Bernie on Marmol: he's not stupid, you are

[Dicktar2023]

Can someone please be specific about how Marmol's handling of the pitching staff has been "brilliant" the last two seasons? I'm not just being argumentative, I'm really wondering. The Cardinal Nation state media repeat that line as though everyone knows what it means, and I honestly don't.

[icon]

Here's what we know about Bloom:

1. He's been here a while, more than 2 years in fact.
2. He makes changes: Wanted to trade FOUR vets this offseason. HE DID IT.
3. He knows more about Oli, his performance and how players feel about him than CTers do.

The three things above are indisputable facts.


Now...I seriously doubt CB would retain Oli if Oli were as bad as CTers think he is.

Does that mean I love Oli? No. Does that mean I think CB loves Oli? No.

But I do think the fact that OM is still here means that CB obviously sees positives in Oli's managerial performance that are an asset to where the team is now. And no, it has nothing to do with the possible lockout...

Two more indisputable facts.
And they explain why The Marmot is still employed.
One, DeWitt is famously loyal and rewards those who are loyal in return: The Marmot has been employed by the Cardinals since 2007 and he has worked nowhere else as an adult.
Two, right now, DeWitt is not spending any money that he does not need to: he has no interest in paying 2 managers just now.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

BDW wasn't loyal to Shildt, and he was in the organization a lot longer.

[Cardinals1964]

The Marmol Glaze is courtesy of the Owner

He is a losing manager in 4 years!

No. He actually has a winning percentage I 4 years. Don’t make things up. La Russa was actually worse actually worse in his first 4 years with the Cardinals.

[Cardinals1964]

Here's what we know about Bloom:

1. He's been here a while, more than 2 years in fact.
2. He makes changes: Wanted to trade FOUR vets this offseason. HE DID IT.
3. He knows more about Oli, his performance and how players feel about him than CTers do.

The three things above are indisputable facts.


Now...I seriously doubt CB would retain Oli if Oli were as bad as CTers think he is.

Does that mean I love Oli? No. Does that mean I think CB loves Oli? No.

But I do think the fact that OM is still here means that CB obviously sees positives in Oli's managerial performance that are an asset to where the team is now. And no, it has nothing to do with the possible lockout...

Two more indisputable facts.
And they explain why The Marmot is still employed.
One, DeWitt is famously loyal and rewards those who are loyal in return: The Marmot has been employed by the Cardinals since 2007 and he has worked nowhere else as an adult.
Two, right now, DeWitt is not spending any money that he does not need to: he has no interest in paying 2 managers just now.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

BDW wasn't loyal to Shildt, and he was in the organization a lot longer.

Shildt got fired from two different teams in a short span. Why was that?

[Cardinals1964]

Can someone please be specific about how Marmol's handling of the pitching staff has been "brilliant" the last two seasons? I'm not just being argumentative, I'm really wondering. The Cardinal Nation state media repeat that line as though everyone knows what it means, and I honestly don't.

How has it not been brilliant?

[Jeff Goldblum]

Roster sucks, manager sucks. Next.

[TopofthePerch]

Agree with Bernie.

[ScotchMIrish]

Norm Stewart in retrospect gets much respect for refusing to deal with that septic bunch Bernie was associated with in St Louis.

[jcgmoi]

No wonder he was fired.

As I wrote:

it's hard to dismiss what he says completely unless you're locked into a position.

[cardinalsfever44]

Can someone please be specific about how Marmol's handling of the pitching staff has been "brilliant" the last two seasons? I'm not just being argumentative, I'm really wondering. The Cardinal Nation state media repeat that line as though everyone knows what it means, and I honestly don't.

Can you provide specific examples of what makes him bad?

I provided in this thread that the Cards bullpen was 9th best in MLB last season in ERA. That's a pretty (bleep) good job considering we traded away our closer and setup guy at the deadline and a lot of unknown prior to last season guys were used down the stretch.

Other than a move in the playoffs he made in his rookie managing season, what examples do you have that he's bad?

I'll also add that this team with a rotation that included Mikolas, Pallante, and Fedde was in the playoff hunt basically until the deadline where we sold. Pretty awful managing job I'd say, no?

[Melville]

Here's what we know about Bloom:

1. He's been here a while, more than 2 years in fact.
2. He makes changes: Wanted to trade FOUR vets this offseason. HE DID IT.
3. He knows more about Oli, his performance and how players feel about him than CTers do.

