How the heck did Tommy Edman earn 6.2 bWAR?

[Cardinals1964]

I think everyone pretty much agrees that defense remains the hardest component of productivity to value in a WAR methodology.

However, defensive value IS real and needs to be accounted for. If someone has a better way of valuing EVERY PLAY made by EVERY PLAYER than DRS, UZR/150, OAA, FRV, etc., we'd all like to hear it.

I hear ya Matt, so why not just stop using WAR as some kind of fact based stat. It’s not….it’s flawed…..and yet its thrown out there right along with BA, OBP, OPS, ERA, WHIP

Literally all those other stats have flaws too...

Really? Over the course of a full season, what flaw is there in BA? Give me 5 guys on the same team who hit .290+ over 150 games in a season and you'll have a good team. It's a factual stat, that has no debate.

Likewise ERA. If your team ERA is in the low 3s, youre going to win more than you lose. How is it flawed?

WAR on the other hand? Let's imagine how many wins this player results in vs if he didnt play. How is that even quantified without knowing what the "replacement " player did?

Seriously? Batting average treats all hits as equal. A single counts the same as a home run in batting average. A .290 pure singles hitter is no where near as valuable as a well rounded slugger (like vintage Pujols) who hits .290.

ERA is literally EARNED run average. A run being deemed earned is completely subjective on the official scoring on errors. Plus, a pitcher with a better defense behind them will be default have a lower ERA than a pitcher on another team with a (bleep) defense (all else being equal).

You arguing ERA isn't flawed is mind blogging.

Batting Avg>>>>hits/ab’s. Very simple equation. You now exactly how often a players hits the ball safely.
WAR>>>Start with fantasy AAA player baseline>>>>adjust for position>>>>adjust for Park>>>>compare against all other at position>>>gives you a 2 digit number with decimal>>>
So by viewing that number how do you know if the player has Power, hits for avg, great on D, runs bases well??? It doesn’t tell you anything. You need to go back to the basic stats for any detail

Lmao. Funny.

[Goldfan]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

[Cardinals1964]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You’re still allowed to look at BA, HR, OBP, Slugging. War doesn’t replace everything.
Just like BA by itself means nothing.
Just like HRs by itself means nothing.

[NYCardsFan]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You could have a team of Luis Arraezes, all with impressive .290-.300 batting averages, that would be considerably worse.

Incidentally, in the seasons in question, Heyward had a 121/117 wRC+/OPS+ while Edman logged 106/107—they were both above-league-average hitters (while playing elite defense), belying your claim that said hypothetical team “wouldn’t hit or score.”

[Goldfan]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You’re still allowed to look at BA, HR, OBP, Slugging. War doesn’t replace everything.
Just like BA by itself means nothing.
Just like HRs by itself means nothing.

BA is exactly what I said it was>>>>how often a hitter safely hits the ball
HR is AT LEAST one run produced by the hitter. You know exactly what these stats are
Tell me what a 4.3 WAR player does well?

[Cardinals1964]

Better question - why does anybody pay attention to these goofy analytics stats like bWAR?

Where do you draw the line on useful or useless as it pertains to analytics?

Do you feel like defense shouldn’t be tracked? Is the assessment of an error just to mean… errr… goofy? Do you not care at all about a player’s base running ability and acumen? Do you not care why a pitcher may be prone to giving up home runs?

Generally curious.

There is more nuance to the game of baseball than can be calculated by these sabermetrics stats. The top bWAR on the 1982 Cardinals:

Keith Hernandez (1B): 6.5
Lonnie Smith (OF): 5.7
Ozzie Smith (SS): 5.0
George Hendrick (OF): 4.0
Darrell Porter (C): 3.5
Tom Herr (2B): 1.7
Willie McGee (OF): 1.6

Joaquín Andújar: 4.5
Bob Forsch: 3.5
Bruce Sutter: 3.3

That's a world series championship team. Which of those players is not better than Edman in 2025?

This seemed like you were making a good point until you go look at the stats of the Cardinals from 1982. Very few HRs. 6 of those players combined for 23 HRs. Low OPS.
People today would not want most of those players today.

[Goldfan]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You could have a team of Luis Arraezes, all with impressive .290-.300 batting averages, that would be considerably worse.

Incidentally, in the seasons in question, Heyward had a 121/117 wRC+/OPS+ while Edman logged 106/107—they were both above-league-average hitters (while playing elite defense), belying your claim that said hypothetical team “wouldn’t hit or score.”

