But you gave me a no win scenerio. Unless I just stick with Dobbins.
On the other hand, the game could be 6-0 Cards. Now maybe I keep Dobbins in for the ninth.
Or.
6-0 them. I keep Dobbins on for ninth.
So 2/3 of these scenerio go my way.
You: “X pitcher starts. Dobbins pitches the rest of the game. Every 5th day. Bullpen scheduled rest.”
Me: “okay, what about this example.”
You: “okay…except for that example.”
Fact is, every game is different. I love having long relievers but you never know, from game to game, when best to properly deploy them.
So when you schedule them as a piggyback for one pitcher, your primary goal is covering innings. Not winning the game at hand.
I see your covering innings point. That’s why they work thru their own messes. Not to burn pen.
But winning is the reason the strategy. That’s the end state.
In your perfect world, Dobbins pitches 4+ innings in relief for X starter once a week.
How is that any different than Dobbins pitching 4+ innings throughout the week, relieving multiple pitchers?
Rest. If Dobbins pitches multilevel times per five days, I’m afraid he won’t be able to go four as often.
All I’m doing is pitching six starters of five days, normal rest: in all six starter games, we use too many pitchers. In a piggy back we hopefully use one closer or reliever.
Gives the pen an anticipated day off. Then two pitchers going full for four each, stands a good chance of a win.
Maybe Pallante and Dobbins.
1. Not sure if you are following. In your perfect world, Dobbins pitches about 4-5 innings ONE time a week. But if he pitches in multiple outings and it adds up to a total of 4-5 innings a week, it's the same amount of total work, right?
2. We already proved yesterday that you can't anticipate a day off for the ENTIRE pen.
3. And just like my point #1, why does all the pen need to rest the same day? Can't Oli just say, for example, "Stanek pitched two days in a row and is getting the day off today."
Wasn’t following well. I was using Dobbins in your scenerio twice x four /five innnings each. You wanna use him twice at 2 innings each. That would work. But it will not reduce the pen load. He just becomes one in a line.
A game yesterday would have been perfect Dobbins games
As for resting pen. Like a complete game, the piggy back rests the pen.
1. If total bullpen innings were a pie, and if Dobbins is taking the same 4-5 inning slice a week, it doesn't matter how it's broken up. It rests the pen the same way. In your scenario, those OTHER four starts, the bullpen is one man down (Dobbins) and has to work extra hard.
2. You said "the game yesterday would've been perfect for Dobbins." Okay, but you didn't know that until the game played out, right?
Number two. I would have planned for McG to go six, perfect world. Then I could throw Dobbins, under this scenerio.
In your scenerio the pen would be without Dobbins on certain days anyway. So the pen is still a man down.
1. But you can't plan it, can you? Because we don't know. Maybe McG goes 6 and the game is 1-1, and the Rangers have LHH coming up in the 7th who crush RHP. Why would Dobbins be the best option?
2. The pen would be without Dobbins because he would be 'unavailable' because of workload. Why can't Oli do that individually with every bullpen arm?
Lastly, you said last night would've been perfect for Dobbins to come in. But I don't understand why. You're up 6-0 with 3 innings to go. Why not pitch GG and Stanek (like was done) and have Dobbins available this weekend?
Under my scenerio, if Dobbins was scheduled to follow McG, three innings would have been great. Save three relievers for today.
Then pitch Dobbins again three days later- your scenerio. Both systems could work. One is currently employed, 5/6 starters. The other, the piggy back, is a thought.
And I’m still only talking about BASICALLY the number five spot.
Yesterday: Let's say McGreevy pitched exactly the same, then Dobbins came in and pitched three.
Cool. But that's not something you can 'plan' ahead of time. And, if you're planning it ahead of time, your 'goal' is merely covering innings, not winning the game.
During a season, sometimes opportunities present themselves, like a reliever gets into a scenario where pitching 3 innings makes sense. But you can't plan it...What if Dobbins came in yesterday, gave up 5 runs in the 7th and pitched 38 pitches? You bringing him out in the 8th?
Tough call on bringing out Dobbins. Based on pitch count. By then , sooner or later he should build endurance. Under that scenerio, at 36 pitches, he goes back out.
Hey man, great debate. I’m not swayed from my thoughts, but I can’t penetrate your defenses.
