Joe Roderick gives Sunday ST report: Herrera, Stanek, JJ

[Cardinals1964]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G88SRhJ2fbc

The report on IH was not glowing. Sounds like even he is not satisfied with his throwing. But early.

I sort of laugh when they talk about Yadi coming in for a day. He ain’t fixing IH in a day.

Or a week.
Or a month.
Or a year.
Or a decade.

Can Gorman or Walker be fixed in that amount of time ?

Herrera can never be an adequate MLB catcher from the perspective of defense.
Not going to happen - pitchers will simply not permit it.
Maybe a DH, or LF, or 1B - if he can prove the brief power surge in September was not a fluke.
Gorman can be "fixed" by hitting 2 more singles in every 100 PA's.
Walker probably needs to be traded to a different organization - the current staff broke his game and is therefore likely incompetent to help him.

Betting on the wrong horse Mel.

I never bet on any player.
Never for any player.
Never against any player.
My analysis is always free of agenda and free of bias.
And is correct over 95% of the time.

[nonsense]

[Cardinals1964]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G88SRhJ2fbc

The report on IH was not glowing. Sounds like even he is not satisfied with his throwing. But early.

I sort of laugh when they talk about Yadi coming in for a day. He ain’t fixing IH in a day.

Or a week.
Or a month.
Or a year.
Or a decade.

Can Gorman or Walker be fixed in that amount of time ?

Herrera can never be an adequate MLB catcher from the perspective of defense.
Not going to happen - pitchers will simply not permit it.
Maybe a DH, or LF, or 1B - if he can prove the brief power surge in September was not a fluke.
Gorman can be "fixed" by hitting 2 more singles in every 100 PA's.
Walker probably needs to be traded to a different organization - the current staff broke his game and is therefore likely incompetent to help him.

Mel,

While usually right, you are wrong on Herrera.

He’s not usually right. He says he’s usually right. I said that first, years ago without bias or personal gain. EVERYBODY knows I’m right.

[Adam2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G88SRhJ2fbc

The report on IH was not glowing. Sounds like even he is not satisfied with his throwing. But early.

I sort of laugh when they talk about Yadi coming in for a day. He ain’t fixing IH in a day.

Or a week.
Or a month.
Or a year.
Or a decade.

Correct,

you fix throwing issues when your body is forming in childhood. At this level as far as throwing goes, you are what you are. If you "throw like a girl" when you're growing up, your body is not going to change that form much when you're developed

[Melville]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G88SRhJ2fbc

The report on IH was not glowing. Sounds like even he is not satisfied with his throwing. But early.

I sort of laugh when they talk about Yadi coming in for a day. He ain’t fixing IH in a day.

Or a week.
Or a month.
Or a year.
Or a decade.

Can Gorman or Walker be fixed in that amount of time ?

Herrera can never be an adequate MLB catcher from the perspective of defense.
Not going to happen - pitchers will simply not permit it.
Maybe a DH, or LF, or 1B - if he can prove the brief power surge in September was not a fluke.
Gorman can be "fixed" by hitting 2 more singles in every 100 PA's.
Walker probably needs to be traded to a different organization - the current staff broke his game and is therefore likely incompetent to help him.

Betting on the wrong horse Mel.

I never bet on any player.
Never for any player.
Never against any player.
My analysis is always free of agenda and free of bias.
And is correct over 95% of the time.

[nonsense]

Is that shorthand for whatever perspective you intended to share?
Being kind and gracious to a fault, I am interested in whatever you have to share on the topic at hand.
Feel invited to elucidate concerning Herrera.

[Melville]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G88SRhJ2fbc

The report on IH was not glowing. Sounds like even he is not satisfied with his throwing. But early.

I sort of laugh when they talk about Yadi coming in for a day. He ain’t fixing IH in a day.

Or a week.
Or a month.
Or a year.
Or a decade.

Correct,

you fix throwing issues when your body is forming in childhood. At this level as far as throwing goes, you are what you are. If you "throw like a girl" when you're growing up, your body is not going to change that form much when you're developed

It is not just the arm.
He lacks the hands necessary for the role as well.

[rockondlouie]

The sooner they realize Ivan couldn't throw out 71 year old Ozzie if he was on first and stealing, the better.

He either picks up that OF'ers glove and learns to play LF or he's destined to be a F-T DH.

My money's on "F-T DH".

[Rocket Scientist]

IH VRS NG on defense....painful to find out which is better. Kinda like a midget measuring contest to see which is taller.

[renostl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G88SRhJ2fbc

The report on IH was not glowing. Sounds like even he is not satisfied with his throwing. But early.

I sort of laugh when they talk about Yadi coming in for a day. He ain’t fixing IH in a day.

Or a week.
Or a month.
Or a year.
Or a decade.