‘22
Edman 2b/SS
.265, .324, .725, 13HR, 57RBI
‘15
Heyward RF
.293, .359, .797, 13HR, 60RBI

You think a team full of sub.800 13HR,55-60RBI hitters are going rationalize/equalize to a 62WAR starting lineup?

[Cardinals1964]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You’re still allowed to look at BA, HR, OBP, Slugging. War doesn’t replace everything.
Just like BA by itself means nothing.
Just like HRs by itself means nothing.

BA is exactly what I said it was>>>>how often a hitter safely hits the ball
HR is AT LEAST one run produced by the hitter. You know exactly what these stats are
Tell me what a 4.3 WAR player does well?

I don’t expect you to understand it since you couldn’t understand the simple sentences I wrote that you just responded to.
What does batting average alone? Tell you about a player? Nothing. He could bet .300 and have zero home runs, zero stolen bases, zero RBIs, and not be able to catch a ball.
What about home runs? What’s 30 home runs tell you? Nothing. He hit 30 home runs. Struck out 250 times. Batted .150

So even your statistics mean nothing by themselves. You can’t judge a player with just those numbers. And when looking at war, you are still allowed to look at the home runs and batting averages. When you go on baseballreference.com, those statistics are listed right next to war. They didn’t delete them. War doesn’t say that you’re not allowed to look at other statistics.

[Cardinals1964]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You could have a team of Luis Arraezes, all with impressive .290-.300 batting averages, that would be considerably worse.

Incidentally, in the seasons in question, Heyward had a 121/117 wRC+/OPS+ while Edman logged 106/107—they were both above-league-average hitters (while playing elite defense), belying your claim that said hypothetical team “wouldn’t hit or score.”

‘22
Edman 2b/SS
.265, .324, .725, 13HR, 57RBI
‘15
Heyward RF
.293, .359, .797, 13HR, 60RBI

You think a team full of sub.800 13HR,55-60RBI hitters are going rationalize/equalize to a 62WAR starting lineup?

Those WS winning 82 Cardinals had only 2 guys that cracked .800 OPS.
Edmads 13 HR would have ranked 2nd on the 1982 Cardinals. How did the Cardinals win the World Series win Tommy Edmunds would’ve been second on the team and home runs? They didn’t have a 20 home run hitter.

[ClassicO]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You’re still allowed to look at BA, HR, OBP, Slugging. War doesn’t replace everything.
Just like BA by itself means nothing.
Just like HRs by itself means nothing.

BA is exactly what I said it was>>>>how often a hitter safely hits the ball
HR is AT LEAST one run produced by the hitter. You know exactly what these stats are
Tell me what a 4.3 WAR player does well?

I don’t expect you to understand it since you couldn’t understand the simple sentences I wrote that you just responded to.
What does batting average alone? Tell you about a player? Nothing. He could bet .300 and have zero home runs, zero stolen bases, zero RBIs, and not be able to catch a ball.
What about home runs? What’s 30 home runs tell you? Nothing. He hit 30 home runs. Struck out 250 times. Batted .150

So even your statistics mean nothing by themselves. You can’t judge a player with just those numbers. And when looking at war, you are still allowed to look at the home runs and batting averages. When you go on baseballreference.com, those statistics are listed right next to war. They didn’t delete them. War doesn’t say that you’re not allowed to look at other statistics.

I think we are talking to walls.

[Goldfan]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You could have a team of Luis Arraezes, all with impressive .290-.300 batting averages, that would be considerably worse.

Incidentally, in the seasons in question, Heyward had a 121/117 wRC+/OPS+ while Edman logged 106/107—they were both above-league-average hitters (while playing elite defense), belying your claim that said hypothetical team “wouldn’t hit or score.”

‘22
Edman 2b/SS
.265, .324, .725, 13HR, 57RBI
‘15
Heyward RF
.293, .359, .797, 13HR, 60RBI

You think a team full of sub.800 13HR,55-60RBI hitters are going rationalize/equalize to a 62WAR starting lineup?

Those WS winning 82 Cardinals had only 2 guys that cracked .800 OPS.
Edmads 13 HR would have ranked 2nd on the 1982 Cardinals. How did the Cardinals win the World Series win Tommy Edmunds would’ve been second on the team and home runs? They didn’t have a 20 home run hitter.

Different era, but just a couple differences
Hendrick 104 RBI
Hernandez 94RBI
L. Smith .307, .381, 69RBI, 120R at leadoff 68SB

[Cardinals1964]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You could have a team of Luis Arraezes, all with impressive .290-.300 batting averages, that would be considerably worse.

