corsi% and xGF% last year, albeit in sheltered minutes. His Corsi has always been north of 50%, and his Fenwick and GF hovered around 50 while playing on some awful teams prior to this year.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, McTavish fills a glaring hole at 2C. Kyrou doesn't. Neither would the players we would have drafted, and certainly not next year.

You're wrong in that that Corsi and Fenwick don't measure defensive prowess...they are puck possession stats. But at least you made an attempt and didn't just call names. They tell you nothing about play when not in possession of the puck. Over his career, McTavish is a -54 (Ugh) while scoring 104 pts. I don't care how bad the goaltending was that is atrocious.

The one good thing I will say about McTavish is his faceoff % which is 56%. The Blues are bad at that and this is would be an improvement.

Since you care so much about "argument", let's talk the fallacy of the strawman. It's when an opponent (you) can't answer an argument that is made (I rejected your claim that the stats show McTavish is a worse defender than Kyrou, and pointed out that the Corsi and GF for McTavish are very close to Kyrou's). Instead of answering that argument, you claim I wrongly stated that "Corsi and Fenwick don't measure defensive prowess" (I never claimed that, I am well aware of how they measure puck possession). Then you claim they tell you nothing about what happens when a team isn't in possession of the puck.

While that's true, here's where you're wrong. The fact that those ANA teams spent so little time in possession tells you they were systematically bad at recovering possession. The real question is whether McTavish was bad because he played for a bad team, or whether his badness made the team bad. To answer that, we need to see how his puck possession stats compare to his teammates (relative CF%). McTavish typically ranks above the team average, indicating his teams tend to control the puck more when he's on the ice than when he isn't. This shows that McTavish made ANA better, and their overall poor play in his first years impacted his numbers more than vice versa.

Then you quote is plus/minus, which again just means his teams stank. What is more important is relative plus/minus, where he is roughly team-average. As expected, when ANA got better, his plus/minus improved as well.

This isn't about bad goaltending. It's about playing for a team that wasn't good at possessing the puck until Q got their and enough of their youth matured.

[hullie]

On the trade? I have yet to see anything…no interviews that I’m aware of.

3pm today on 101

[son_of_foolsgold]

He sent out a thank you to the Ducks the other day and at the end he said he was excited to be coming to the Blues organization. I would imagine we will be hearing some interviews from him soon.

What will be interesting to see is if the Blues make the same demands for defensive play of McTavish that they condemned Kyrou for a lack of.

Your argument here being that the Blues should make NO demands of their forwards playing defense?

Just because you have the word fool in your handle doesn’t mean you have to be one.

Total misread of what I said...on the contrary I believe that such demands SHOULD be made, to a certain extent...but they should be consistent for every player. And yes, I 'll be calling out posters who excuse McTavish for mistakes they condemned Kyrou for.

Kyrou’s issue last year wasn’t defensively related it was his absolute refusal to take a hit to make a play. Many have pointed to the Stanley hit in the Jets’ series and that correlates with what was on display last season. Over and over he refused to get pucks into the offensive end at the blue line. He would literally just give up pucks to avoid hits, or would make blind panicked cross ice passes to no one. So in that regard I believe they will hold McTavish to a higher standard and I also assume it won’t be an issue.

Agreed. To his credit, I think Kyrou largely "fixed" the defensive holes in his game - Corsi% and xGF suggest he crushed his minutes. My problem was the visible lack of effort at retaining possession when a hit was coming - something not directly measured in the stats. I think if he meshes with his linemates in WSH, he's a prime rebound candidate - I'm glad he should get a fresh start there. But with our influx of youth, I didn't want his "turnovers to avoid a hit" getting contagious.

Now, on topic, I expect McTavish to take hits. He has that reputation for being good in the paint, and that's what I want to see - it's a MUCH higher standard than I had for Kyrou - yes, I don't want to see McTavish give up the puck to avoid a hit (same as Kyrou), but I also want to see McTavish going to the front of the net expecting to get hit. That's part of his game, so it's only fair to hold him to a higher standard there.

I think it's interesting that we haven't heard from McTavish yet. The Blues may be waiting for a chance to publicly unveil him, and have asked him to hold off making a statement until then? I still remember the Blues, when they signed Scott Stevens from NJD (tampering), unveiling him over the VP fair July 4th weekend.

I actually think it's a good sign that McTavish isn't rushing to make a statement or greet his new fans - I take it as a sign that he's more interested in putting in the work and hope it means he'll show us just how quick on his feet he can be (the knock on him last year). If he's busy getting lean and quick, I don't mind some delayed gratification in the form of few public quotes.