Can Gorman or Walker be fixed in that amount of time ?

Herrera can never be an adequate MLB catcher from the perspective of defense.
Not going to happen - pitchers will simply not permit it.
Maybe a DH, or LF, or 1B - if he can prove the brief power surge in September was not a fluke.
Gorman can be "fixed" by hitting 2 more singles in every 100 PA's.
Walker probably needs to be traded to a different organization - the current staff broke his game and is therefore likely incompetent to help him.

Mel,

While usually right, you are wrong on Herrera.

Apparently, the Cards have a speed gun on the catchers’ throws in Jupiter this spring. Joe Roderick said that IH’s throws were significantly slower speed than the other catchers. He even asked if the gun was calibrated correctly.

Bloom is giving IH a courtesy look at C this spring. I don’t think it will end with IH starting 80+ games at C this year. He just can’t keep up with a running team.

I didn't notice in the video where he was compared to other catchers or the description
significantly slower. The video was comments were vague imo.
The results were obviously less than IH expected but what that means and to what
extent it was less was not said.

The range in speed that catchers are throw at isn't that wide or is it the complete picture.
According to Statcast IH has thrown at 79.1 mph back a couple seasons ago.

Top 20 in the league was 80.7. Pages was one of the catchers to throw 80.7 mph, Pozo 78.8.
85.3 mph was tops by Dingler. Notable catchers-- Kirk, Smith, William Contreras were all in the 79's.
Salvador Perez 77.1, Wells 77.9, Narvaez 76.8. The long of it the narrow range along with the MPH
isn't a complete picture and does not necessarily correlate with CS above average.

The report would be more informative if it gave the numbers that they were disappointed in seeing.

IH doesn't have to be a primary catcher and may never be one with the Cards depth there. It's a better
roster though if there's not 3 catchers and multiple slow guys on it.

[icon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G88SRhJ2fbc

The report on IH was not glowing. Sounds like even he is not satisfied with his throwing. But early.

I sort of laugh when they talk about Yadi coming in for a day. He ain’t fixing IH in a day.

Or a week.
Or a month.
Or a year.
Or a decade.

Can Gorman or Walker be fixed in that amount of time ?

Herrera can never be an adequate MLB catcher from the perspective of defense.
Not going to happen - pitchers will simply not permit it.
Maybe a DH, or LF, or 1B - if he can prove the brief power surge in September was not a fluke.
Gorman can be "fixed" by hitting 2 more singles in every 100 PA's.
Walker probably needs to be traded to a different organization - the current staff broke his game and is therefore likely incompetent to help him.

That would make Gorman arguably serviceable I suppose. But it doesn’t replace even half of Nado circa 2022. And that’s what we need to get back to the playoffs. And Gorman will never begin to replace Nado/Rolens defense.

Power hitting 3B's with elite defense such as N/A and Rolen come along less than once in a generation in all of MLB.
No one should ever lay that expectation on anyone else.
All Gorman needs to do is hit is hit .235-.240 with an .320 OBP (2 more singles per 100 PA's), and with his 25+HR/80+ RBI proven track record, he would be a top 5 MLB 3B, with roughly average defense.
Not that far away.
As for Herrera, the best thing STL can do is get him out from behind the plate and see if he can become more consistent with his power production - which has been nearly non-existent prior to last September.
Reality is, if STL can achieve that with those 2, have Winn and Burleson consistently repeat last year, and have Wetherholt prove to be a breakout star, they will be well on their way to returning to success.
It is not as far away as many think it is.

What happened to Gorman the Unicorn? How expectations have fallen.

[scoutyjones2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G88SRhJ2fbc

The report on IH was not glowing. Sounds like even he is not satisfied with his throwing. But early.

I sort of laugh when they talk about Yadi coming in for a day. He ain’t fixing IH in a day.

Maybe. Maybe not. But you absolutely make an effort because if he can catch, the team is much better for much longer. Unless, of course, you think Pages is an All Star.

Wait, Ivan as an all star at catcher?

[scoutyjones2]

I believe most of his errors at third last year were throwing errors. He has a cannon for a throwing arm. I believe he improved when told to not rush his throw and concentrate on accuracy. He is no Rolen or Arenado defensively but he’s not a poor defensive player. He was more than adequate at second. If he can hit 30+ homers and drive in 80+ runs we will be fine. He simply has to stop fixating on pulling the ball. Try to hit it up the middle. If he’s early he will pull it if he’s late he will go the other way. He can hit it out anywhere on the field. He needs to become a hitter instead of a slugger.

You believe?


LoL. Did you watch? Did you look up stats?