The three things above are indisputable facts.


Now...I seriously doubt CB would retain Oli if Oli were as bad as CTers think he is.

Does that mean I love Oli? No. Does that mean I think CB loves Oli? No.

But I do think the fact that OM is still here means that CB obviously sees positives in Oli's managerial performance that are an asset to where the team is now. And no, it has nothing to do with the possible lockout...

Two more indisputable facts.
And they explain why The Marmot is still employed.
One, DeWitt is famously loyal and rewards those who are loyal in return: The Marmot has been employed by the Cardinals since 2007 and he has worked nowhere else as an adult.
Two, right now, DeWitt is not spending any money that he does not need to: he has no interest in paying 2 managers just now.
Easy.
Obvious.
Correct.

BDW wasn't loyal to Shildt, and he was in the organization a lot longer.

Shildt was hired because he was a company man and DeWitt is very loyal.
Shildt was fired when he argued with DeWitt and Super Slo Mo - which was viewed as a betrayal.
Read it again: DeWitt is famously loyal and rewards those who are loyal in return.
The Marmot observed what happened to Shildt and is determined to not repeat it.

[Clubmaker2]

Early in the 2025 season NA said something like.........this year is different, we show up feeling like we have a good chance to win the game verse last year we would show up just expecting whatever was going to happen to us was going to happen.

So Marmol got to manage a totally not looking to win clubhouse in 2024 lol and accepted it and didnt change it etc... so ok, if winning and a winning culture is not a concern in evaluating a manager leading an organization

His contracted was extended…….SO HE WOULDN’T FEEL PRESSURE TO WIN!!!!

Then there is Jordan Walker not doing the relief pitcher study in depth as supposed to be done on first day of a series, yet Oli leaves this as somehow optional instead of telling walker its mandatory ....

Exactly. A huge pillar of Marmol Apologetics is "well, he has good advice, but these stubborn players don't listen."

But getting players to listen...Is. His. Job.

He's a coach, not a reference librarian. He doesn't just need to be able to have knowledge, he needs to be able to communicate that knowledge in a way that people take in. Not every coach is going to be great at that aspect of the job. But then you should not be the manager of a MLB team.

+1

[Melville]

Can someone please be specific about how Marmol's handling of the pitching staff has been "brilliant" the last two seasons? I'm not just being argumentative, I'm really wondering. The Cardinal Nation state media repeat that line as though everyone knows what it means, and I honestly don't.

You don't seriously dispute that giving Pallante and Mikolas over 60 combined starts last year, which put the team at a disadvantage before the first pitch was ever thrown, was "brilliant", do you?
Intelligence such as that is rare indeed.

[Dicktar2023]

Can someone please be specific about how Marmol's handling of the pitching staff has been "brilliant" the last two seasons? I'm not just being argumentative, I'm really wondering. The Cardinal Nation state media repeat that line as though everyone knows what it means, and I honestly don't.

How has it not been brilliant?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

[Cardinals1964]

Can someone please be specific about how Marmol's handling of the pitching staff has been "brilliant" the last two seasons? I'm not just being argumentative, I'm really wondering. The Cardinal Nation state media repeat that line as though everyone knows what it means, and I honestly don't.

How has it not been brilliant?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

Brilliant. Just say you don’t know.

[Dicktar2023]

Can someone please be specific about how Marmol's handling of the pitching staff has been "brilliant" the last two seasons? I'm not just being argumentative, I'm really wondering. The Cardinal Nation state media repeat that line as though everyone knows what it means, and I honestly don't.

Can you provide specific examples of what makes him bad?

I provided in this thread that the Cards bullpen was 9th best in MLB last season in ERA. That's a pretty (drat) good job considering we traded away our closer and setup guy at the deadline and a lot of unknown prior to last season guys were used down the stretch.

Other than a move in the playoffs he made in his rookie managing season, what examples do you have that he's bad?

I'll also add that this team with a rotation that included Mikolas, Pallante, and Fedde was in the playoff hunt basically until the deadline where we sold. Pretty awful managing job I'd say, no?

There have been specific examples of his badness in this thread. You're free to take them or leave them, but they're there.

It seems like the only argument that he's "brilliant" is that the mediocre performance of the BP the last two years could have been worse?

True, maybe, but can we cite specific decisions made by Marmol that constitute brilliance in handling the pitching? Or even a general but tangible strategy/approach to pitching that contributed to the staff's success?