There is a reason Mozeliak was replaced and Marmol wasn't

[ScotchMIrish]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

What would you say were his better options in handling the pitching staff?

Month of August Pallante posted an era of 8.67 in 6 starts and was left in the game to throw 90 + pitches in 5 of 6 starts. Obviously had a tired arm. Marmol adhered to a script instead of managing according to what was happening on the field.

The only possible defense is Mozeliak's "game planner" who Bloom has since reassigned. It's possible Marmol was being forced to adhere to a predetermined outcome but it was asinine to leave Pallante in those games. Imagine taking you family to a game and you see that. Are you inclined to attend another game?

Pallante was a disaster for sure, but who else did he have that he should have used instead?

He wasn't great but in April his ERA was 4.13 and climbed in a linear path as Marmol continued to leave him on the mound to throw his predetermined number of pitches. Contrast that with Liberatore who in 29 starts only threw 90 + pitches 6 times. Only once from July on. Pallante threw 90 + 5 times in August alone.

Bring up an arm from the minors and skip a start. It's not rocket science. He obviously had a tired arm. It's mind numbingly stupid to leave him in games to post an ERA of 8 for the month.

You realize Marmol doesn't call anyone up, or send anyone down, right? If he skipped a start, who should he use? And, how many times can you use this Plan B to skip him. I agree that someone (almost anyone) else was needed- the roster didn't permit it.

If LaRussa wanted to call up someone for a spot start to rest a rotation pitcher would the GM say no? He did it regularly.

[earp]

Not sure they are lined up to manage here, and won't pay them anyway. Think Oili is it for a bit.

[2ninr]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

What would you say were his better options in handling the pitching staff?

Month of August Pallante posted an era of 8.67 in 6 starts and was left in the game to throw 90 + pitches in 5 of 6 starts. Obviously had a tired arm. Marmol adhered to a script instead of managing according to what was happening on the field.

The only possible defense is Mozeliak's "game planner" who Bloom has since reassigned. It's possible Marmol was being forced to adhere to a predetermined outcome but it was asinine to leave Pallante in those games. Imagine taking you family to a game and you see that. Are you inclined to attend another game?

The real problem was, Oli was trotting out there the best that he had. A manager cant go to his pen in the 3rd or 4th inning every game just because the SP hasn't got anything. You cant burn up the pen either.
None of us liked seeing Miles, and Pallante going out there every 5th day, but thats what Oli was given.

With a starting pitcher who obviously has a tired arm you skip a start and bring up someone from the minors.

I don't disagree with you. I disagree with who you are blaming.

[ScotchMIrish]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

What would you say were his better options in handling the pitching staff?

Month of August Pallante posted an era of 8.67 in 6 starts and was left in the game to throw 90 + pitches in 5 of 6 starts. Obviously had a tired arm. Marmol adhered to a script instead of managing according to what was happening on the field.

The only possible defense is Mozeliak's "game planner" who Bloom has since reassigned. It's possible Marmol was being forced to adhere to a predetermined outcome but it was asinine to leave Pallante in those games. Imagine taking you family to a game and you see that. Are you inclined to attend another game?

The real problem was, Oli was trotting out there the best that he had. A manager cant go to his pen in the 3rd or 4th inning every game just because the SP hasn't got anything. You cant burn up the pen either.
None of us liked seeing Miles, and Pallante going out there every 5th day, but thats what Oli was given.

With a starting pitcher who obviously has a tired arm you skip a start and bring up someone from the minors.

I don't disagree with you. I disagree with who you are blaming.

It's possible you are correct but LaRussa did it all the time and I guarantee you the GM didn't try to stop him. Same with Matheny. Manager tells the GM he needs a spot starter. GM brings a guy up for a start or 2. If Mozeliak was blocking that I'd be very surprised.

[rockondlouie]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

Certainly want Oli gone ASAP but I understand why BDWJr wouldn't allow C. Bloom to axe him this season given he's under contract, perhaps might even give him a one year (re: millions under what he might have to pay his new manger) extension given the lockout is on the horizon.