Incidentally, in the seasons in question, Heyward had a 121/117 wRC+/OPS+ while Edman logged 106/107—they were both above-league-average hitters (while playing elite defense), belying your claim that said hypothetical team “wouldn’t hit or score.”

‘22
Edman 2b/SS
.265, .324, .725, 13HR, 57RBI
‘15
Heyward RF
.293, .359, .797, 13HR, 60RBI

You think a team full of sub.800 13HR,55-60RBI hitters are going rationalize/equalize to a 62WAR starting lineup?

Those WS winning 82 Cardinals had only 2 guys that cracked .800 OPS.
Edmads 13 HR would have ranked 2nd on the 1982 Cardinals. How did the Cardinals win the World Series win Tommy Edmunds would’ve been second on the team and home runs? They didn’t have a 20 home run hitter.

Different era, but just a couple differences
Hendrick 104 RBI
Hernandez 94RBI
L. Smith .307, .381, 69RBI, 120R at leadoff 68SB

Yawn. Different era? You are the one that used the 82 Cardinals as an example.

[Goldfan]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You’re still allowed to look at BA, HR, OBP, Slugging. War doesn’t replace everything.
Just like BA by itself means nothing.
Just like HRs by itself means nothing.

BA is exactly what I said it was>>>>how often a hitter safely hits the ball
HR is AT LEAST one run produced by the hitter. You know exactly what these stats are
Tell me what a 4.3 WAR player does well?

I don’t expect you to understand it since you couldn’t understand the simple sentences I wrote that you just responded to.
What does batting average alone? Tell you about a player? Nothing. He could bet .300 and have zero home runs, zero stolen bases, zero RBIs, and not be able to catch a ball.
What about home runs? What’s 30 home runs tell you? Nothing. He hit 30 home runs. Struck out 250 times. Batted .150

So even your statistics mean nothing by themselves. You can’t judge a player with just those numbers. And when looking at war, you are still allowed to look at the home runs and batting averages. When you go on baseballreference.com, those statistics are listed right next to war. They didn’t delete them. War doesn’t say that you’re not allowed to look at other statistics.

I think we are talking to walls.

What does a 4.3 WAR player do well?
I know what a .320 BA player does well
I know what a 40HR player does well
So again what does a 4.3 WAR player do well? Waiting. And yes you can always view whatever other stats you like……cop out answer

[Cardinals1964]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You’re still allowed to look at BA, HR, OBP, Slugging. War doesn’t replace everything.
Just like BA by itself means nothing.
Just like HRs by itself means nothing.

BA is exactly what I said it was>>>>how often a hitter safely hits the ball
HR is AT LEAST one run produced by the hitter. You know exactly what these stats are
Tell me what a 4.3 WAR player does well?

I don’t expect you to understand it since you couldn’t understand the simple sentences I wrote that you just responded to.
What does batting average alone? Tell you about a player? Nothing. He could bet .300 and have zero home runs, zero stolen bases, zero RBIs, and not be able to catch a ball.
What about home runs? What’s 30 home runs tell you? Nothing. He hit 30 home runs. Struck out 250 times. Batted .150

So even your statistics mean nothing by themselves. You can’t judge a player with just those numbers. And when looking at war, you are still allowed to look at the home runs and batting averages. When you go on baseballreference.com, those statistics are listed right next to war. They didn’t delete them. War doesn’t say that you’re not allowed to look at other statistics.

I think we are talking to walls.

What does a 4.3 WAR player do well?
I know what a .320 BA player does well
I know what a 40HR player does well
So again what does a 4.3 WAR player do well? Waiting. And yes you can always view whatever other stats you like……cop out answer

How do you know that those players are any good by looking at ones batting average and one’s home runs? Tell me how you know they’re good?

[ClassicO]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You’re still allowed to look at BA, HR, OBP, Slugging. War doesn’t replace everything.
Just like BA by itself means nothing.
Just like HRs by itself means nothing.

BA is exactly what I said it was>>>>how often a hitter safely hits the ball
HR is AT LEAST one run produced by the hitter. You know exactly what these stats are
Tell me what a 4.3 WAR player does well?

