Tradition of Elite corners

[Carp4Cy]

When the Cardinals have been good over the past Generation, its largely come from Elite contributions from our corners, esp 1st and 3b.

1B:
Jack Clark - AS and MVP caliber
Mark McGwire - former GG and AA, elite bat
Will Clark - (briefly)
Albert Pujols, generationally ELITE HOF
Matt Carp - AS and near MVP caliber in some of his years
Goldschmidt - Elite D and MVP, probable HOF

3B:
Terry Pendleton - GG and MVP votes
Scott Rolen - HOF D and Bat
Nolan Arenado (2021/2022 version) - HOF caliber, possible best 3B glove ever.

The list proves the having Elite talent at critical positions is not just a get lucky once every 50 years type of thing. No excuses. Our goal has to be elite talent at the corners. Not just one on the roster but multiple AS and MVP caliber bats, esp at 1B and 3B.

Compared to this list, Burly looks like a placeholder, and Gorman is a nobody. We will be "less than" until we can find Elite upgrades.

[sikeston bulldog2]

When the Cardinals have been good over the past Generation, its largely come from Elite contributions from our corners, esp 1st and 3b.

1B:
Jack Clark - AS and MVP caliber
Mark McGwire - former GG and AA, elite bat
Will Clark - (briefly)
Albert Pujols, generationally ELITE HOF
Matt Carp - AS and near MVP caliber in some of his years
Goldschmidt - Elite D and MVP, probable HOF

3B:
Terry Pendleton - GG and MVP votes
Scott Rolen - HOF D and Bat
Nolan Arenado (2021/2022 version) - HOF caliber, possible best 3B glove ever.

The list proves the having Elite talent at critical positions is not just a get lucky once every 50 years type of thing. No excuses. Our goal has to be elite talent at the corners. Not just one on the roster but multiple AS and MVP caliber bats, esp at 1B and 3B.

Compared to this list, Burly looks like a placeholder, and Gorman is a nobody. We will be "less than" until we can find Elite upgrades.

A bigger deal is that some of these corners okayed together. Seperate or alone I doubt has the same results.

Conversely how many years since 68 have we had a league level top 3 starter.

[Carp4Cy]

When the Cardinals have been good over the past Generation, its largely come from Elite contributions from our corners, esp 1st and 3b.

1B:
Jack Clark - AS and MVP caliber
Mark McGwire - former GG and AA, elite bat
Will Clark - (briefly)
Albert Pujols, generationally ELITE HOF
Matt Carp - AS and near MVP caliber in some of his years
Goldschmidt - Elite D and MVP, probable HOF

3B:
Terry Pendleton - GG and MVP votes
Scott Rolen - HOF D and Bat
Nolan Arenado (2021/2022 version) - HOF caliber, possible best 3B glove ever.

The list proves the having Elite talent at critical positions is not just a get lucky once every 50 years type of thing. No excuses. Our goal has to be elite talent at the corners. Not just one on the roster but multiple AS and MVP caliber bats, esp at 1B and 3B.

Compared to this list, Burly looks like a placeholder, and Gorman is a nobody. We will be "less than" until we can find Elite upgrades.

A bigger deal is that some of these corners okayed together. Seperate or alone I doubt has the same results.

Conversely how many years since 68 have we had a league level top 3 starter.

Carp and Wainwright.

Back in '87 not sure where Forsch and Tudor would have ranked? No All stars and Worrell led the staff in ERA and WAR.

Still won a pennant - maybe offense really can be more critical than elite pitching?

[ClassicO]

Yes, not only is this the worst outfield I've ever seen for the Cards (as it was last year), but the Burly/Gorman corners may be the worst as well. Two guys who can't play a lick of defense and are slow as molasses, and Gorman hasn't hit for 2 years. Both are DHs.

Fun note: Burly had 7 more ABs than Willy C. last year, but Willson had 16 more runs scored and 11 more RBI.

