How the heck did Tommy Edman earn 6.2 bWAR?

[Goldfan]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You’re still allowed to look at BA, HR, OBP, Slugging. War doesn’t replace everything.
Just like BA by itself means nothing.
Just like HRs by itself means nothing.

BA is exactly what I said it was>>>>how often a hitter safely hits the ball
HR is AT LEAST one run produced by the hitter. You know exactly what these stats are
Tell me what a 4.3 WAR player does well?

I don’t expect you to understand it since you couldn’t understand the simple sentences I wrote that you just responded to.
What does batting average alone? Tell you about a player? Nothing. He could bet .300 and have zero home runs, zero stolen bases, zero RBIs, and not be able to catch a ball.
What about home runs? What’s 30 home runs tell you? Nothing. He hit 30 home runs. Struck out 250 times. Batted .150

So even your statistics mean nothing by themselves. You can’t judge a player with just those numbers. And when looking at war, you are still allowed to look at the home runs and batting averages. When you go on baseballreference.com, those statistics are listed right next to war. They didn’t delete them. War doesn’t say that you’re not allowed to look at other statistics.

I think we are talking to walls.

What does a 4.3 WAR player do well?
I know what a .320 BA player does well
I know what a 40HR player does well
So again what does a 4.3 WAR player do well? Waiting. And yes you can always view whatever other stats you like……cop out answer

How do you know that those players are any good by looking at ones batting average and one’s home runs? Tell me how you know they’re good?

You mean other than the 140yrs of accepted baseball standards for excellence? I’ll ask you
Is a .320 batter a good hitter?
Is a 40HR batter a power hitter?
Are these serious questions??

[mattmitchl44]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You’re still allowed to look at BA, HR, OBP, Slugging. War doesn’t replace everything.
Just like BA by itself means nothing.
Just like HRs by itself means nothing.

BA is exactly what I said it was>>>>how often a hitter safely hits the ball
HR is AT LEAST one run produced by the hitter. You know exactly what these stats are
Tell me what a 4.3 WAR player does well?

I don’t expect you to understand it since you couldn’t understand the simple sentences I wrote that you just responded to.
What does batting average alone? Tell you about a player? Nothing. He could bet .300 and have zero home runs, zero stolen bases, zero RBIs, and not be able to catch a ball.
What about home runs? What’s 30 home runs tell you? Nothing. He hit 30 home runs. Struck out 250 times. Batted .150

So even your statistics mean nothing by themselves. You can’t judge a player with just those numbers. And when looking at war, you are still allowed to look at the home runs and batting averages. When you go on baseballreference.com, those statistics are listed right next to war. They didn’t delete them. War doesn’t say that you’re not allowed to look at other statistics.

I think we are talking to walls.

What does a 4.3 WAR player do well?
I know what a .320 BA player does well
I know what a 40HR player does well
So again what does a 4.3 WAR player do well? Waiting. And yes you can always view whatever other stats you like……cop out answer

How do you know that those players are any good by looking at ones batting average and one’s home runs? Tell me how you know they’re good?

You mean other than the 140yrs of accepted baseball standards for excellence? I’ll ask you
Is a .320 batter a good hitter?
Is a 40HR batter a power hitter?
Are these serious questions??

Yes, you should look at other stats to understand more about how a particular player generated their 3, 4, 5 WAR.

However, that doesn't mean that WAR is not valuable.

GMs have to answer the question - every year - of how do I spend my available money to add multiple players to make my roster as good as it could be?

If a GM knows they have to add a starting pitcher, starting 2B and starting OF, and they have choices in the FA market of:

- Player A - SP costing $20 million; Player B - 2B costing $18 million; Player C - OF costing $10 million, or
- Player D - SP costing $30 million; Player E - 2B costing $12 million; Player F - OF costing $6 million; or
- Player G - SP costing $10 million; Player H - 2B costing $10 million; Player I - OF costing $28 million;
etc.

WAR gives them a way to evaluate those combinations of players doing very different things to get an idea of how many "wins" each combination would be expected to add to the team.

[ScotchMIrish]

Better question - why does anybody pay attention to these goofy analytics stats like bWAR?