The stats show that McTavish is a far worse defensive player than Kyrou ever was....so it seems like we gave up 2 1st rounds picks for a player that doesn't have a flaw that Kyrou currently has, but DOES have one that we demanded Kyrou fix and he did.

By any measure, that is NOT improvement folks....

That's not even true.

https://livinghockey.com/player/8482745/mason-mctavish

McTavish had a similarly high Corsi% and xGF% last year, albeit in sheltered minutes. His Corsi has always been north of 50%, and his Fenwick and GF hovered around 50 while playing on some awful teams prior to this year.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, McTavish fills a glaring hole at 2C. Kyrou doesn't. Neither would the players we would have drafted, and certainly not next year.

You're wrong in that that Corsi and Fenwick don't measure defensive prowess...they are puck possession stats. But at least you made an attempt and didn't just call names. They tell you nothing about play when not in possession of the puck. Over his career, McTavish is a -54 (Ugh) while scoring 104 pts. I don't care how bad the goaltending was that is atrocious.

The one good thing I will say about McTavish is his faceoff % which is 56%. The Blues are bad at that and this is would be an improvement.

Since you care so much about "argument", let's talk the fallacy of the strawman. It's when an opponent (you) can't answer an argument that is made (I rejected your claim that the stats show McTavish is a worse defender than Kyrou, and pointed out that the Corsi and GF for McTavish are very close to Kyrou's). Instead of answering that argument, you claim I wrongly stated that "Corsi and Fenwick don't measure defensive prowess" (I never claimed that, I am well aware of how they measure puck possession). Then you claim they tell you nothing about what happens when a team isn't in possession of the puck.

While that's true, here's where you're wrong. The fact that those ANA teams spent so little time in possession tells you they were systematically bad at recovering possession. The real question is whether McTavish was bad because he played for a bad team, or whether his badness made the team bad. To answer that, we need to see how his puck possession stats compare to his teammates (relative CF%). McTavish typically ranks above the team average, indicating his teams tend to control the puck more when he's on the ice than when he isn't. This shows that McTavish made ANA better, and their overall poor play in his first years impacted his numbers more than vice versa.

Then you quote is plus/minus, which again just means his teams stank. What is more important is relative plus/minus, where he is roughly team-average. As expected, when ANA got better, his plus/minus improved as well.

This isn't about bad goaltending. It's about playing for a team that wasn't good at possessing the puck until Q got their and enough of their youth matured.

Pretty much gobbledygook throughout, but somewhere in the middle there you did get around to admitting I'm right while making a valiant attemp to disguise it.

[Army's Mom]

He sent out a thank you to the Ducks the other day and at the end he said he was excited to be coming to the Blues organization. I would imagine we will be hearing some interviews from him soon.

What will be interesting to see is if the Blues make the same demands for defensive play of McTavish that they condemned Kyrou for a lack of.

Your argument here being that the Blues should make NO demands of their forwards playing defense?

Just because you have the word fool in your handle doesn’t mean you have to be one.

Total misread of what I said...on the contrary I believe that such demands SHOULD be made, to a certain extent...but they should be consistent for every player. And yes, I 'll be calling out posters who excuse McTavish for mistakes they condemned Kyrou for.

Kyrou’s issue last year wasn’t defensively related it was his absolute refusal to take a hit to make a play. Many have pointed to the Stanley hit in the Jets’ series and that correlates with what was on display last season. Over and over he refused to get pucks into the offensive end at the blue line. He would literally just give up pucks to avoid hits, or would make blind panicked cross ice passes to no one. So in that regard I believe they will hold McTavish to a higher standard and I also assume it won’t be an issue.

Agreed. To his credit, I think Kyrou largely "fixed" the defensive holes in his game - Corsi% and xGF suggest he crushed his minutes. My problem was the visible lack of effort at retaining possession when a hit was coming - something not directly measured in the stats. I think if he meshes with his linemates in WSH, he's a prime rebound candidate - I'm glad he should get a fresh start there. But with our influx of youth, I didn't want his "turnovers to avoid a hit" getting contagious.

Now, on topic, I expect McTavish to take hits. He has that reputation for being good in the paint, and that's what I want to see - it's a MUCH higher standard than I had for Kyrou - yes, I don't want to see McTavish give up the puck to avoid a hit (same as Kyrou), but I also want to see McTavish going to the front of the net expecting to get hit. That's part of his game, so it's only fair to hold him to a higher standard there.