[IndCard75]

The Dodgers and Blue Jays didn’t have what I would call elite 3B last year. I get your point but I would argue there is more than one way to build a winning team. If Winn JW Herrera and Baez become elite then you can have just good players at the corners imo

[Carp4Cy]

The Dodgers and Blue Jays didn’t have what I would call elite 3B last year. I get your point but I would argue there is more than one way to build a winning team. If Winn JW Herrera and Baez become elite then you can have just good players at the corners imo

I suppose, but we’d also need about 50 HRs from DH to match Ohtani.

Also Gorman hasn’t even been “good” level. Nado was at least serviceable when healthy if we had only had other elite bats to bat cleanup and carry the HR load.

If 2 WAR is a league average starter we don’t even have very many of those.

[Cardinals4Life]

The Dodgers and Blue Jays didn’t have what I would call elite 3B last year. I get your point but I would argue there is more than one way to build a winning team. If Winn JW Herrera and Baez become elite then you can have just good players at the corners imo

Bottom line is you have to have at least a couple of "aircraft carriers" in a lineup, preferably 3 to be elite. (Like the MV3) It doesn't necessarily matter where they play defensively, but you have to have 3 offensive forces in the lineup. Surround them with some nice solid/complimentary players and a defensive whiz or 2 and you have the makings of a competitive lineup.

The Cardinals currently have ZERO.


Currently we have:

Burelson - Solid/Complimentary Player
Herrera - Solid/Complimentary Player
Winn - Defensive Whiz
Scott - Defensive Whiz?
Wetherholt - TBD


If Wetherholt can become the player I believe he can, then we will probably need 2 "aircraft carriers" to go with him, plus 2 more solid hitters.

[renostl]

Yes, not only is this the worst outfield I've ever seen for the Cards (as it was last year), but the Burly/Gorman corners may be the worst as well. Two guys who can't play a lick of defense and are slow as molasses, and Gorman hasn't hit for 2 years. Both are DHs.

Fun note: Burly had 7 more ABs than Willy C. last year, but Willson had 16 more runs scored and 11 more RBI.

WC had 18 less hits in that but a 41% X/H%. Donovan 6 more hits than WC, 6 less runs 30 less RBI a 32% X/H.
It usually takes 2 more hits to score him.

If we want Runs and RBI's from the profile of those players, average or less speed, then
their X/H% needs to be above league average of 35%.

AB needs some of his H's to be XBH. His career is 31%. A slow Matt Carp could LO and score.
2013-2018 only 1 outlier 38%, 37%, 27%,,48%,49%, 47%, 54%, 39%, 39%

He's close and unsure if he'll ever get there. NG has the ratio but he hasn't hit enough. His 2023
with more games would have got 100 RBI's. He was at 46% X/H.

[renostl]

The Dodgers and Blue Jays didn’t have what I would call elite 3B last year. I get your point but I would argue there is more than one way to build a winning team. If Winn JW Herrera and Baez become elite then you can have just good players at the corners imo

Bottom line is you have to have at least a couple of "aircraft carriers" in a lineup, preferably 3 to be elite. (Like the MV3) It doesn't necessarily matter where they play defensively, but you have to have 3 offensive forces in the lineup. Surround them with some nice solid/complimentary players and a defensive whiz or 2 and you have the makings of a competitive lineup.

The Cardinals currently have ZERO.


Currently we have:

Burelson - Solid/Complimentary Player
Herrera - Solid/Complimentary Player
Winn - Defensive Whiz
Scott - Defensive Whiz?
Wetherholt - TBD


If Wetherholt can become the player I believe he can, then we will probably need 2 "aircraft carriers" to go with him, plus 2 more solid hitters.

Seems about right.
I still think D guys need to be average hitters. With their other attributes, they will score runs.
If the page gets turned on Walker in RF, I'd not have much hesitation with IH/AB taking 2 of those
spots and provide a certain amount of certainty in those. 4 corners + the DH.

[ramfandan]

Help is on the way for 1st & 3rd power hitters plus OF's too in Bloom's rebuild.
He addressed some pitching in his first moves and acquired added selections for upcoming draft.