Where do you draw the line on useful or useless as it pertains to analytics?

Do you feel like defense shouldn’t be tracked? Is the assessment of an error just to mean… errr… goofy? Do you not care at all about a player’s base running ability and acumen? Do you not care why a pitcher may be prone to giving up home runs?

Generally curious.

There is more nuance to the game of baseball than can be calculated by these sabermetrics stats. The top bWAR on the 1982 Cardinals:

Keith Hernandez (1B): 6.5
Lonnie Smith (OF): 5.7
Ozzie Smith (SS): 5.0
George Hendrick (OF): 4.0
Darrell Porter (C): 3.5
Tom Herr (2B): 1.7
Willie McGee (OF): 1.6

Joaquín Andújar: 4.5
Bob Forsch: 3.5
Bruce Sutter: 3.3

That's a world series championship team. Which of those players is not better than Edman in 2025?

This seemed like you were making a good point until you go look at the stats of the Cardinals from 1982. Very few HRs. 6 of those players combined for 23 HRs. Low OPS.
People today would not want most of those players today.

No computer model would have the 1982 Cardinals winning the world series and yet they did. Few people today in baseball understand the game like Herzog. That's why sabermetric stuff like bWAR are nonsense unless every manager is a robot and does the same thing.

A manager thinking outside the box like Herzog would win today and run circles around the robots.

[ClassicO]

I think the WAR example of Jazz Chisholm noted above explains why WAR is a good mechanism to provide a quick look at a player’s total value, and allow the dumber people to understand why simple stats like batting average don’t tell the entire picture.

I seldom (never?) see anyone on this board go through the four components I laid out to support Chisholm’s 4.4 WAR:
1. Hitting
2. Defense
3. Base running
4. Positional value

Instead, all I hear is hitting, with an occasional reference to defense. That’s simplistic and frankly just dumb.

Is WAR perfect or exact? Heck no. But it’s a far better estimation of player value than the feeble attempts made by simpletons like Goldfan and Melville.

[mattmitchl44]

I think the WAR example of Jazz Chisholm noted above explains why WAR is a good mechanism to provide a quick look at a player’s total value, and allow the dumber people to understand why simple stats like batting average don’t tell the entire picture.

I seldom (never?) see anyone on this board go through the four components I laid out to support Chisholm’s 4.4 WAR:
1. Hitting
2. Defense
3. Base running
4. Positional value

Instead, all I hear is hitting, with an occasional reference to defense. That’s simplistic and frankly just dumb.

Is WAR perfect or exact? Heck no. But it’s a far better estimation of player value than the feeble attempts made by simpletons like Goldfan and Melville.

IMO, I think there is a tendency for fans who rely on "traditional measures" to overestimate the value of players who do specific things really well:

- a Luis Arraez-like player who hits for a high AVG, but doesn't necessarily hit for power or walk a lot
- a player who hits a lot of HRs, but doesn't hit for AVG or walk a lot
- a pitcher who may have had a low ERA, but didn't to the things (high K/9, low BB/9, low HR/9) that would lead to a low FIP
etc.

I think the players who do about everything above average - Chisholm, Zobrist, Edman back in 2022, etc. - probably get undervalued by the same because there isn't one specific skill that really pops off the page.

[ClassicO]

I think the WAR example of Jazz Chisholm noted above explains why WAR is a good mechanism to provide a quick look at a player’s total value, and allow the dumber people to understand why simple stats like batting average don’t tell the entire picture.

I seldom (never?) see anyone on this board go through the four components I laid out to support Chisholm’s 4.4 WAR:
1. Hitting
2. Defense
3. Base running
4. Positional value

Instead, all I hear is hitting, with an occasional reference to defense. That’s simplistic and frankly just dumb.

Is WAR perfect or exact? Heck no. But it’s a far better estimation of player value than the feeble attempts made by simpletons like Goldfan and Melville.

