Cardinals get an A-: but

[2ninr]

And guys criticize the high velocity arms we are drafting and trading for. This is why

Problem is none of them can stay healthy or throw strikes.

Graceffo and Hence have already been demoted to relief careers.

Graceffo was never high velocity. He and McGreevy were drafted as pitch to contact control guys. You are right about the injuries and control. But we are in the infancy of developing these kinds of pitchers. But it's how teams are winning playoff games. I expect us to continue. Our system has been flooded with them since Bloom arrived.

[mattmitchl44]

And guys criticize the high velocity arms we are drafting and trading for. This is why

Problem is none of them can stay healthy or throw strikes.

Graceffo and Hence have already been demoted to relief careers.

At least if you focus on guys with power arms, they have a better chance of being able to move into being productive RPs if they fail as SPs than finesse SP prospects do if they fail.

[dhsux]

No but's about it here.

And they get an A.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Nah. O'Brien has 5 years of control left. We don't have a reason in the world to trade him.

If I get a decent offer for him, he's gone. He's 31 years old. He has a massive history of injuries. He pitched 48 MLB innings for us last year. His previous high was 8. Relievers are notoriously unstable. Maybe we'll get a better offer due to the control.

[3dender]

Nah. O'Brien has 5 years of control left. We don't have a reason in the world to trade him.

If I get a decent offer for him, he's gone. He's 31 years old. He has a massive history of injuries. He pitched 48 MLB innings for us last year. His previous high was 8. Relievers are notoriously unstable. Maybe we'll get a better offer due to the control.

Yup... I think how people feel about keeping/trading ROB is directly related to how soon they expect this team to be in true contention. If you accept it's not gonna be until 2028 at the earliest, then keeping him around if he's still performing at an elite level this July would be asinine.

[Carp4Cy]

Nah. O'Brien has 5 years of control left. We don't have a reason in the world to trade him.

If I get a decent offer for him, he's gone. He's 31 years old. He has a massive history of injuries. He pitched 48 MLB innings for us last year. His previous high was 8. Relievers are notoriously unstable. Maybe we'll get a better offer due to the control.

Yup... I think how people feel about keeping/trading ROB is directly related to how soon they expect this team to be in true contention. If you accept it's not gonna be until 2028 at the earliest, then keeping him around if he's still performing at an elite level this July would be asinine.

Depends on what we get in return.

Trading him for an injured lotto ticket so we can pretend we got more than zero value because we are pretending we Know his own value will immediately expire after 2026 would be asinine.

Some players don’t hit their stride until later and stay good for a long time. We don’t KNOW he is going to tank. So we Have to get equal value back or you just don’t trade. There is no urgency unless we pretend there is.

[ClassicO]

No serious injuries and strengthen bull pen, why can’t we be a playoff team?

I think those are very legitimate concers, however, your point is very well taken. They may need some luck, perhaps more than if the pitching were more complete, but yeah, I'm starting to come around to your thinking.

There will certainly be injuries. And while strengthening the bullpen could conceivably get us to the tail end of the playoffs, that too is a crapshoot. But I don’t see any world in which we would go very far. Bloom has a plan. I think sticking with that plan is far more important than where we end up at the end of this year.
All of that stated, I also see a world where we are competitive next year, a team that could make a run. I would’ve given you long odds on that a month ago.

And as 3ender said, don’t blow a gasket when it all catches up to us. Because it will.

+1

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Depends on what we get in return.

Trading him for an injured lotto ticket so we can pretend we got more than zero value because we are pretending we Know his own value will immediately expire after 2026 would be asinine.

Some players don’t hit their stride until later and stay good for a long time. We don’t KNOW he is going to tank. So we Have to get equal value back or you just don’t trade. There is no urgency unless we pretend there is.

Well, sure, just don't give him away. But if Bloom is getting decent offers for him, you have to trade him.

To your point about players not hitting their stride until later and staying good for a long time. What historical precedence is there for a player hitting his stride at 31 and staying good for a long time? He's 31. Even if he hits his stride, how many years does he have left to stay good?

[Cusecards]

No serious injuries and strengthen bull pen, why can’t we be a playoff team?

I think those are very legitimate concers, however, your point is very well taken. They may need some luck, perhaps more than if the pitching were more complete, but yeah, I'm starting to come around to your thinking.

There will certainly be injuries. And while strengthening the bullpen could conceivably get us to the tail end of the playoffs, that too is a crapshoot. But I don’t see any world in which we would go very far. Bloom has a plan. I think sticking with that plan is far more important than where we end up at the end of this year.
All of that stated, I also see a world where we are competitive next year, a team that could make a run. I would’ve given you long odds on that a month ago.

And as 3ender said, don’t blow a gasket when it all catches up to us. Because it will.

I’m in complete agreement, Satch. I think it would have to be a pretty charmed year to make it this season. I’m beginning to think it’s within the realm of possibility, though, which I didn’t believe back in March.