But

I don't compliment him on almost anything since I think he's a huge "MEH" as a manager but the one thing he did do good (IMO) SM is manage his pitching staff, especially his bullpen in 2025.

You think running the starting pitching into the ground to protect the bullpen is good managing?

When you have M. Mikolas, E. Fedde and A. Pallante as 3/5ths of your starting rotation they ran themselves into the ground.

He actually did a good job with the staff he had in 2025, especially running the pen'.

(And understand SM, I loathe Oli and have wanted him gone for a couple years )

[2ninr]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

What would you say were his better options in handling the pitching staff?

Month of August Pallante posted an era of 8.67 in 6 starts and was left in the game to throw 90 + pitches in 5 of 6 starts. Obviously had a tired arm. Marmol adhered to a script instead of managing according to what was happening on the field.

The only possible defense is Mozeliak's "game planner" who Bloom has since reassigned. It's possible Marmol was being forced to adhere to a predetermined outcome but it was asinine to leave Pallante in those games. Imagine taking you family to a game and you see that. Are you inclined to attend another game?

The real problem was, Oli was trotting out there the best that he had. A manager cant go to his pen in the 3rd or 4th inning every game just because the SP hasn't got anything. You cant burn up the pen either.
None of us liked seeing Miles, and Pallante going out there every 5th day, but thats what Oli was given.

With a starting pitcher who obviously has a tired arm you skip a start and bring up someone from the minors.

I don't disagree with you. I disagree with who you are blaming.

It's possible you are correct but LaRussa did it all the time and I guarantee you the GM didn't try to stop him. Same with Matheny. Manager tells the GM he needs a spot starter. GM brings a guy up for a start or 2. If Mozeliak was blocking that I'd be very surprised.

JMO Scotch, but Mo had become a dictator. And Oli certainly didn't have the clout of Tony. Mo hired rookie managers for a reason.

[Talkin' Baseball]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

What would you say were his better options in handling the pitching staff?

Month of August Pallante posted an era of 8.67 in 6 starts and was left in the game to throw 90 + pitches in 5 of 6 starts. Obviously had a tired arm. Marmol adhered to a script instead of managing according to what was happening on the field.

The only possible defense is Mozeliak's "game planner" who Bloom has since reassigned. It's possible Marmol was being forced to adhere to a predetermined outcome but it was asinine to leave Pallante in those games. Imagine taking you family to a game and you see that. Are you inclined to attend another game?

Pallante was a disaster for sure, but who else did he have that he should have used instead?

He wasn't great but in April his ERA was 4.13 and climbed in a linear path as Marmol continued to leave him on the mound to throw his predetermined number of pitches. Contrast that with Liberatore who in 29 starts only threw 90 + pitches 6 times. Only once from July on. Pallante threw 90 + 5 times in August alone.

Bring up an arm from the minors and skip a start. It's not rocket science. He obviously had a tired arm. It's mind numbingly stupid to leave him in games to post an ERA of 8 for the month.

You realize Marmol doesn't call anyone up, or send anyone down, right? If he skipped a start, who should he use? And, how many times can you use this Plan B to skip him. I agree that someone (almost anyone) else was needed- the roster didn't permit it.

If LaRussa wanted to call up someone for a spot start to rest a rotation pitcher would the GM say no? He did it regularly.

Maybe so. Serious question- do you think this is how things operated in 2025?

[ScotchMIrish]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

Certainly want Oli gone ASAP but I understand why BDWJr wouldn't allow C. Bloom to axe him this season given he's under contract, perhaps might even give him a one year (re: millions under what he might have to pay his new manger) extension given the lockout is on the horizon.

But

I don't compliment him on almost anything since I think he's a huge "MEH" as a manager but the one thing he did do good (IMO) SM is manage his pitching staff, especially his bullpen in 2025.

You think running the starting pitching into the ground to protect the bullpen is good managing?

When you have M. Mikolas, E. Fedde and A. Pallante as 3/5ths of your starting rotation they ran themselves into the ground.

He actually did a good job with the staff he had in 2025, especially running the pen'.

(And understand SM, I loathe Oli and have wanted him gone for a couple years )

Explain why Liberatore in 29 starts only threw 90+ pitches 6 times. Only 1 time from July to the end of the season. Pallante did it 5 times in August alone.