IMO, I think there is a tendency for fans who rely on "traditional measures" to overestimate the value of players who do specific things really well:

- a Luis Arraez-like player who hits for a high AVG, but doesn't necessarily hit for power or walk a lot
- a player who hits a lot of HRs, but doesn't hit for AVG or walk a lot
- a pitcher who may have had a low ERA, but didn't to the things (high K/9, low BB/9, low HR/9) that would lead to a low FIP
etc.

I think the players who do about everything above average - Chisholm, Zobrist, Edman back in 2022, etc. - probably get undervalued by the same because there isn't one specific skill that really pops off the page.

Agree. Just take a look at the top WAR players/pitchers and teams from 2025 pasted above and it tells a lot.

In 2025, Masyn Winn had the highest Cards fWAR among position players. Burly was #5. Why? Great defense, baserunning and he plays a key position. These are three factors - other than hitting - that win games.

[Goldfan]

I think the WAR example of Jazz Chisholm noted above explains why WAR is a good mechanism to provide a quick look at a player’s total value, and allow the dumber people to understand why simple stats like batting average don’t tell the entire picture.

I seldom (never?) see anyone on this board go through the four components I laid out to support Chisholm’s 4.4 WAR:
1. Hitting
2. Defense
3. Base running
4. Positional value

Instead, all I hear is hitting, with an occasional reference to defense. That’s simplistic and frankly just dumb.

Is WAR perfect or exact? Heck no. But it’s a far better estimation of player value than the feeble attempts made by simpletons like Goldfan and Melville.

So we’re too stupid to understand WAR…..but when I ask to explain what solely viewing 4.4 WAR tells me……You’re required to list all the other standard stats to accomplish this.
If I have to look at all the standard stats to understand what 4.4 WAR represents….why don’t I just look at the standard stats??
Yes too stupid for WAR

[WaltsSuccessor]

I think everyone pretty much agrees that defense remains the hardest component of productivity to value in a WAR methodology.

However, defensive value IS real and needs to be accounted for. If someone has a better way of valuing EVERY PLAY made by EVERY PLAYER than DRS, UZR/150, OAA, FRV, etc., we'd all like to hear it.

I hear ya Matt, so why not just stop using WAR as some kind of fact based stat. It’s not….it’s flawed…..and yet its thrown out there right along with BA, OBP, OPS, ERA, WHIP

Literally all those other stats have flaws too...

Really? Over the course of a full season, what flaw is there in BA? Give me 5 guys on the same team who hit .290+ over 150 games in a season and you'll have a good team. It's a factual stat, that has no debate.

Likewise ERA. If your team ERA is in the low 3s, youre going to win more than you lose. How is it flawed?

WAR on the other hand? Let's imagine how many wins this player results in vs if he didnt play. How is that even quantified without knowing what the "replacement " player did?

Seriously? Batting average treats all hits as equal. A single counts the same as a home run in batting average. A .290 pure singles hitter is no where near as valuable as a well rounded slugger (like vintage Pujols) who hits .290.

ERA is literally EARNED run average. A run being deemed earned is completely subjective on the official scoring on errors. Plus, a pitcher with a better defense behind them will be default have a lower ERA than a pitcher on another team with a (bleep) defense (all else being equal).

You arguing ERA isn't flawed is mind blogging.

Batting Avg>>>>hits/ab’s. Very simple equation. You now exactly how often a players hits the ball safely.
WAR>>>Start with fantasy AAA player baseline>>>>adjust for position>>>>adjust for Park>>>>compare against all other at position>>>gives you a 2 digit number with decimal>>>
So by viewing that number how do you know if the player has Power, hits for avg, great on D, runs bases well??? It doesn’t tell you anything. You need to go back to the basic stats for any detail

1. Hits/ABs - where hits are subjectively determined by the official scorer on whether the fielder should have converted into an out or not.
2. Everything you said about WAR was correct. However, it doesn't make the point you think you're making. WAR is like any other stat. It should be used in conjunction with other stats. Just like BA, OBP, SB, Errors, etc. by themselves in a vacuum doesn't tell you the whole story on a player.

Yes it's meant to take everything and boil it down to one number of value. And it does a reasonably good job. If you want to argue it overrates defense, that's fine. I agree with you. But overall, it pretty accurately reflects/differentiates who is replacement level (< 1), solid regular (1.5-3), all star level (4-5), and superstar (6+). Which is it's goal.