That said, I also agree with you about staying the course. The last thing I want to see is them get impatient, do something foolish, and chase something that probably isn’t yet there, just to get beaten early. If they slide in as-is, outstanding. Anything is gravy at that point. If they trade for rentals, I’ll be most put out.

Well said!
Based on the preseason expectations I’d be ecstatic if they hang above .500.
My hope? They are playing meaningful games for the vast majority of the season.
Playing meaningful games speaks more to the “progress” of the younger players.
Playing meaningless games....not so much!

[hugeCardfan]

Nah. O'Brien has 5 years of control left. We don't have a reason in the world to trade him.

If I get a decent offer for him, he's gone. He's 31 years old. He has a massive history of injuries. He pitched 48 MLB innings for us last year. His previous high was 8. Relievers are notoriously unstable. Maybe we'll get a better offer due to the control.

Yeah, and maybe we end up with a Stanek like pitcher trying to close for us. No thanks. O'Brien only has one ML season behind him. He's finally learned how to shut down ML hitting and has a couple killer pitches in his repetoir. If we come up with a better closer then I'd settle for O'Brien being a setup guy; even shutting down a rally in the 7th. Sorry, when you have a guy who works as well as O'Brien in that role you don't send him away until your bullpen is brimming with replacements. That's what the Brewers have done and it works. We aren't there yet.

[3dender]

Nah. O'Brien has 5 years of control left. We don't have a reason in the world to trade him.

If I get a decent offer for him, he's gone. He's 31 years old. He has a massive history of injuries. He pitched 48 MLB innings for us last year. His previous high was 8. Relievers are notoriously unstable. Maybe we'll get a better offer due to the control.

Yup... I think how people feel about keeping/trading ROB is directly related to how soon they expect this team to be in true contention. If you accept it's not gonna be until 2028 at the earliest, then keeping him around if he's still performing at an elite level this July would be asinine.

Depends on what we get in return.

Trading him for an injured lotto ticket so we can pretend we got more than zero value because we are pretending we Know his own value will immediately expire after 2026 would be asinine.

Some players don’t hit their stride until later and stay good for a long time. We don’t KNOW he is going to tank. So we Have to get equal value back or you just don’t trade. There is no urgency unless we pretend there is.

I mean they got Yhoiker Fajardo as a throw-in lottery ticket for Willson Contreras, one of three players in the package. He's now absolutely dominating High-A at age 19, has a 9 (!!) K/BB ratio, and may be pushing into the convo for top 10 Cards prospect by the end of the year.

Yes I absolutely would trade O'Brien for just one guy who has a decent chance of becoming another Yhoiker Fajardo. All smart GMs would.

[3dender]

Nah. O'Brien has 5 years of control left. We don't have a reason in the world to trade him.

If I get a decent offer for him, he's gone. He's 31 years old. He has a massive history of injuries. He pitched 48 MLB innings for us last year. His previous high was 8. Relievers are notoriously unstable. Maybe we'll get a better offer due to the control.

Yeah, and maybe we end up with a Stanek like pitcher trying to close for us. No thanks. O'Brien only has one ML season behind him. He's finally learned how to shut down ML hitting and has a couple killer pitches in his repetoir. If we come up with a better closer then I'd settle for O'Brien being a setup guy; even shutting down a rally in the 7th. Sorry, when you have a guy who works as well as O'Brien in that role you don't send him away until your bullpen is brimming with replacements. That's what the Brewers have done and it works. We aren't there yet.

Ok, I'm going to grant the premise that they need to worry about how good their BP is this year and next, which for the record I disagree with because it's a rebuild.

But granting that, was the BP "brimming with replacements" when they traded away Helsley and Matz and Maton last year? No, it wasn't, and yet other guys stepped up to fill the void... Svanson last year, Romero/O'Brien both years, Graceffo/Soriano this year.

Because relief pitchers and bench players are the most fungible part of a roster, and volatile af, and guys often come out of nowhere to perform pretty darn well. And there are always reclamation projects like Soriano that a good F.O. can find.

So if they trade away O'Brien there's a decent chance it'll happen again. No brimming over necessary.

[11WSChamps]

So the few of us who said we don't have pitching depth at this time were correct?

No reasonable person would have thought otherwise..

[hugeCardfan]

Nah. O'Brien has 5 years of control left. We don't have a reason in the world to trade him.

If I get a decent offer for him, he's gone. He's 31 years old. He has a massive history of injuries. He pitched 48 MLB innings for us last year. His previous high was 8. Relievers are notoriously unstable. Maybe we'll get a better offer due to the control.

Yeah, and maybe we end up with a Stanek like pitcher trying to close for us. No thanks. O'Brien only has one ML season behind him. He's finally learned how to shut down ML hitting and has a couple killer pitches in his repetoir. If we come up with a better closer then I'd settle for O'Brien being a setup guy; even shutting down a rally in the 7th. Sorry, when you have a guy who works as well as O'Brien in that role you don't send him away until your bullpen is brimming with replacements. That's what the Brewers have done and it works. We aren't there yet.

