The Morning After

[Talkin' Baseball]

Bloom needed to come away with either Montes or Arroyo in addition to Cijntje.

I liked Montes a lot a year ago, but the more I observed the more wary I became. If we don't like Nolan Gorman, we wouldn't like Laz Montes. If we don't like Tai Peete, we won't like Laz Montes. Montes has monstrous power and he may not connect enough for it to matter. He can't field a position. Any position. He's a DH. At least Peete has crazy-good athleticism. He's a good defender at a premium position and a good baserunner. Arroyo would have been a good add.

[Cardinals4Life]

My observations the morning after the trade:

- I don't plan to say this again, but I was disappointed in the return. I know Donovan is not a superstar, but as an approach I wanted quality over quantity. That didn't happen.

- While gleaning the Mariners farm system over a year ago, I was impressed. I thought there was a lot to work with there, but my thoughts as far as trading with them were, "Anyone but Tai Peete".

- In another thread I was critical of the Cardinals for not dealing with their "clunky" roster- particularly their abundance of middle infielders and left-handed hitters. They did that here.

- Trading Donovan was the right thing to do, but it does leave the roster noticeably thinner.

- In just about any scouting report you look at they will say that Tai Peete has a lot of K's in his game. To date the k's in his game are his defining trait.

- Perhaps this front office knows what they are doing and can help him. If they can consistently put players like Peete back on the rails, that's a true weapon- much like Duncan used to do for the Cardinals. They're going to get the chance to try.

- I wonder if Colton Ledbetter will ever make it to the majors.

- The two comp picks are more than two players at the front part of the draft, it's also slot money. The extra slot money opens up a whole Pandora's box of good possibilities with the draft strategy this year.

- With the trading of Donovan, does Burleson become the Cardinals most valuable trade chip? (Assuming Winn, Wetherholt, and Herrera aren't available)

TB,

I was disappointed at first too, until I started digging in. I think JC will be a rotation guy for us early as 2027 or 2028. I think he is going to be good.

Peete has a lot of tools and is very young still. I think the upside there is really high and he will need 2 or 3 more seasons to really see what we have in him.

Ledbetter was highly regarded a couple years ago, so I have to think he might be more than a throw in/depth, as many are calling him.

I think the biggest steal, though, might be the TWO extra draft picks!!! Yes, picks are always c r a p shoots, but I like having 2 extra ones so high in the draft and so close to each other. This might have been the steal of the trade.

[Hoosier59]

None us will know whether it was a good trade or a bad trade for a few years

Given Donny isn't a star player I thought the return was as expected.

No way Donny was bringing back a Top 50 MLB prospect.

I'm happy w/the haul we got, time will tell if any of them pays off.

You are mostly correct, however, could Jo Jo or one of our young lefties, or simply another player been added to the deal in order to be able to acquire a Top 50 prospect. We don’t know how the talks went, or who were or were not available. It just seems like Bloom is trying to add as many lottery tickets as he can get, knowing full well that most of them won’t amount to much. The aggravating part for me is the amount of years this rebuild is going to take! One would think that DeWitt would really like to stand on the podium accepting the Championship trophy one more time before he goes! Sure, the odds aren’t in his favor no matter what he does, but he isn’t even willing to try. Doesnt he know he can’t take one penny with him when he goes?

[Talkin' Baseball]

My observations the morning after the trade:

- I don't plan to say this again, but I was disappointed in the return. I know Donovan is not a superstar, but as an approach I wanted quality over quantity. That didn't happen.

- While gleaning the Mariners farm system over a year ago, I was impressed. I thought there was a lot to work with there, but my thoughts as far as trading with them were, "Anyone but Tai Peete".

- In another thread I was critical of the Cardinals for not dealing with their "clunky" roster- particularly their abundance of middle infielders and left-handed hitters. They did that here.

- Trading Donovan was the right thing to do, but it does leave the roster noticeably thinner.

- In just about any scouting report you look at they will say that Tai Peete has a lot of K's in his game. To date the k's in his game are his defining trait.

- Perhaps this front office knows what they are doing and can help him. If they can consistently put players like Peete back on the rails, that's a true weapon- much like Duncan used to do for the Cardinals. They're going to get the chance to try.

- I wonder if Colton Ledbetter will ever make it to the majors.

- The two comp picks are more than two players at the front part of the draft, it's also slot money. The extra slot money opens up a whole Pandora's box of good possibilities with the draft strategy this year.

- With the trading of Donovan, does Burleson become the Cardinals most valuable trade chip? (Assuming Winn, Wetherholt, and Herrera aren't available)

TB,

I was disappointed at first too, until I started digging in. I think JC will be a rotation guy for us early as 2027 or 2028. I think he is going to be good.

Peete has a lot of tools and is very young still. I think the upside there is really high and he will need 2 or 3 more seasons to really see what we have in him.

Ledbetter was highly regarded a couple years ago, so I have to think he might be more than a throw in/depth, as many are calling him.

I think the biggest steal, though, might be the TWO extra draft picks!!! Yes, picks are always c r a p shoots, but I like having 2 extra ones so high in the draft and so close to each other. This might have been the steal of the trade.

Agree with you on Cijntje. I too, think he will be in the rotation next year.

On the draft picks, it's not even so much who you get with the picks (though that could be good), it's the creativity you can use with selecting high level talent that might have signability concerns. Having money to spend helps. Who knew?

[Cusecards]

Bloom needed to come away with either Montes or Arroyo in addition to Cijntje.

I liked Montes a lot a year ago, but the more I observed the more wary I became. If we don't like Nolan Gorman, we wouldn't like Laz Montes. If we don't like Tai Peete, we won't like Laz Montes. Montes has monstrous power and he may not connect enough for it to matter. He can't field a position. Any position. He's a DH. At least Peete has crazy-good athleticism. He's a good defender at a premium position and a good baserunner. Arroyo would have been a good add.