Bloom selects 13th in this draft. Usually in drafts, the premier pitchers get taken off the board early allowing some top notch position hitters to be on the board. Look for Bloom to get a big bat type guy with 13th pick followed by more positon guys with several of the multiple picks in the top 80.
Would not be surprised if one of his high picks may be a HS player with elite upside .

[Cardinals4Life]

Help is on the way for 1st & 3rd power hitters plus OF's too in Bloom's rebuild.
He addressed some pitching in his first moves and acquired added selections for upcoming draft.

Bloom selects 13th in this draft. Usually in drafts, the premier pitchers get taken off the board early allowing some top notch position hitters to be on the board. Look for Bloom to get a big bat type guy with 13th pick followed by more positon guys with several of the multiple picks in the top 80.
Would not be surprised if one of his high picks may be a HS player with elite upside .

Please no more HS guys with higher upside. Get the guys that are proven and don't take 5 years to make it, if they ever do.

[Carp4Cy]

Help is on the way for 1st & 3rd power hitters plus OF's too in Bloom's rebuild.
He addressed some pitching in his first moves and acquired added selections for upcoming draft.

Bloom selects 13th in this draft. Usually in drafts, the premier pitchers get taken off the board early allowing some top notch position hitters to be on the board. Look for Bloom to get a big bat type guy with 13th pick followed by more positon guys with several of the multiple picks in the top 80.
Would not be surprised if one of his high picks may be a HS player with elite upside .

Kurtz was taken 4th. That is the type corner we need. At a minimum

[okcardfan]

Help is on the way for 1st & 3rd power hitters plus OF's too in Bloom's rebuild.
He addressed some pitching in his first moves and acquired added selections for upcoming draft.

Bloom selects 13th in this draft. Usually in drafts, the premier pitchers get taken off the board early allowing some top notch position hitters to be on the board. Look for Bloom to get a big bat type guy with 13th pick followed by more positon guys with several of the multiple picks in the top 80.
Would not be surprised if one of his high picks may be a HS player with elite upside .

Please no more HS guys with higher upside. Get the guys that are proven and don't take 5 years to make it, if they ever do.

Absolutely right, no more draftees who haven't had some post-highschool. The draft is enough of a crapshoot as it is. Even one year in college is hardly enough to get a good reading on a guy. Why waste the pick on a total unknown, and the Cards have done that too much in the past. Just because a guy is a great athlete doesn't mean he can play baseball worth (bleep).

[IndCard75]

No doubt, you add Judge and Belli to this team and all of a sudden we have a very good line up with weak 1B/3b.

Noot LF
Judge RF
Belli CF
Herrera DH
Burly 1B
Gorman 3B
Winn SS
JW 2B
Pages C

[sikeston bulldog2]

No doubt, you add Judge and Belli to this team and all of a sudden we have a very good line up with weak 1B/3b.

Noot LF
Judge RF
Belli CF
Herrera DH
Burly 1B
Gorman 3B
Winn SS
JW 2B
Pages C

I think the key to the corners is simultaneous playing together. Too often it’s a strong one side and weak other. Then it seems fragmented.

Boog Powell- Brooks Robinson.
Pujols- Rolen
Lee May- Tony Perez??
Hernandez-Oberkfel
Clark/Pendleton.

[2ninr]

Help is on the way for 1st & 3rd power hitters plus OF's too in Bloom's rebuild.
He addressed some pitching in his first moves and acquired added selections for upcoming draft.

Bloom selects 13th in this draft. Usually in drafts, the premier pitchers get taken off the board early allowing some top notch position hitters to be on the board. Look for Bloom to get a big bat type guy with 13th pick followed by more positon guys with several of the multiple picks in the top 80.
Would not be surprised if one of his high picks may be a HS player with elite upside .

Please no more HS guys with higher upside. Get the guys that are proven and don't take 5 years to make it, if they ever do.

Absolutely right, no more draftees who haven't had some post-highschool. The draft is enough of a crapshoot as it is. Even one year in college is hardly enough to get a good reading on a guy. Why waste the pick on a total unknown, and the Cards have done that too much in the past. Just because a guy is a great athlete doesn't mean he can play baseball worth (bleep).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^