When the Cardinals last tolerated a knowingly manager who had little chance to win

[earp]

Patsy Donovan (1901–1903) — .426 winning percentage, dismissed after a 43–94 season

next:

Kid Nichols (1904–1905) — fired mid‑season despite a Hall of Fame pedigree, managing a team with no realistic path to contention

that takes us to:

despite three straight non‑playoff seasons—the organization extended Oli Marmol through 2028 and publicly emphasized expectations of losing.

[2ninr]

Those knowingly managers are hard to come by.

[earp]

American League managers of recent non‑competitive teams
Oakland Athletics — Mark Kotsay
Kansas City Royals — Matt Quatraro
Chicago White Sox — Will Venable
Los Angeles Angels — Kurt Suzuki

National League managers of recent non‑competitive teams
Colorado Rockies — Warren Schaeffer
Pittsburgh Pirates — Don Kelly
Pittsburgh Pirates — Don Kelly
Pittsburgh Pirates — Don Kelly

This is St. Louis:
Rebuild mode with emphasis on prospects over wins

Low payrolls or major cost‑cutting

Trading away established players

Organizational focus on long‑term development

Managers retained despite poor records, signaling expectations of losing seasons

STL NOW:

Teams like the A’s, Pirates, Royals, Rockies, Cardinals and Nationals have:

Lower payrolls

Longer rebuild cycles

Less media pressure

Ownership more willing to accept losing seasons

Managers in these environments often lead rosters that cannot realistically win in the short term.

STL CARDS MOVING?

[woofy25]

It’s the roster. Why are so many misguiding their contempt? Who, of any real value, wants to manage this roster?

[JohnnyMO]

I just checked with Google. Sure enough, Patsy Donovan, Kid Nichols, and Oli are the last three knowingly managers. Good stuff as usual Earp.

[scoutyjones2]

Patsy Donovan (1901–1903) — .426 winning percentage, dismissed after a 43–94 season

next:

Kid Nichols (1904–1905) — fired mid‑season despite a Hall of Fame pedigree, managing a team with no realistic path to contention

that takes us to:

despite three straight non‑playoff seasons—the organization extended Oli Marmol through 2028 and publicly emphasized expectations of losing.

Knowingly? WUT?

[JuanAgosto]

Never thought i would see oliver pud marmol labeled as "knowingly".

[Cardinals1964]

Patsy Donovan (1901–1903) — .426 winning percentage, dismissed after a 43–94 season

next:

Kid Nichols (1904–1905) — fired mid‑season despite a Hall of Fame pedigree, managing a team with no realistic path to contention

that takes us to:

despite three straight non‑playoff seasons—the organization extended Oli Marmol through 2028 and publicly emphasized expectations of losing.

What about LaRussa? He had a losing record his 1st 4 years with the Cardinals. Marmol has a winning record after 4 years.

[ecleme22]

It’s the roster. Why are so many misguiding their contempt? Who, of any real value, wants to manage this roster?

Thank you.

[HighHeat23]

Patsy Donovan (1901–1903) — .426 winning percentage, dismissed after a 43–94 season

next:

Kid Nichols (1904–1905) — fired mid‑season despite a Hall of Fame pedigree, managing a team with no realistic path to contention

that takes us to:

despite three straight non‑playoff seasons—the organization extended Oli Marmol through 2028 and publicly emphasized expectations of losing.

That "Hall of Fame pedigree" probably wasn't considered since the Hall of Fame wasn't established for another 30 years. He said knowingly.

[45s]

It’s the roster. Why are so many misguiding their contempt? Who, of any real value, wants to manage this roster?

some of our friends are very uncomfortable criticizing the players...almost like the players are the local high school boys that one has to be loyal to

how many negative posts begin with...."I love X, but...."

[OldRed]

Whitey Herzog:

On June 8, 1980, Herzog was hired by St. Louis Cardinals (under general manager John Claiborne) to manage the team, replacing Ken Boyer. Herzog quickly made his presence known, stating "I'm going to take this dang team and run it like I think it should be run. I don't think I've ever had trouble with players hustling. I understand that's been a problem here. I think you'll see the Cardinals running out groundballs."[24] He won the 1982 World Series, as well as the National League pennant in both 1985 and 1987, and was named The Sporting News Sportsman of the Year in 1982.[25]

Herzog's style of play, based on the strategy of attrition, was nicknamed "Whiteyball"[26] and concentrated on pitching, speed, and defense to win games rather than on home runs. Herzog's lineups generally consisted of one or more base-stealing threats at the top of the lineup, with a power threat such as George Brett or Jack Clark hitting third or fourth, protected by one or two productive hitters, followed by more base stealers. This tactic kept payrolls low, while allowing Herzog to win consistently in stadiums with deep fences and artificial turf, both of which were characteristics of Royals Stadium (now Kauffman Stadium) and Busch Memorial Stadium during his managerial career.


Herzog's final season with the Cardinals, and in his managerial career, was the 1990 season; he resigned on July 6 of that year with the team at 33–47 and in last place in the NL East. He jokingly stated, "I came here in last place and I leave here in last place. I left them right where I started."[28] His overall Cardinals record was 822 wins and 728 losses.

It was time to move on. He couldn't tolerate being a position where he didn't have control and he hated losing.

[bretto12]

the team doesn't lose because Oli is the manager. It loses because the talent base is far less than the rest of the league. A ten year old can understand this, why can't adult CT posters?

[Voldemort]

Those knowingly managers are hard to come by.

I see what you did there. LOL

[JohnnyMO]

the team doesn't lose because Oli is the manager. It loses because the talent base is far less than the rest of the league. A ten year old can understand this, why can't adult CT posters?

Partially it’s scapegoating, very common because some human brains just can’t handle complexity. They need to simplify problems to one easy solution so their brain doesn’t break thinking about all the contributing factors. Silly, but very common. We all do it sometimes.

The other side to that coin is just because Oli isn’t the sole or primary reason for losing doesn’t mean that he isn’t a contributing factor. It’s possible to understand that talent isn’t there and think a different manager would be helpful.

[OldRed]

Some managers are said to have a great baseball mind. Then there is Oli.