[scoutyjones2]

I believe most of his errors at third last year were throwing errors. He has a cannon for a throwing arm. I believe he improved when told to not rush his throw and concentrate on accuracy. He is no Rolen or Arenado defensively but he’s not a poor defensive player. He was more than adequate at second. If he can hit 30+ homers and drive in 80+ runs we will be fine. He simply has to stop fixating on pulling the ball. Try to hit it up the middle. If he’s early he will pull it if he’s late he will go the other way. He can hit it out anywhere on the field. He needs to become a hitter instead of a slugger.

Correct.
Gorman's 3b issues were all about the throws - and that was quickly correct after the first couple of weeks.
Guess who had zero glove errors at 3b last year?
Gorman, not N/A.
Guess who was better at turning 3rd-to 2nd-to 1st double plays last year?
Gorman, not N/A.
Obviously, N/A had better range.
But Gorman, who made himself into a solid if unspectacular glove at 2b, is a much better defender than most realize.
Returning to the actual topic at hand, Gorman is certainly more acceptable defensively at 3b than Herrera is at catcher.

That's some funny [shirt]. He had more errors than Nado...he's a horrific 3b. No range, negative OAA...overall, to his left, to his right. Hell, even walking up to the on deck circle!

Thanks for making my day

I'll give you kudos because you have Ivan properly sussed

[Strummer Jones]

I'm not against Herrera being (mostly) a DH at all. Guy can hit. He can be our Brent Rooker. Pop around 30 home runs, hit around .260.

Short of a fountain of youth David Ortiz walking through the door, you're not going to do much better at DH nowadays. I'd like to hope Herrera could play the field some, but if DH is how his bat gets into the line-up...so be it.

[ICCFIM2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G88SRhJ2fbc

The report on IH was not glowing. Sounds like even he is not satisfied with his throwing. But early.

I sort of laugh when they talk about Yadi coming in for a day. He ain’t fixing IH in a day.

Or a week.
Or a month.
Or a year.
Or a decade.

Can Gorman or Walker be fixed in that amount of time ?

Herrera can never be an adequate MLB catcher from the perspective of defense.
Not going to happen - pitchers will simply not permit it.
Maybe a DH, or LF, or 1B - if he can prove the brief power surge in September was not a fluke.
Gorman can be "fixed" by hitting 2 more singles in every 100 PA's.
Walker probably needs to be traded to a different organization - the current staff broke his game and is therefore likely incompetent to help him.

That would make Gorman arguably serviceable I suppose. But it doesn’t replace even half of Nado circa 2022. And that’s what we need to get back to the playoffs. And Gorman will never begin to replace Nado/Rolens defense.

Power hitting 3B's with elite defense such as N/A and Rolen come along less than once in a generation in all of MLB.
No one should ever lay that expectation on anyone else.
All Gorman needs to do is hit is hit .235-.240 with an .320 OBP (2 more singles per 100 PA's), and with his 25+HR/80+ RBI proven track record, he would be a top 5 MLB 3B, with roughly average defense.
Not that far away.
As for Herrera, the best thing STL can do is get him out from behind the plate and see if he can become more consistent with his power production - which has been nearly non-existent prior to last September.
Reality is, if STL can achieve that with those 2, have Winn and Burleson consistently repeat last year, and have Wetherholt prove to be a breakout star, they will be well on their way to returning to success.
It is not as far away as many think it is.

Also we’ve had two Hall of Fame caliber third base plus one World Series MVP this century. And we’ve had three elite first baseman winning multiple MVPs in the last 30 years.

None of those guys needed just two or three more hits per hundred at bats to raise their average to a respectable level. They had talent, they worked hard, they used it, They got results. No if onlys needed. And Only one of those guys was actually drafted by the Cardinals, however. Maybe we need to raise our expectations at elite critical positions and make the right trades for the right elite talent instead of just wishing the guy we had was good enough. We are the St. Louis Cardinals after all.

Correct. 3B is going to have to be a position we make a trade for from the outside, which is sad because at one time we had "too many" 3Bs in the system (Mendoza, Montero, Walker, Gorman, etc.)

The Cards picked up Jesus Baez from the Mets last year who rates a bit above average defensively at 3B. Whether he can hit or not is an open question. So there is one more guy in the system we have not yet seen yet. I assume he starts the year at AA this year? Unless he has a massive break out, his ETA is probably 2028.

We traded Montero for Arenado, Walker never was rated to stick defensively at 3B and the Arenado trade pushed Gorman off of 3B. Gorman looked awful the first couple of weeks at 3B after Arenado was hurt. But, he settled down after that. Whether he will be adequeate there defensively or not, hard to say. Gormans biggest issue looking at Fangraphs is his contact rate. It is below 80% for balls in the zone and really bad for balls outside the zone. While your right we had a lot of 3B prospects, the Arenado trade changed that trajectory. Arenado's decline was both early and precipitous, which changed the trajectory of this team for the worse quickly. Not all his fault. But an 825 Arenado batting clean-up last year or in 2024 makes both those teams look a lot different.