You: “X pitcher starts. Dobbins pitches the rest of the game. Every 5th day. Bullpen scheduled rest.”
Me: “okay, what about this example.”
You: “okay…except for that example.”
Fact is, every game is different. I love having long relievers but you never know, from game to game, when best to properly deploy them.
So when you schedule them as a piggyback for one pitcher, your primary goal is covering innings. Not winning the game at hand.
I see your covering innings point. That’s why they work thru their own messes. Not to burn pen.
But winning is the reason the strategy. That’s the end state.
In your perfect world, Dobbins pitches 4+ innings in relief for X starter once a week.
How is that any different than Dobbins pitching 4+ innings throughout the week, relieving multiple pitchers?
Rest. If Dobbins pitches multilevel times per five days, I’m afraid he won’t be able to go four as often.
All I’m doing is pitching six starters of five days, normal rest: in all six starter games, we use too many pitchers. In a piggy back we hopefully use one closer or reliever.
Gives the pen an anticipated day off. Then two pitchers going full for four each, stands a good chance of a win.
Maybe Pallante and Dobbins.
1. Not sure if you are following. In your perfect world, Dobbins pitches about 4-5 innings ONE time a week. But if he pitches in multiple outings and it adds up to a total of 4-5 innings a week, it's the same amount of total work, right?
2. We already proved yesterday that you can't anticipate a day off for the ENTIRE pen.
3. And just like my point #1, why does all the pen need to rest the same day? Can't Oli just say, for example, "Stanek pitched two days in a row and is getting the day off today."
Wasn’t following well. I was using Dobbins in your scenerio twice x four /five innnings each. You wanna use him twice at 2 innings each. That would work. But it will not reduce the pen load. He just becomes one in a line.
A game yesterday would have been perfect Dobbins games
As for resting pen. Like a complete game, the piggy back rests the pen.
1. If total bullpen innings were a pie, and if Dobbins is taking the same 4-5 inning slice a week, it doesn't matter how it's broken up. It rests the pen the same way. In your scenario, those OTHER four starts, the bullpen is one man down (Dobbins) and has to work extra hard.
2. You said "the game yesterday would've been perfect for Dobbins." Okay, but you didn't know that until the game played out, right?
Number two. I would have planned for McG to go six, perfect world. Then I could throw Dobbins, under this scenerio.
In your scenerio the pen would be without Dobbins on certain days anyway. So the pen is still a man down.
1. But you can't plan it, can you? Because we don't know. Maybe McG goes 6 and the game is 1-1, and the Rangers have LHH coming up in the 7th who crush RHP. Why would Dobbins be the best option?
2. The pen would be without Dobbins because he would be 'unavailable' because of workload. Why can't Oli do that individually with every bullpen arm?
Lastly, you said last night would've been perfect for Dobbins to come in. But I don't understand why. You're up 6-0 with 3 innings to go. Why not pitch GG and Stanek (like was done) and have Dobbins available this weekend?
Under my scenerio, if Dobbins was scheduled to follow McG, three innings would have been great. Save three relievers for today.
Then pitch Dobbins again three days later- your scenerio. Both systems could work. One is currently employed, 5/6 starters. The other, the piggy back, is a thought.
And I’m still only talking about BASICALLY the number five spot.
Yesterday: Let's say McGreevy pitched exactly the same, then Dobbins came in and pitched three.
Cool. But that's not something you can 'plan' ahead of time. And, if you're planning it ahead of time, your 'goal' is merely covering innings, not winning the game.
During a season, sometimes opportunities present themselves, like a reliever gets into a scenario where pitching 3 innings makes sense. But you can't plan it...What if Dobbins came in yesterday, gave up 5 runs in the 7th and pitched 38 pitches? You bringing him out in the 8th?
Tough call on bringing out Dobbins. Based on pitch count. By then , sooner or later he should build endurance. Under that scenerio, at 36 pitches, he goes back out.
Hey man, great debate. I’m not swayed from my thoughts, but I can’t penetrate your defenses.
Yeah good debate!
But maybe without realizing it, your last post 100% proved my point.
My example above is a 6-0 cardinals game after 6. Dobbins comes in in the 7th, surrenders 5 runs where presumably the opposing team batted around in their order. Ugly inning.
And you say you bring Dobbins back out in the 8th, and your rationale is that he probably isn’t tired.
As I have said, your focus is covering innings, not winning the game.