Yeah you can find some oddball outliers like a Tommy Edman or Jason Heyward every now and then. But it's not coincidence that the year end WAR leaders also dominate the MVP and CY leaderboards.

[An Old Friend]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You could have a team of Luis Arraezes, all with impressive .290-.300 batting averages, that would be considerably worse.

Incidentally, in the seasons in question, Heyward had a 121/117 wRC+/OPS+ while Edman logged 106/107—they were both above-league-average hitters (while playing elite defense), belying your claim that said hypothetical team “wouldn’t hit or score.”

‘22
Edman 2b/SS
.265, .324, .725, 13HR, 57RBI
‘15
Heyward RF
.293, .359, .797, 13HR, 60RBI

You think a team full of sub.800 13HR,55-60RBI hitters are going rationalize/equalize to a 62WAR starting lineup?

Those WS winning 82 Cardinals had only 2 guys that cracked .800 OPS.
Edmads 13 HR would have ranked 2nd on the 1982 Cardinals. How did the Cardinals win the World Series win Tommy Edmunds would’ve been second on the team and home runs? They didn’t have a 20 home run hitter.

Different era, but just a couple differences
Hendrick 104 RBI
Hernandez 94RBI
L. Smith .307, .381, 69RBI, 120R at leadoff 68SB

Yawn. Different era? You are the one that used the 82 Cardinals as an example.

Great call out!

[Cardinals1964]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You’re still allowed to look at BA, HR, OBP, Slugging. War doesn’t replace everything.
Just like BA by itself means nothing.
Just like HRs by itself means nothing.

BA is exactly what I said it was>>>>how often a hitter safely hits the ball
HR is AT LEAST one run produced by the hitter. You know exactly what these stats are
Tell me what a 4.3 WAR player does well?

I don’t expect you to understand it since you couldn’t understand the simple sentences I wrote that you just responded to.
What does batting average alone? Tell you about a player? Nothing. He could bet .300 and have zero home runs, zero stolen bases, zero RBIs, and not be able to catch a ball.
What about home runs? What’s 30 home runs tell you? Nothing. He hit 30 home runs. Struck out 250 times. Batted .150

So even your statistics mean nothing by themselves. You can’t judge a player with just those numbers. And when looking at war, you are still allowed to look at the home runs and batting averages. When you go on baseballreference.com, those statistics are listed right next to war. They didn’t delete them. War doesn’t say that you’re not allowed to look at other statistics.

I think we are talking to walls.

What does a 4.3 WAR player do well?
I know what a .320 BA player does well
I know what a 40HR player does well
So again what does a 4.3 WAR player do well? Waiting. And yes you can always view whatever other stats you like……cop out answer

How do you know that those players are any good by looking at ones batting average and one’s home runs? Tell me how you know they’re good?

You mean other than the 140yrs of accepted baseball standards for excellence? I’ll ask you
Is a .320 batter a good hitter?
Is a 40HR batter a power hitter?
Are these serious questions??

Not enough information.
If player A hit 40 home runs and player B hit 40 home runs are they the same skill rating? No they’re not. Do you just not want to give up your argument or are you too dense to understand it?
A .325 hitter without walks or power isn’t really that great of a player. Especially if he can’t catch the ball.

[Goldfan]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You could have a team of Luis Arraezes, all with impressive .290-.300 batting averages, that would be considerably worse.

Incidentally, in the seasons in question, Heyward had a 121/117 wRC+/OPS+ while Edman logged 106/107—they were both above-league-average hitters (while playing elite defense), belying your claim that said hypothetical team “wouldn’t hit or score.”

‘22
Edman 2b/SS
.265, .324, .725, 13HR, 57RBI
‘15
Heyward RF
.293, .359, .797, 13HR, 60RBI

You think a team full of sub.800 13HR,55-60RBI hitters are going rationalize/equalize to a 62WAR starting lineup?