I think it's interesting that we haven't heard from McTavish yet. The Blues may be waiting for a chance to publicly unveil him, and have asked him to hold off making a statement until then? I still remember the Blues, when they signed Scott Stevens from NJD (tampering), unveiling him over the VP fair July 4th weekend.

I actually think it's a good sign that McTavish isn't rushing to make a statement or greet his new fans - I take it as a sign that he's more interested in putting in the work and hope it means he'll show us just how quick on his feet he can be (the knock on him last year). If he's busy getting lean and quick, I don't mind some delayed gratification in the form of few public quotes.

The stats show that McTavish is a far worse defensive player than Kyrou ever was....so it seems like we gave up 2 1st rounds picks for a player that doesn't have a flaw that Kyrou currently has, but DOES have one that we demanded Kyrou fix and he did.

By any measure, that is NOT improvement folks....

That's not even true.

https://livinghockey.com/player/8482745/mason-mctavish

McTavish had a similarly high Corsi% and xGF% last year, albeit in sheltered minutes. His Corsi has always been north of 50%, and his Fenwick and GF hovered around 50 while playing on some awful teams prior to this year.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, McTavish fills a glaring hole at 2C. Kyrou doesn't. Neither would the players we would have drafted, and certainly not next year.

You're wrong in that that Corsi and Fenwick don't measure defensive prowess...they are puck possession stats. But at least you made an attempt and didn't just call names. They tell you nothing about play when not in possession of the puck. Over his career, McTavish is a -54 (Ugh) while scoring 104 pts. I don't care how bad the goaltending was that is atrocious.

The one good thing I will say about McTavish is his faceoff % which is 56%. The Blues are bad at that and this is would be an improvement.

Since you care so much about "argument", let's talk the fallacy of the strawman. It's when an opponent (you) can't answer an argument that is made (I rejected your claim that the stats show McTavish is a worse defender than Kyrou, and pointed out that the Corsi and GF for McTavish are very close to Kyrou's). Instead of answering that argument, you claim I wrongly stated that "Corsi and Fenwick don't measure defensive prowess" (I never claimed that, I am well aware of how they measure puck possession). Then you claim they tell you nothing about what happens when a team isn't in possession of the puck.

While that's true, here's where you're wrong. The fact that those ANA teams spent so little time in possession tells you they were systematically bad at recovering possession. The real question is whether McTavish was bad because he played for a bad team, or whether his badness made the team bad. To answer that, we need to see how his puck possession stats compare to his teammates (relative CF%). McTavish typically ranks above the team average, indicating his teams tend to control the puck more when he's on the ice than when he isn't. This shows that McTavish made ANA better, and their overall poor play in his first years impacted his numbers more than vice versa.

Then you quote is plus/minus, which again just means his teams stank. What is more important is relative plus/minus, where he is roughly team-average. As expected, when ANA got better, his plus/minus improved as well.

This isn't about bad goaltending. It's about playing for a team that wasn't good at possessing the puck until Q got their and enough of their youth matured.

Pretty much gobbledygook throughout, but somewhere in the middle there you did get around to admitting I'm right while making a valiant attemp to disguise it.

Your lack of comprehension is plain for everybody here to read. My work is done.

[son_of_foolsgold]

He sent out a thank you to the Ducks the other day and at the end he said he was excited to be coming to the Blues organization. I would imagine we will be hearing some interviews from him soon.

What will be interesting to see is if the Blues make the same demands for defensive play of McTavish that they condemned Kyrou for a lack of.

Your argument here being that the Blues should make NO demands of their forwards playing defense?

Just because you have the word fool in your handle doesn’t mean you have to be one.

Total misread of what I said...on the contrary I believe that such demands SHOULD be made, to a certain extent...but they should be consistent for every player. And yes, I 'll be calling out posters who excuse McTavish for mistakes they condemned Kyrou for.

Kyrou’s issue last year wasn’t defensively related it was his absolute refusal to take a hit to make a play. Many have pointed to the Stanley hit in the Jets’ series and that correlates with what was on display last season. Over and over he refused to get pucks into the offensive end at the blue line. He would literally just give up pucks to avoid hits, or would make blind panicked cross ice passes to no one. So in that regard I believe they will hold McTavish to a higher standard and I also assume it won’t be an issue.

