How the heck did Tommy Edman earn 6.2 bWAR?

[Carp4Cy]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Do you think Ozzie’s defense and baserunning were overrated, too?

Ozzie won GGs year after year. He would have won Plat Gloves if they existed then. No one in their right mind is comparing Edman to The Wizard.

[Carp4Cy]

Having watched most of the 2022 and 2015 seasons, I can say confidently without knowing whatever WAR they were assigned that Edman and Heyward were among the most valuable players on those teams - largely due to their defense. I am not really sure what point the OP is trying to make here. If you watched the games, you could see they made a significant impact defensively. It would be more discussion worthy if they advanced analytics didn't reflect that.

I am no WAR disciple but I also can't argue against WAR assigning high value to Edman in 2022 and Heyward in 2015. They were also both excellent baserunners and both ended up with around 50 XBH. Combine that with elite defense, and the WAR should reflect that of an elite All Star caliber player.

We won 93 games that year because of Goldy and Nado (and Pujols in the 2nd half). Edman contributed but he wasn’t a. Needle mover at the same level as those other 2, who did win GGs and or MVPs.

[An Old Friend]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Do you think Ozzie’s defense and baserunning were overrated, too?

Ozzie won GGs year after year. He would have won Plat Gloves if they existed then. No one in their right mind is comparing Edman to The Wizard.

So you DO see value in defense and baserunning, then.

Thanks.

I don’t see you asking how the heck Ozzie had 5.1 bWAR when he hit .230 with an OBP of .313, 0 HR, 35 RBI, and a 71 OPS+

[Melville]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Probably because WAR is made up and is essentially pointless.

Absolutely.
Nothing but a short cut parlor game, which only those who do not understand the game place any credence in.
Smart people know better.

[hmoss859]

WAR captures the total player

Offense, defense and baserunning

The better you all at ALL three the better overall player

[ClassicO]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Probably because WAR is made up and is essentially pointless.

Absolutely.
Nothing but a short cut parlor game, which only those who do not understand the game place any credence in.
Smart people know better.

Do you even know how either fWAR or bWAR is calculated?
If so, explain how it’s a parlor game.
And for the 100th time, what is your best measure for a player’s overall value? RBIs! Ha ha ha
You have no clue

[ClassicO]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Probably because WAR is made up and is essentially pointless.

Absolutely.
Nothing but a short cut parlor game, which only those who do not understand the game place any credence in.
Smart people know better.

Do you even know how either fWAR or bWAR is calculated?
If so, explain how it’s a parlor game.
And for the umpteenth time, what is your best measure for a player’s overall value? RBIs! Ha ha ha
You have no clue. A smart person should know better than to make such an uninformed statement.

[Cardinals1964]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Probably because WAR is made up and is essentially pointless.

Except the player war’s on a team vary closely add up to team wins. Explain that.

[Cardinals1964]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Do you think Ozzie’s defense and baserunning were overrated, too?

Ozzie won GGs year after year. He would have won Plat Gloves if they existed then. No one in their right mind is comparing Edman to The Wizard.

Funny thing is, Ozzie said he probably wouldn’t stick in the majors now, because teams would not be patient with his early lack of hitting.

[Cardinals1964]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Probably because WAR is made up and is essentially pointless.

Absolutely.
Nothing but a short cut parlor game, which only those who do not understand the game place any credence in.
Smart people know better.

Except War by players add up to team wins. This ain’t about me. This is about educating the uneducated. I was the first and only one to say, that people that don’t understand something respond with stupid answers. They should be asking questions.
How can this be, they ask.
I don’t understand, they say.
Never bother to look any of it up either.

[Cardinals1964]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Probably because WAR is made up and is essentially pointless.

Absolutely.
Nothing but a short cut parlor game, which only those who do not understand the game place any credence in.
Smart people know better.