[ScotchMIrish]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

What would you say were his better options in handling the pitching staff?

Month of August Pallante posted an era of 8.67 in 6 starts and was left in the game to throw 90 + pitches in 5 of 6 starts. Obviously had a tired arm. Marmol adhered to a script instead of managing according to what was happening on the field.

The only possible defense is Mozeliak's "game planner" who Bloom has since reassigned. It's possible Marmol was being forced to adhere to a predetermined outcome but it was asinine to leave Pallante in those games. Imagine taking you family to a game and you see that. Are you inclined to attend another game?

The real problem was, Oli was trotting out there the best that he had. A manager cant go to his pen in the 3rd or 4th inning every game just because the SP hasn't got anything. You cant burn up the pen either.
None of us liked seeing Miles, and Pallante going out there every 5th day, but thats what Oli was given.

With a starting pitcher who obviously has a tired arm you skip a start and bring up someone from the minors.

I don't disagree with you. I disagree with who you are blaming.

It's possible you are correct but LaRussa did it all the time and I guarantee you the GM didn't try to stop him. Same with Matheny. Manager tells the GM he needs a spot starter. GM brings a guy up for a start or 2. If Mozeliak was blocking that I'd be very surprised.

JMO Scotch, but Mo had become a dictator. And Oli certainly didn't have the clout of Tony. Mo hired rookie managers for a reason.

I suppose you could be right but that is standard procedure in MLB. If a starting pitchers needs to skip a start you bring up a guy from milb.

[ScotchMIrish]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

What would you say were his better options in handling the pitching staff?

Month of August Pallante posted an era of 8.67 in 6 starts and was left in the game to throw 90 + pitches in 5 of 6 starts. Obviously had a tired arm. Marmol adhered to a script instead of managing according to what was happening on the field.

The only possible defense is Mozeliak's "game planner" who Bloom has since reassigned. It's possible Marmol was being forced to adhere to a predetermined outcome but it was asinine to leave Pallante in those games. Imagine taking you family to a game and you see that. Are you inclined to attend another game?

Pallante was a disaster for sure, but who else did he have that he should have used instead?

He wasn't great but in April his ERA was 4.13 and climbed in a linear path as Marmol continued to leave him on the mound to throw his predetermined number of pitches. Contrast that with Liberatore who in 29 starts only threw 90 + pitches 6 times. Only once from July on. Pallante threw 90 + 5 times in August alone.

Bring up an arm from the minors and skip a start. It's not rocket science. He obviously had a tired arm. It's mind numbingly stupid to leave him in games to post an ERA of 8 for the month.

You realize Marmol doesn't call anyone up, or send anyone down, right? If he skipped a start, who should he use? And, how many times can you use this Plan B to skip him. I agree that someone (almost anyone) else was needed- the roster didn't permit it.

If LaRussa wanted to call up someone for a spot start to rest a rotation pitcher would the GM say no? He did it regularly.

Maybe so. Serious question- do you think this is how things operated in 2025?

It would be bizarre if Marmol was telling the front office he needed to skip a start and the front office told him no. If you were the GM would you want your fans to pay to watch a pitcher throw batting practice?

[TheJackBurton]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

I think it has as much to do with the fact we are likely heading to a long lock out so no point in hiring a manger and then they immediately have a potentially missed season. Let Marmol play out the season, see how it goes. I believe we are a 90+ loss team so why introduce a new manager into that, just let Oli do what Oli does best, lose.

[alw80]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

Certainly want Oli gone ASAP but I understand why BDWJr wouldn't allow C. Bloom to axe him this season given he's under contract, perhaps might even give him a one year (re: millions under what he might have to pay his new manger) extension given the lockout is on the horizon.

But

I don't compliment him on almost anything since I think he's a huge "MEH" as a manager but the one thing he did do good (IMO) SM is manage his pitching staff, especially his bullpen in 2025.

You think running the starting pitching into the ground to protect the bullpen is good managing?

When you have M. Mikolas, E. Fedde and A. Pallante as 3/5ths of your starting rotation they ran themselves into the ground.