Those WS winning 82 Cardinals had only 2 guys that cracked .800 OPS.
Edmads 13 HR would have ranked 2nd on the 1982 Cardinals. How did the Cardinals win the World Series win Tommy Edmunds would’ve been second on the team and home runs? They didn’t have a 20 home run hitter.

Different era, but just a couple differences
Hendrick 104 RBI
Hernandez 94RBI
L. Smith .307, .381, 69RBI, 120R at leadoff 68SB

Yawn. Different era? You are the one that used the 82 Cardinals as an example.

Great call out!

Wasn’t me….figure out who you were arguing with

[Cardinals1964]

Better question - why does anybody pay attention to these goofy analytics stats like bWAR?

Where do you draw the line on useful or useless as it pertains to analytics?

Do you feel like defense shouldn’t be tracked? Is the assessment of an error just to mean… errr… goofy? Do you not care at all about a player’s base running ability and acumen? Do you not care why a pitcher may be prone to giving up home runs?

Generally curious.

There is more nuance to the game of baseball than can be calculated by these sabermetrics stats. The top bWAR on the 1982 Cardinals:

Keith Hernandez (1B): 6.5
Lonnie Smith (OF): 5.7
Ozzie Smith (SS): 5.0
George Hendrick (OF): 4.0
Darrell Porter (C): 3.5
Tom Herr (2B): 1.7
Willie McGee (OF): 1.6

Joaquín Andújar: 4.5
Bob Forsch: 3.5
Bruce Sutter: 3.3

That's a world series championship team. Which of those players is not better than Edman in 2025?

This seemed like you were making a good point until you go look at the stats of the Cardinals from 1982. Very few HRs. 6 of those players combined for 23 HRs. Low OPS.
People today would not want most of those players today.

No computer model would have the 1982 Cardinals winning the world series and yet they did. Few people today in baseball understand the game like Herzog. That's why sabermetric stuff like bWAR are nonsense unless every manager is a robot and does the same thing.

A manager thinking outside the box like Herzog would win today and run circles around the robots.

But if you add up the 82 cardinal war it comes out to be very close to how many games they actually won.
And Herzog got fired.

[Goldfan]

Better question - why does anybody pay attention to these goofy analytics stats like bWAR?

Where do you draw the line on useful or useless as it pertains to analytics?

Do you feel like defense shouldn’t be tracked? Is the assessment of an error just to mean… errr… goofy? Do you not care at all about a player’s base running ability and acumen? Do you not care why a pitcher may be prone to giving up home runs?

Generally curious.

There is more nuance to the game of baseball than can be calculated by these sabermetrics stats. The top bWAR on the 1982 Cardinals:

Keith Hernandez (1B): 6.5
Lonnie Smith (OF): 5.7
Ozzie Smith (SS): 5.0
George Hendrick (OF): 4.0
Darrell Porter (C): 3.5
Tom Herr (2B): 1.7
Willie McGee (OF): 1.6

Joaquín Andújar: 4.5
Bob Forsch: 3.5
Bruce Sutter: 3.3

That's a world series championship team. Which of those players is not better than Edman in 2025?

This seemed like you were making a good point until you go look at the stats of the Cardinals from 1982. Very few HRs. 6 of those players combined for 23 HRs. Low OPS.
People today would not want most of those players today.

No computer model would have the 1982 Cardinals winning the world series and yet they did. Few people today in baseball understand the game like Herzog. That's why sabermetric stuff like bWAR are nonsense unless every manager is a robot and does the same thing.

A manager thinking outside the box like Herzog would win today and run circles around the robots.

But if you add up the 82 cardinal war it comes out to be very close to how many games they actually won.
And Herzog got fired.

And the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor…..

[Goldfan]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You’re still allowed to look at BA, HR, OBP, Slugging. War doesn’t replace everything.
Just like BA by itself means nothing.
Just like HRs by itself means nothing.

BA is exactly what I said it was>>>>how often a hitter safely hits the ball
HR is AT LEAST one run produced by the hitter. You know exactly what these stats are
Tell me what a 4.3 WAR player does well?