Do you even know how either fWAR or bWAR is calculated?
If so, explain how it’s a parlor game.
And for the umpteenth time, what is your best measure for a player’s overall value? RBIs! Ha ha ha
You have no clue. A smart person should know better than to make such an uninformed statement.

They don’t understand. I used to not understand. I used to think it was stupid. Then I decided to spend 30 minutes researching and it now makes perfect sense. It that simple.

[mattmitchl44]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Probably because WAR is made up and is essentially pointless.

Except the player war’s on a team vary closely add up to team wins. Explain that.

Exactly.

The correlations between team WAR and team wins for well-developed WAR methodologies are about as strong as you can get. They can never be perfect because you can never account for all of the random flukiness that happens every year - in particular in how some teams win or lose many more one-run games than expected. Like you can't really model/explain how the Nationals were 66-96 last year, but 24-18 in one-run games. You might think that some teams win more one-run games than expected because their bullpens are unusually good, but the Nationals had arguably the worst bullpen in MLB last year.

But, overall, team fWAR, for example, is going to be a close predictor of team wins (and an even closer predictor of team expected wins). That tells you that the overall WAR methodology can't be getting the value of hitting, pitching, baserunning, and defense wildly wrong at the player level for most players and still adding up to the "right" answers.

[ScotchMIrish]

Better question - why does anybody pay attention to these goofy analytics stats like bWAR?

[An Old Friend]

Better question - why does anybody pay attention to these goofy analytics stats like bWAR?

Where do you draw the line on useful or useless as it pertains to analytics?

Do you feel like defense shouldn’t be tracked? Is the assessment of an error just to mean… errr… goofy? Do you not care at all about a player’s base running ability and acumen? Do you not care why a pitcher may be prone to giving up home runs?

Generally curious.

[RamFan08NY]

I think everyone pretty much agrees that defense remains the hardest component of productivity to value in a WAR methodology.

However, defensive value IS real and needs to be accounted for. If someone has a better way of valuing EVERY PLAY made by EVERY PLAYER than DRS, UZR/150, OAA, FRV, etc., we'd all like to hear it.

I hear ya Matt, so why not just stop using WAR as some kind of fact based stat. It’s not….it’s flawed…..and yet its thrown out there right along with BA, OBP, OPS, ERA, WHIP

Literally all those other stats have flaws too...

Really? Over the course of a full season, what flaw is there in BA? Give me 5 guys on the same team who hit .290+ over 150 games in a season and you'll have a good team. It's a factual stat, that has no debate.

Likewise ERA. If your team ERA is in the low 3s, youre going to win more than you lose. How is it flawed?

WAR on the other hand? Let's imagine how many wins this player results in vs if he didnt play. How is that even quantified without knowing what the "replacement " player did?

[NYCardsFan]

I think everyone pretty much agrees that defense remains the hardest component of productivity to value in a WAR methodology.

However, defensive value IS real and needs to be accounted for. If someone has a better way of valuing EVERY PLAY made by EVERY PLAYER than DRS, UZR/150, OAA, FRV, etc., we'd all like to hear it.

I hear ya Matt, so why not just stop using WAR as some kind of fact based stat. It’s not….it’s flawed…..and yet its thrown out there right along with BA, OBP, OPS, ERA, WHIP

Literally all those other stats have flaws too...

Really? Over the course of a full season, what flaw is there in BA? Give me 5 guys on the same team who hit .290+ over 150 games in a season and you'll have a good team. It's a factual stat, that has no debate.

Likewise ERA. If your team ERA is in the low 3s, youre going to win more than you lose. How is it flawed?

WAR on the other hand? Let's imagine how many wins this player results in vs if he didnt play. How is that even quantified without knowing what the "replacement " player did?

Using your own “logic”:

“Give me 5 guys on the same team who [generate >= 5 WAR each] over 150 games in a season and you’ll have a good team. It’s a factual stat, that has no debate.”

“If your team [pitching WAR is in the low-to-mid 20s], you’re going to win more than you lose. How is it flawed?”