Ok, I'm going to grant the premise that they need to worry about how good their BP is this year and next, which for the record I disagree with because it's a rebuild.

But granting that, was the BP "brimming with replacements" when they traded away Helsley and Matz and Maton last year? No, it wasn't, and yet other guys stepped up to fill the void... Svanson last year, Romero/O'Brien both years, Graceffo/Soriano this year.

Because relief pitchers and bench players are the most fungible part of a roster, and volatile af, and guys often come out of nowhere to perform pretty darn well. And there are always reclamation projects like Soriano that a good F.O. can find.

So if they trade away O'Brien there's a decent chance it'll happen again. No brimming over necessary.

Huh? What do Helsley, Matz and Maton have to do with O'Brien? Helsley was half way out the door unless we wanted to to buy out FA years. Matz was running around on fumes with an expiring ML contract and Matton was a loaner. O'Brien is a closer with 5 years of control pitching at minimum wage. He has a couple fistfuls of saves already and likely gonna get a whole bunch more.

Just to be clear, our bullpen is a bit of a mess this year...so nooooo, stepping up is not the way I would describe this year's pen. We have enough holes in the pen to sink the Titanic. Oli has done a masterful job to wire this group together to keep us in more games than I thought possible. The only guys consistent are Romero and O'Brien. Romero is now a loaner; so trade away, unless we are in it to win it.

I have no problem with the logic that "it's a rebuild". But, we rebuild with guys who have time and are getting it done. O'Brien, step forward!

So, NOOOO. Don't trade.

[3dender]

Nah. O'Brien has 5 years of control left. We don't have a reason in the world to trade him.

If I get a decent offer for him, he's gone. He's 31 years old. He has a massive history of injuries. He pitched 48 MLB innings for us last year. His previous high was 8. Relievers are notoriously unstable. Maybe we'll get a better offer due to the control.

Yeah, and maybe we end up with a Stanek like pitcher trying to close for us. No thanks. O'Brien only has one ML season behind him. He's finally learned how to shut down ML hitting and has a couple killer pitches in his repetoir. If we come up with a better closer then I'd settle for O'Brien being a setup guy; even shutting down a rally in the 7th. Sorry, when you have a guy who works as well as O'Brien in that role you don't send him away until your bullpen is brimming with replacements. That's what the Brewers have done and it works. We aren't there yet.

Ok, I'm going to grant the premise that they need to worry about how good their BP is this year and next, which for the record I disagree with because it's a rebuild.

But granting that, was the BP "brimming with replacements" when they traded away Helsley and Matz and Maton last year? No, it wasn't, and yet other guys stepped up to fill the void... Svanson last year, Romero/O'Brien both years, Graceffo/Soriano this year.

Because relief pitchers and bench players are the most fungible part of a roster, and volatile af, and guys often come out of nowhere to perform pretty darn well. And there are always reclamation projects like Soriano that a good F.O. can find.

So if they trade away O'Brien there's a decent chance it'll happen again. No brimming over necessary.

Huh? What do Helsley, Matz and Maton have to do with O'Brien? Helsley was half way out the door unless we wanted to to buy out FA years. Matz was running around on fumes with an expiring ML contract and Matton was a loaner. O'Brien is a closer with 5 years of control pitching at minimum wage. He has a couple fistfuls of saves already and likely gonna get a whole bunch more.

Just to be clear, our bullpen is a bit of a mess this year...so nooooo, stepping up is not the way I would describe this year's pen. We have enough holes in the pen to sink the Titanic. Oli has done a masterful job to wire this group together to keep us in more games than I thought possible. The only guys consistent are Romero and O'Brien. Romero is now a loaner; so trade away, unless we are in it to win it.

I have no problem with the logic that "it's a rebuild". But, we rebuild with guys who have time and are getting it done. O'Brien, step forward!

So, NOOOO. Don't trade.

You're ignoring the pretty relevant facts that 1) he's 31 years old, 2) he's injury-prone and 3) relievers in general are very volatile.

Given that this team doesn't actually need a good BP until 2028, it's exponentially smarter to get whatever you can for him now than it is to hold onto him and hope he's still a good reliever 2 years from now when he's 33 years old.

[hugeCardfan]

So the few of us who said we don't have pitching depth at this time were correct?

No reasonable person would have thought otherwise..

Hard to argue with that. I doubt anybody thought we have a championship group of arms at our disposal. The rotation seems serviceable to be competitive. But, we need serious long term help. May was a bandaid. The chance to keep him beyond one year is miniscule. If he pitches well, he opts out; if not, we ship him out. Libby is a solid 3. Leahy and Pallante are #5's; performing relatively well I might add. McGreevy may also serve as 3 or 4. But, this is wired together and injuries would blow this whole thing up.