I don’t expect you to understand it since you couldn’t understand the simple sentences I wrote that you just responded to.
What does batting average alone? Tell you about a player? Nothing. He could bet .300 and have zero home runs, zero stolen bases, zero RBIs, and not be able to catch a ball.
What about home runs? What’s 30 home runs tell you? Nothing. He hit 30 home runs. Struck out 250 times. Batted .150

So even your statistics mean nothing by themselves. You can’t judge a player with just those numbers. And when looking at war, you are still allowed to look at the home runs and batting averages. When you go on baseballreference.com, those statistics are listed right next to war. They didn’t delete them. War doesn’t say that you’re not allowed to look at other statistics.

I think we are talking to walls.

What does a 4.3 WAR player do well?
I know what a .320 BA player does well
I know what a 40HR player does well
So again what does a 4.3 WAR player do well? Waiting. And yes you can always view whatever other stats you like……cop out answer

How do you know that those players are any good by looking at ones batting average and one’s home runs? Tell me how you know they’re good?

You mean other than the 140yrs of accepted baseball standards for excellence? I’ll ask you
Is a .320 batter a good hitter?
Is a 40HR batter a power hitter?
Are these serious questions??

Not enough information.
If player A hit 40 home runs and player B hit 40 home runs are they the same skill rating? No they’re not. Do you just not want to give up your argument or are you too dense to understand it?
A .325 hitter without walks or power isn’t really that great of a player. Especially if he can’t catch the ball.

Viewing a BA tells me nothing about whether a player can catch…..as viewing 4.3WAR tells me nothing about whether the player can catch
But I do know whether the player can hit or not viewing BA
Tell me exactly what information you’re gleaning from seeing 4.3WAR……

[Goldfan]

I think everyone pretty much agrees that defense remains the hardest component of productivity to value in a WAR methodology.

However, defensive value IS real and needs to be accounted for. If someone has a better way of valuing EVERY PLAY made by EVERY PLAYER than DRS, UZR/150, OAA, FRV, etc., we'd all like to hear it.

I hear ya Matt, so why not just stop using WAR as some kind of fact based stat. It’s not….it’s flawed…..and yet its thrown out there right along with BA, OBP, OPS, ERA, WHIP

Literally all those other stats have flaws too...

Really? Over the course of a full season, what flaw is there in BA? Give me 5 guys on the same team who hit .290+ over 150 games in a season and you'll have a good team. It's a factual stat, that has no debate.

Likewise ERA. If your team ERA is in the low 3s, youre going to win more than you lose. How is it flawed?

WAR on the other hand? Let's imagine how many wins this player results in vs if he didnt play. How is that even quantified without knowing what the "replacement " player did?

Seriously? Batting average treats all hits as equal. A single counts the same as a home run in batting average. A .290 pure singles hitter is no where near as valuable as a well rounded slugger (like vintage Pujols) who hits .290.

ERA is literally EARNED run average. A run being deemed earned is completely subjective on the official scoring on errors. Plus, a pitcher with a better defense behind them will be default have a lower ERA than a pitcher on another team with a (bleep) defense (all else being equal).

You arguing ERA isn't flawed is mind blogging.

Batting Avg>>>>hits/ab’s. Very simple equation. You now exactly how often a players hits the ball safely.
WAR>>>Start with fantasy AAA player baseline>>>>adjust for position>>>>adjust for Park>>>>compare against all other at position>>>gives you a 2 digit number with decimal>>>
So by viewing that number how do you know if the player has Power, hits for avg, great on D, runs bases well??? It doesn’t tell you anything. You need to go back to the basic stats for any detail

1. Hits/ABs - where hits are subjectively determined by the official scorer on whether the fielder should have converted into an out or not.
2. Everything you said about WAR was correct. However, it doesn't make the point you think you're making. WAR is like any other stat. It should be used in conjunction with other stats. Just like BA, OBP, SB, Errors, etc. by themselves in a vacuum doesn't tell you the whole story on a player.

Yes it's meant to take everything and boil it down to one number of value. And it does a reasonably good job. If you want to argue it overrates defense, that's fine. I agree with you. But overall, it pretty accurately reflects/differentiates who is replacement level (< 1), solid regular (1.5-3), all star level (4-5), and superstar (6+). Which is it's goal.