Agreed. To his credit, I think Kyrou largely "fixed" the defensive holes in his game - Corsi% and xGF suggest he crushed his minutes. My problem was the visible lack of effort at retaining possession when a hit was coming - something not directly measured in the stats. I think if he meshes with his linemates in WSH, he's a prime rebound candidate - I'm glad he should get a fresh start there. But with our influx of youth, I didn't want his "turnovers to avoid a hit" getting contagious.

Now, on topic, I expect McTavish to take hits. He has that reputation for being good in the paint, and that's what I want to see - it's a MUCH higher standard than I had for Kyrou - yes, I don't want to see McTavish give up the puck to avoid a hit (same as Kyrou), but I also want to see McTavish going to the front of the net expecting to get hit. That's part of his game, so it's only fair to hold him to a higher standard there.

I think it's interesting that we haven't heard from McTavish yet. The Blues may be waiting for a chance to publicly unveil him, and have asked him to hold off making a statement until then? I still remember the Blues, when they signed Scott Stevens from NJD (tampering), unveiling him over the VP fair July 4th weekend.

I actually think it's a good sign that McTavish isn't rushing to make a statement or greet his new fans - I take it as a sign that he's more interested in putting in the work and hope it means he'll show us just how quick on his feet he can be (the knock on him last year). If he's busy getting lean and quick, I don't mind some delayed gratification in the form of few public quotes.

The stats show that McTavish is a far worse defensive player than Kyrou ever was....so it seems like we gave up 2 1st rounds picks for a player that doesn't have a flaw that Kyrou currently has, but DOES have one that we demanded Kyrou fix and he did.

By any measure, that is NOT improvement folks....

That's not even true.

https://livinghockey.com/player/8482745/mason-mctavish

McTavish had a similarly high Corsi% and xGF% last year, albeit in sheltered minutes. His Corsi has always been north of 50%, and his Fenwick and GF hovered around 50 while playing on some awful teams prior to this year.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, McTavish fills a glaring hole at 2C. Kyrou doesn't. Neither would the players we would have drafted, and certainly not next year.

You're wrong in that that Corsi and Fenwick don't measure defensive prowess...they are puck possession stats. But at least you made an attempt and didn't just call names. They tell you nothing about play when not in possession of the puck. Over his career, McTavish is a -54 (Ugh) while scoring 104 pts. I don't care how bad the goaltending was that is atrocious.

The one good thing I will say about McTavish is his faceoff % which is 56%. The Blues are bad at that and this is would be an improvement.

Since you care so much about "argument", let's talk the fallacy of the strawman. It's when an opponent (you) can't answer an argument that is made (I rejected your claim that the stats show McTavish is a worse defender than Kyrou, and pointed out that the Corsi and GF for McTavish are very close to Kyrou's). Instead of answering that argument, you claim I wrongly stated that "Corsi and Fenwick don't measure defensive prowess" (I never claimed that, I am well aware of how they measure puck possession). Then you claim they tell you nothing about what happens when a team isn't in possession of the puck.

While that's true, here's where you're wrong. The fact that those ANA teams spent so little time in possession tells you they were systematically bad at recovering possession. The real question is whether McTavish was bad because he played for a bad team, or whether his badness made the team bad. To answer that, we need to see how his puck possession stats compare to his teammates (relative CF%). McTavish typically ranks above the team average, indicating his teams tend to control the puck more when he's on the ice than when he isn't. This shows that McTavish made ANA better, and their overall poor play in his first years impacted his numbers more than vice versa.

Then you quote is plus/minus, which again just means his teams stank. What is more important is relative plus/minus, where he is roughly team-average. As expected, when ANA got better, his plus/minus improved as well.

This isn't about bad goaltending. It's about playing for a team that wasn't good at possessing the puck until Q got their and enough of their youth matured.

Pretty much gobbledygook throughout, but somewhere in the middle there you did get around to admitting I'm right while making a valiant attemp to disguise it.

Your lack of comprehension is plain for everybody here to read. My work is done.

Nice admission of defeat

[Army's Mom]

What will be interesting to see is if the Blues make the same demands for defensive play of McTavish that they condemned Kyrou for a lack of.

Your argument here being that the Blues should make NO demands of their forwards playing defense?

Just because you have the word fool in your handle doesn’t mean you have to be one.

Total misread of what I said...on the contrary I believe that such demands SHOULD be made, to a certain extent...but they should be consistent for every player. And yes, I 'll be calling out posters who excuse McTavish for mistakes they condemned Kyrou for.