I don’t expect you to understand it since you couldn’t understand the simple sentences I wrote that you just responded to.
What does batting average alone? Tell you about a player? Nothing. He could bet .300 and have zero home runs, zero stolen bases, zero RBIs, and not be able to catch a ball.
What about home runs? What’s 30 home runs tell you? Nothing. He hit 30 home runs. Struck out 250 times. Batted .150

So even your statistics mean nothing by themselves. You can’t judge a player with just those numbers. And when looking at war, you are still allowed to look at the home runs and batting averages. When you go on baseballreference.com, those statistics are listed right next to war. They didn’t delete them. War doesn’t say that you’re not allowed to look at other statistics.

I think we are talking to walls.

What does a 4.3 WAR player do well?
I know what a .320 BA player does well
I know what a 40HR player does well
So again what does a 4.3 WAR player do well? Waiting. And yes you can always view whatever other stats you like……cop out answer

Talking to a wall. You fail to understand basic information and have one goal in life - to complain/whine. But, in answer to your stupid question that you could use AI to inform you on:
Jazz Chisholm Jr., fWAR - 4.4 in 2025.
Offense - 31 HR, 75 runs, 80 RBI with a 126 wRC+ and a slash of .242/.332/.481/.813
Defense - he had a +2 DRS and +8 OAA, so he's good, not great
Baserunning - he has a positive baserunning score and stole 31 bases
Positional value - 2b = a valuable position (which anyone who has played baseball or understands it understands is important and, therefore, he gets a positive 1.9 "positional" adjustment)

A test:
Would you rather have Jazz Chisholm or a guy who hits 40 HRs but is a DH and a horrible base runner?
Would you rather have Jazz Chisholm or a guy who hits .320 but is a DH and a horrible base runner? And by the way, batting average tells you one thing about the player's total value. One. Thing. Is it important? Yes. Does it give you a full picture of his value (let's say he never walks and hits 5 HR with 45 RBI)? No.

[Goldfan]

You could have a team of Edman/Heyward 6-7 WAR players ……probably have the highest TEAM WAR of alltime and the team wouldn’t hit or score.

You’re still allowed to look at BA, HR, OBP, Slugging. War doesn’t replace everything.
Just like BA by itself means nothing.
Just like HRs by itself means nothing.

BA is exactly what I said it was>>>>how often a hitter safely hits the ball
HR is AT LEAST one run produced by the hitter. You know exactly what these stats are
Tell me what a 4.3 WAR player does well?

I don’t expect you to understand it since you couldn’t understand the simple sentences I wrote that you just responded to.
What does batting average alone? Tell you about a player? Nothing. He could bet .300 and have zero home runs, zero stolen bases, zero RBIs, and not be able to catch a ball.
What about home runs? What’s 30 home runs tell you? Nothing. He hit 30 home runs. Struck out 250 times. Batted .150

So even your statistics mean nothing by themselves. You can’t judge a player with just those numbers. And when looking at war, you are still allowed to look at the home runs and batting averages. When you go on baseballreference.com, those statistics are listed right next to war. They didn’t delete them. War doesn’t say that you’re not allowed to look at other statistics.

I think we are talking to walls.

What does a 4.3 WAR player do well?
I know what a .320 BA player does well
I know what a 40HR player does well
So again what does a 4.3 WAR player do well? Waiting. And yes you can always view whatever other stats you like……cop out answer

Talking to a wall. You fail to understand basic information and have one goal in life - to complain/whine. But, in answer to your stupid question that you could use AI to inform you on:
Jazz Chisholm Jr., fWAR - 4.4 in 2025.
Offense - 31 HR, 75 runs, 80 RBI with a 126 wRC+ and a slash of .242/.332/.481/.813
Defense - he had a +2 DRS and +8 OAA, so he's good, not great
Baserunning - he has a positive baserunning score and stole 31 bases
Positional value - 2b = a valuable position (which anyone who has played baseball or understands it understands is important and, therefore, he gets a positive 1.9 "positional" adjustment)

A test:
Would you rather have Jazz Chisholm or a guy who hits 40 HRs but is a DH and a horrible base runner?
Would you rather have Jazz Chisholm or a guy who hits .320 but is a DH and a horrible base runner? And by the way, batting average tells you one thing about the player's total value. One. Thing. Is it important? Yes. Does it give you a full picture of his value (let's say he never walks and hits 5 HR with 45 RBI)? No.

Thanks Classic…..using long accepted standard and quite exact and explanatory baseball stats you answered my question what 4.3WAR represents …..for one player. I should just ask you these questions and you answer to definitely prove my point. If you have to look up his on field stats to explain what 4.3 means…..whats the point??