[BrockFloodMaris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G88SRhJ2fbc

The report on IH was not glowing. Sounds like even he is not satisfied with his throwing. But early.

I sort of laugh when they talk about Yadi coming in for a day. He ain’t fixing IH in a day.

Or a week.
Or a month.
Or a year.
Or a decade.

Can Gorman or Walker be fixed in that amount of time ?

Herrera can never be an adequate MLB catcher from the perspective of defense.
Not going to happen - pitchers will simply not permit it.
Maybe a DH, or LF, or 1B - if he can prove the brief power surge in September was not a fluke.
Gorman can be "fixed" by hitting 2 more singles in every 100 PA's.
Walker probably needs to be traded to a different organization - the current staff broke his game and is therefore likely incompetent to help him.

Mel,

While usually right, you are wrong on Herrera.

Apparently, the Cards have a speed gun on the catchers’ throws in Jupiter this spring. Joe Roderick said that IH’s throws were significantly slower speed than the other catchers. He even asked if the gun was calibrated correctly.

Bloom is giving IH a courtesy look at C this spring. I don’t think it will end with IH starting 80+ games at C this year. He just can’t keep up with a running team.

I didn't notice in the video where he was compared to other catchers or the description
significantly slower. The video was comments were vague imo.
The results were obviously less than IH expected but what that means and to what
extent it was less was not said.

The range in speed that catchers are throw at isn't that wide or is it the complete picture.
According to Statcast IH has thrown at 79.1 mph back a couple seasons ago.

Top 20 in the league was 80.7. Pages was one of the catchers to throw 80.7 mph, Pozo 78.8.
85.3 mph was tops by Dingler. Notable catchers-- Kirk, Smith, William Contreras were all in the 79's.
Salvador Perez 77.1, Wells 77.9, Narvaez 76.8. The long of it the narrow range along with the MPH
isn't a complete picture and does not necessarily correlate with CS above average.

The report would be more informative if it gave the numbers that they were disappointed in seeing.

IH doesn't have to be a primary catcher and may never be one with the Cards depth there. It's a better
roster though if there's not 3 catchers and multiple slow guys on it.

I’m not rooting against the guy. I’m just repeating what Joe Roderick said in the podcast.

[renostl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G88SRhJ2fbc

The report on IH was not glowing. Sounds like even he is not satisfied with his throwing. But early.

I sort of laugh when they talk about Yadi coming in for a day. He ain’t fixing IH in a day.

Or a week.
Or a month.
Or a year.
Or a decade.

Can Gorman or Walker be fixed in that amount of time ?

Herrera can never be an adequate MLB catcher from the perspective of defense.
Not going to happen - pitchers will simply not permit it.
Maybe a DH, or LF, or 1B - if he can prove the brief power surge in September was not a fluke.
Gorman can be "fixed" by hitting 2 more singles in every 100 PA's.
Walker probably needs to be traded to a different organization - the current staff broke his game and is therefore likely incompetent to help him.

Mel,

While usually right, you are wrong on Herrera.

Apparently, the Cards have a speed gun on the catchers’ throws in Jupiter this spring. Joe Roderick said that IH’s throws were significantly slower speed than the other catchers. He even asked if the gun was calibrated correctly.

Bloom is giving IH a courtesy look at C this spring. I don’t think it will end with IH starting 80+ games at C this year. He just can’t keep up with a running team.

I didn't notice in the video where he was compared to other catchers or the description
significantly slower. The video was comments were vague imo.
The results were obviously less than IH expected but what that means and to what
extent it was less was not said.

The range in speed that catchers are throw at isn't that wide or is it the complete picture.
According to Statcast IH has thrown at 79.1 mph back a couple seasons ago.

Top 20 in the league was 80.7. Pages was one of the catchers to throw 80.7 mph, Pozo 78.8.
85.3 mph was tops by Dingler. Notable catchers-- Kirk, Smith, William Contreras were all in the 79's.
Salvador Perez 77.1, Wells 77.9, Narvaez 76.8. The long of it the narrow range along with the MPH
isn't a complete picture and does not necessarily correlate with CS above average.

The report would be more informative if it gave the numbers that they were disappointed in seeing.

IH doesn't have to be a primary catcher and may never be one with the Cards depth there. It's a better
roster though if there's not 3 catchers and multiple slow guys on it.

I’m not rooting against the guy. I’m just repeating what Joe Roderick said in the podcast.

You didn't mention a single thing to suggest that you were rooting against him.

I just suggested that he doesn't need to be a primary catcher and we didn't get
much information as why IH may have been disappointed in the readings.