Kyrou’s issue last year wasn’t defensively related it was his absolute refusal to take a hit to make a play. Many have pointed to the Stanley hit in the Jets’ series and that correlates with what was on display last season. Over and over he refused to get pucks into the offensive end at the blue line. He would literally just give up pucks to avoid hits, or would make blind panicked cross ice passes to no one. So in that regard I believe they will hold McTavish to a higher standard and I also assume it won’t be an issue.

Agreed. To his credit, I think Kyrou largely "fixed" the defensive holes in his game - Corsi% and xGF suggest he crushed his minutes. My problem was the visible lack of effort at retaining possession when a hit was coming - something not directly measured in the stats. I think if he meshes with his linemates in WSH, he's a prime rebound candidate - I'm glad he should get a fresh start there. But with our influx of youth, I didn't want his "turnovers to avoid a hit" getting contagious.

Now, on topic, I expect McTavish to take hits. He has that reputation for being good in the paint, and that's what I want to see - it's a MUCH higher standard than I had for Kyrou - yes, I don't want to see McTavish give up the puck to avoid a hit (same as Kyrou), but I also want to see McTavish going to the front of the net expecting to get hit. That's part of his game, so it's only fair to hold him to a higher standard there.

I think it's interesting that we haven't heard from McTavish yet. The Blues may be waiting for a chance to publicly unveil him, and have asked him to hold off making a statement until then? I still remember the Blues, when they signed Scott Stevens from NJD (tampering), unveiling him over the VP fair July 4th weekend.

I actually think it's a good sign that McTavish isn't rushing to make a statement or greet his new fans - I take it as a sign that he's more interested in putting in the work and hope it means he'll show us just how quick on his feet he can be (the knock on him last year). If he's busy getting lean and quick, I don't mind some delayed gratification in the form of few public quotes.

The stats show that McTavish is a far worse defensive player than Kyrou ever was....so it seems like we gave up 2 1st rounds picks for a player that doesn't have a flaw that Kyrou currently has, but DOES have one that we demanded Kyrou fix and he did.

By any measure, that is NOT improvement folks....

That's not even true.

https://livinghockey.com/player/8482745/mason-mctavish

McTavish had a similarly high Corsi% and xGF% last year, albeit in sheltered minutes. His Corsi has always been north of 50%, and his Fenwick and GF hovered around 50 while playing on some awful teams prior to this year.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, McTavish fills a glaring hole at 2C. Kyrou doesn't. Neither would the players we would have drafted, and certainly not next year.

You're wrong in that that Corsi and Fenwick don't measure defensive prowess...they are puck possession stats. But at least you made an attempt and didn't just call names. They tell you nothing about play when not in possession of the puck. Over his career, McTavish is a -54 (Ugh) while scoring 104 pts. I don't care how bad the goaltending was that is atrocious.

The one good thing I will say about McTavish is his faceoff % which is 56%. The Blues are bad at that and this is would be an improvement.

Since you care so much about "argument", let's talk the fallacy of the strawman. It's when an opponent (you) can't answer an argument that is made (I rejected your claim that the stats show McTavish is a worse defender than Kyrou, and pointed out that the Corsi and GF for McTavish are very close to Kyrou's). Instead of answering that argument, you claim I wrongly stated that "Corsi and Fenwick don't measure defensive prowess" (I never claimed that, I am well aware of how they measure puck possession). Then you claim they tell you nothing about what happens when a team isn't in possession of the puck.

While that's true, here's where you're wrong. The fact that those ANA teams spent so little time in possession tells you they were systematically bad at recovering possession. The real question is whether McTavish was bad because he played for a bad team, or whether his badness made the team bad. To answer that, we need to see how his puck possession stats compare to his teammates (relative CF%). McTavish typically ranks above the team average, indicating his teams tend to control the puck more when he's on the ice than when he isn't. This shows that McTavish made ANA better, and their overall poor play in his first years impacted his numbers more than vice versa.

Then you quote is plus/minus, which again just means his teams stank. What is more important is relative plus/minus, where he is roughly team-average. As expected, when ANA got better, his plus/minus improved as well.

This isn't about bad goaltending. It's about playing for a team that wasn't good at possessing the puck until Q got their and enough of their youth matured.

Pretty much gobbledygook throughout, but somewhere in the middle there you did get around to admitting I'm right while making a valiant attemp to disguise it.

Your lack of comprehension is plain for everybody here to read. My work is done.

Nice admission of defeat

What's the joke about never playing chess against pigeon? Surely, you know the one...