Yeah you can find some oddball outliers like a Tommy Edman or Jason Heyward every now and then. But it's not coincidence that the year end WAR leaders also dominate the MVP and CY leaderboards.

How many player hits are determined by the official scorer over the course of the season. And those that are fall under MLB rules
Point out the MLB rule to determine Fantasy AAA player used as the baseline……MLB rule for positional adjustment….etc
And as I’ve stated many times in this thread you need to look at the standard stats anyway to figure out what the WAR# represents…..so why not just begin there?

[mattmitchl44]

I think everyone pretty much agrees that defense remains the hardest component of productivity to value in a WAR methodology.

However, defensive value IS real and needs to be accounted for. If someone has a better way of valuing EVERY PLAY made by EVERY PLAYER than DRS, UZR/150, OAA, FRV, etc., we'd all like to hear it.

I hear ya Matt, so why not just stop using WAR as some kind of fact based stat. It’s not….it’s flawed…..and yet its thrown out there right along with BA, OBP, OPS, ERA, WHIP

Literally all those other stats have flaws too...

Really? Over the course of a full season, what flaw is there in BA? Give me 5 guys on the same team who hit .290+ over 150 games in a season and you'll have a good team. It's a factual stat, that has no debate.

Likewise ERA. If your team ERA is in the low 3s, youre going to win more than you lose. How is it flawed?

WAR on the other hand? Let's imagine how many wins this player results in vs if he didnt play. How is that even quantified without knowing what the "replacement " player did?

Seriously? Batting average treats all hits as equal. A single counts the same as a home run in batting average. A .290 pure singles hitter is no where near as valuable as a well rounded slugger (like vintage Pujols) who hits .290.

ERA is literally EARNED run average. A run being deemed earned is completely subjective on the official scoring on errors. Plus, a pitcher with a better defense behind them will be default have a lower ERA than a pitcher on another team with a (bleep) defense (all else being equal).

You arguing ERA isn't flawed is mind blogging.

Batting Avg>>>>hits/ab’s. Very simple equation. You now exactly how often a players hits the ball safely.
WAR>>>Start with fantasy AAA player baseline>>>>adjust for position>>>>adjust for Park>>>>compare against all other at position>>>gives you a 2 digit number with decimal>>>
So by viewing that number how do you know if the player has Power, hits for avg, great on D, runs bases well??? It doesn’t tell you anything. You need to go back to the basic stats for any detail

1. Hits/ABs - where hits are subjectively determined by the official scorer on whether the fielder should have converted into an out or not.
2. Everything you said about WAR was correct. However, it doesn't make the point you think you're making. WAR is like any other stat. It should be used in conjunction with other stats. Just like BA, OBP, SB, Errors, etc. by themselves in a vacuum doesn't tell you the whole story on a player.

Yes it's meant to take everything and boil it down to one number of value. And it does a reasonably good job. If you want to argue it overrates defense, that's fine. I agree with you. But overall, it pretty accurately reflects/differentiates who is replacement level (< 1), solid regular (1.5-3), all star level (4-5), and superstar (6+). Which is it's goal.

Yeah you can find some oddball outliers like a Tommy Edman or Jason Heyward every now and then. But it's not coincidence that the year end WAR leaders also dominate the MVP and CY leaderboards.

How many player hits are determined by the official scorer over the course of the season. And those that are fall under MLB rules
Point out the MLB rule to determine Fantasy AAA player used as the baseline……MLB rule for positional adjustment….etc
And as I’ve stated many times in this thread you need to look at the standard stats anyway to figure out what the WAR# represents…..so why not just begin there?

You can begin, end, or stop off in the middle wherever you want - no one is arguing against looking at more reliable information. But WAR values are part of that reliable information, along with all of the stats you prefer.

I've noted before - WAR is a GM-level statistic, a useful summary of how many more "wins" a player might bring if acquired, and therefore how much money the GM might want to offer to spend on that player.

But WAR isn't going to tell a manager how to use a particular player - what position they should play, where they should hit in the order, etc. The manager has to look at other information to decide that.