How the heck did Tommy Edman earn 6.2 bWAR?

[Carp4Cy]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

[Cardinals4Life]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Probably because WAR is made up and is essentially pointless.

[Goldfan]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Been debated here several times and one of the great examples of why WAR is a joke.
Reasoning is that he had a good defensive year……and he ran the bases well

[NYCardsFan]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

He had a great year defensively at both SS and 2B, and added a lot of additional baserunning value.

Position/IP/DRS/OAA/FRV
2B: 614.2; +12; +8; +7
SS: 622.0; +6; +10; +8

Positional value + fielding value + baserunning value + slightly above average hitting = a really good season. It’s basically just the accumulation of doing a lot of different things well.

[WaltsSuccessor]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Same reason Nick Castellanos "only" had 3.1 bWAR in 2021 despite 138 OPS+, .309/.362/.576 slash, with 34 HRs and 100 RBIs.

There's more to baseball than just hitting.

[rockondlouie]

WAR overvalues defense, always has.

Re:
J. Heyward/2015
13 HR
60 RBI
.293 .359 .439 .797

7 bWAR

[mattmitchl44]

I think everyone pretty much agrees that defense remains the hardest component of productivity to value in a WAR methodology.

However, defensive value IS real and needs to be accounted for. If someone has a better way of valuing EVERY PLAY made by EVERY PLAYER than DRS, UZR/150, OAA, FRV, etc., we'd all like to hear it.

[Goldfan]

I think everyone pretty much agrees that defense remains the hardest component of productivity to value in a WAR methodology.

However, defensive value IS real and needs to be accounted for. If someone has a better way of valuing EVERY PLAY made by EVERY PLAYER than DRS, UZR/150, OAA, FRV, etc., we'd all like to hear it.

I hear ya Matt, so why not just stop using WAR as some kind of fact based stat. It’s not….it’s flawed…..and yet its thrown out there right along with BA, OBP, OPS, ERA, WHIP

[WaltsSuccessor]

I think everyone pretty much agrees that defense remains the hardest component of productivity to value in a WAR methodology.

However, defensive value IS real and needs to be accounted for. If someone has a better way of valuing EVERY PLAY made by EVERY PLAYER than DRS, UZR/150, OAA, FRV, etc., we'd all like to hear it.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if the first 3 posters in this thread disagreed with that.

[NYCardsFan]

WAR overvalues defense, always has.

Re:
J. Heyward/2015
13 HR
60 RBI
.293 .359 .439 .797

7 bWAR

Heyward had an otherworldly +28 DRS in 2015 (following a +23 the year before). It was the peak of his career defensively by that metric. Combine that with a +6 RAA on the bases and a 117/121 OPS+/wRC+ offensively, and yeah, mathematically you get a pretty robust bWAR season (which it was). Granted, he never came close to replicating that performance in subsequent years, but that doesn’t change the fact that 2015 happened.

A super-elite defensive outfielder (as Heyward was in 2015) with a 121 wRC+ is a very valuable player no matter how you cut it. If you prefer using UZR as the default defensive metric, Heyward posted a somewhat lower (but still robust) 5.6 fWAR in 2015.

[WaltsSuccessor]

I think everyone pretty much agrees that defense remains the hardest component of productivity to value in a WAR methodology.

However, defensive value IS real and needs to be accounted for. If someone has a better way of valuing EVERY PLAY made by EVERY PLAYER than DRS, UZR/150, OAA, FRV, etc., we'd all like to hear it.

I hear ya Matt, so why not just stop using WAR as some kind of fact based stat. It’s not….it’s flawed…..and yet its thrown out there right along with BA, OBP, OPS, ERA, WHIP

Literally all those other stats have flaws too...

[3dender]

in 2022. 107 OPS+, no GG, only 57 RBIs, .324 OBP. .265 BA, career high of 111 SOs. Nothing eye popping in the stats line.

Do you not remember that year, where everyone complained that he got robbed of a GG? He was spectacular in the field, but didn't play enough at any one position to be considered (iirc).

[rockondlouie]

WAR overvalues defense, always has.

Re:
J. Heyward/2015
13 HR
60 RBI
.293 .359 .439 .797

7 bWAR

Heyward had an otherworldly +28 DRS in 2015 (following a +23 the year before). It was the peak of his career defensively by that metric. Combine that with a +6 RAA on the bases and a 117/121 OPS+/wRC+ offensively, and yeah, mathematically you get a pretty robust bWAR season (which it was). Granted, he never came close to replicating that performance in subsequent years, but that doesn’t change the fact that 2015 happened.

Or the fact that WAR overrates defense which is where Heyward got the bulk of that 7 bWAR.

[Goldfan]

WAR overvalues defense, always has.

Re:
J. Heyward/2015
13 HR
60 RBI
.293 .359 .439 .797

7 bWAR

Heyward had an otherworldly +28 DRS in 2015 (following a +23 the year before). It was the peak of his career defensively by that metric. Combine that with a +6 RAA on the bases and a 117/121 OPS+/wRC+ offensively, and yeah, mathematically you get a pretty robust bWAR season (which it was). Granted, he never came close to replicating that performance in subsequent years, but that doesn’t change the fact that 2015 happened.

I’d like to know how many PO’s Heyward had that season in RF above and beyond the slightly above avg RF. For the most part the RF has a good arm and are athletic.
Avg chances for RF per game…..2-3
So how many above and beyond 2-3 PER GAME were super human where only Heyward achieved the PO? It doesn’t add up.

[NYCardsFan]

WAR overvalues defense, always has.

Re:
J. Heyward/2015
13 HR
60 RBI
.293 .359 .439 .797

7 bWAR

Heyward had an otherworldly +28 DRS in 2015 (following a +23 the year before). It was the peak of his career defensively by that metric. Combine that with a +6 RAA on the bases and a 117/121 OPS+/wRC+ offensively, and yeah, mathematically you get a pretty robust bWAR season (which it was). Granted, he never came close to replicating that performance in subsequent years, but that doesn’t change the fact that 2015 happened.

Or the fact that WAR overrates defense which is where Heyward got the bulk of that 7 bWAR.

What is the “correct” value/weighting for defense, and more importantly, why? Since you assert WAR “overvalues” defense, it would seem to imply you know with certainty what the “right” value/weighting is.

[rockondlouie]

WAR overvalues defense, always has.

Re:
J. Heyward/2015
13 HR
60 RBI
.293 .359 .439 .797

7 bWAR

Heyward had an otherworldly +28 DRS in 2015 (following a +23 the year before). It was the peak of his career defensively by that metric. Combine that with a +6 RAA on the bases and a 117/121 OPS+/wRC+ offensively, and yeah, mathematically you get a pretty robust bWAR season (which it was). Granted, he never came close to replicating that performance in subsequent years, but that doesn’t change the fact that 2015 happened.

Or the fact that WAR overrates defense which is where Heyward got the bulk of that 7 bWAR.

What is the “correct” value/weighting for defense, and more importantly, why? Since you assert WAR “overvalues” defense, it would seem to imply you know with certainty what the “right” value/weighting is.

No one knows

Hey don't rail on me, even the WAR guys like you and me can't really define it.

But we do know that defensive metrics are volatile and less precise than offensive ones, too subjective at times.