He actually did a good job with the staff he had in 2025, especially running the pen'.

(And understand SM, I loathe Oli and have wanted him gone for a couple years )

Explain why Liberatore in 29 starts only threw 90+ pitches 6 times. Only 1 time from July to the end of the season. Pallante did it 5 times in August alone.

They probably saw Libby as a future member of the rotation and wanted to save his arm as much as possible and Pallante and Mikolas not so much.

[ilcubuffs]

Business who are serious regarding rebuild, reset, stopping failure, et al. clean house. You do not keep those in management who are directly associated with the failure. Moreover, if you do keep them, you do not let them continue to have the same processes and responsibility that contributed to the lack of success.

Mo Ran and Marmot should have been gone 2 years ago. Evidently the lease payments on their knee pads were not completed.

[rockondlouie]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

Certainly want Oli gone ASAP but I understand why BDWJr wouldn't allow C. Bloom to axe him this season given he's under contract, perhaps might even give him a one year (re: millions under what he might have to pay his new manger) extension given the lockout is on the horizon.

But

I don't compliment him on almost anything since I think he's a huge "MEH" as a manager but the one thing he did do good (IMO) SM is manage his pitching staff, especially his bullpen in 2025.

You think running the starting pitching into the ground to protect the bullpen is good managing?

When you have M. Mikolas, E. Fedde and A. Pallante as 3/5ths of your starting rotation they ran themselves into the ground.

He actually did a good job with the staff he had in 2025, especially running the pen'.

(And understand SM, I loathe Oli and have wanted him gone for a couple years )

Explain why Liberatore in 29 starts only threw 90+ pitches 6 times. Only 1 time from July to the end of the season. Pallante did it 5 times in August alone.

Easy

Libby wasn't ramped up to start in 2025, didn't really find out he'd be in the SR until nearing the end of STing.

This season, with a full offseason to train as a starter, I'd expect him to exceed 90 pitches multi times in games he's pitching well.

Here's a stat for you SM:

In games started by the Toxic Trio of Mikolas-Fedde-Pallante the Cardinals only won 31 of their 82 games started or a .378 winning%.

In games started by others, they had a .588 winning%!

[ScotchMIrish]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

I think it has as much to do with the fact we are likely heading to a long lock out so no point in hiring a manger and then they immediately have a potentially missed season. Let Marmol play out the season, see how it goes. I believe we are a 90+ loss team so why introduce a new manager into that, just let Oli do what Oli does best, lose.

That could be part of it also. Why hire "your guy" to oversee the dump portion of dump and rebuild?

[ScotchMIrish]

The roster wasn't good and replacing Marmol would be blaming it all on him. I thought Marmol mishandled the pitching staff last season and I'm not convinced he is a good manager but Bloom wasn't going to fire him because doing that would suggest the roster was good enough to win.

If it was up to me I'd have replaced Marmol and brought in a new group of coaches but Bloom wasn't going to do that.

Certainly want Oli gone ASAP but I understand why BDWJr wouldn't allow C. Bloom to axe him this season given he's under contract, perhaps might even give him a one year (re: millions under what he might have to pay his new manger) extension given the lockout is on the horizon.

But

I don't compliment him on almost anything since I think he's a huge "MEH" as a manager but the one thing he did do good (IMO) SM is manage his pitching staff, especially his bullpen in 2025.

You think running the starting pitching into the ground to protect the bullpen is good managing?

When you have M. Mikolas, E. Fedde and A. Pallante as 3/5ths of your starting rotation they ran themselves into the ground.

He actually did a good job with the staff he had in 2025, especially running the pen'.

(And understand SM, I loathe Oli and have wanted him gone for a couple years )

Explain why Liberatore in 29 starts only threw 90+ pitches 6 times. Only 1 time from July to the end of the season. Pallante did it 5 times in August alone.

They probably saw Libby as a future member of the rotation and wanted to save his arm as much as possible and Pallante and Mikolas not so much.

What does that do to morale in the dugout and to attendance? You pay $100 + dollars to take the family to the game and the pitcher is getting knocked around but left in the game because he isn't in next season's plans?