Good points about Peete!
He does seem to have more “tools” and higher athleticism?
Raw power is always intriguing but let’s face it....MLB history is filled with raw power prospects who did not pan out.
All teams have their examples. Our latest one is Gorman who may be facing his final chance??
Time will tell if they can achieve plate discipline?

[rockondlouie]

None us will know whether it was a good trade or a bad trade for a few years

Given Donny isn't a star player I thought the return was as expected.

No way Donny was bringing back a Top 50 MLB prospect.

I'm happy w/the haul we got, time will tell if any of them pays off.

You are mostly correct, however, could Jo Jo or one of our young lefties, or simply another player been added to the deal in order to be able to acquire a Top 50 prospect. We don’t know how the talks went, or who were or were not available. It just seems like Bloom is trying to add as many lottery tickets as he can get, knowing full well that most of them won’t amount to much. The aggravating part for me is the amount of years this rebuild is going to take! One would think that DeWitt would really like to stand on the podium accepting the Championship trophy one more time before he goes! Sure, the odds aren’t in his favor no matter what he does, but he isn’t even willing to try. Doesnt he know he can’t take one penny with him when he goes?

I too thought we might see a Donny + JoJo pairing, still not sure that would've added much value and certainly wouldn't have resulted in us getting a Top 50 prospect (you want that, then you're dealing M. Winn).

Given the trade pieces he had to work with (Gray/WillyC/NADO were salary dumps but brought back some decent pieces) I didn't expect much more for Donny other than one or two solid prospect (and they are our systems #4 and #15 prospects which are better than lotto tickets).

Agree the re-build is going to take time and that does suck.

But this is the mess BDWJr/Mo created, now Bloom gets the tough job of cleaning it up.

My hope hoosier is after the new CBA is in place Dewitt let's Bloom hire his own Manager and increases the payroll significantly to allow him to add major league talent pieces.

[Cardinals4Life]

My observations the morning after the trade:

- I don't plan to say this again, but I was disappointed in the return. I know Donovan is not a superstar, but as an approach I wanted quality over quantity. That didn't happen.

- While gleaning the Mariners farm system over a year ago, I was impressed. I thought there was a lot to work with there, but my thoughts as far as trading with them were, "Anyone but Tai Peete".

- In another thread I was critical of the Cardinals for not dealing with their "clunky" roster- particularly their abundance of middle infielders and left-handed hitters. They did that here.

- Trading Donovan was the right thing to do, but it does leave the roster noticeably thinner.

- In just about any scouting report you look at they will say that Tai Peete has a lot of K's in his game. To date the k's in his game are his defining trait.

- Perhaps this front office knows what they are doing and can help him. If they can consistently put players like Peete back on the rails, that's a true weapon- much like Duncan used to do for the Cardinals. They're going to get the chance to try.

- I wonder if Colton Ledbetter will ever make it to the majors.

- The two comp picks are more than two players at the front part of the draft, it's also slot money. The extra slot money opens up a whole Pandora's box of good possibilities with the draft strategy this year.

- With the trading of Donovan, does Burleson become the Cardinals most valuable trade chip? (Assuming Winn, Wetherholt, and Herrera aren't available)

TB,

I was disappointed at first too, until I started digging in. I think JC will be a rotation guy for us early as 2027 or 2028. I think he is going to be good.

Peete has a lot of tools and is very young still. I think the upside there is really high and he will need 2 or 3 more seasons to really see what we have in him.

Ledbetter was highly regarded a couple years ago, so I have to think he might be more than a throw in/depth, as many are calling him.

I think the biggest steal, though, might be the TWO extra draft picks!!! Yes, picks are always c r a p shoots, but I like having 2 extra ones so high in the draft and so close to each other. This might have been the steal of the trade.

Agree with you on Cijntje. I too, think he will be in the rotation next year.

On the draft picks, it's not even so much who you get with the picks (though that could be good), it's the creativity you can use with selecting high level talent that might have signability concerns. Having money to spend helps. Who knew?

Yeah. The slot$ will be a big plus!!

[TopofthePerch]

I agree with the idea that I also thought they would prioritize quality over quantity in prospects coming back for Donovan.

However, if they have identified multiple guys who they believe they can help reach their potential, this will be more impactful over the long run.

This FO simply has to be better at identifying, acquiring, and developing prospects. So this is their chance to show it.

I think the thing that we're starting to see is prospects are valued like gold in today's landscape. I believe only three prospects rated higher than Jurrangelo Cijntje have been traded this off-season. So from that standpoint I just don't think it was going to be realistic. I think that's what they were shooting for but weren't going to get it.

[Talkin' Baseball]

I agree with the idea that I also thought they would prioritize quality over quantity in prospects coming back for Donovan.

However, if they have identified multiple guys who they believe they can help reach their potential, this will be more impactful over the long run.

This FO simply has to be better at identifying, acquiring, and developing prospects. So this is their chance to show it.

I think the thing that we're starting to see is prospects are valued like gold in today's landscape. I believe only three prospects rated higher than Jurrangelo Cijntje have been traded this off-season. So from that standpoint I just don't think it was going to be realistic. I think that's what they were shooting for but weren't going to get it.

We need to remember that when the Cardinals move into another phase and are interesting in adding major league players. You don't have to trade your top 5 prospects to do it. You can trade a package like Seattle did to get your future "Donovan".

[Ronnie Dobbs]

I’ve been thinking about our sudden starting pitching depth that we have now. Some good depth with not much upside at the MLB level. A trio of high upside guys in LHPs Doyle and Clarke and RHP Cijntje. Quinn Mathews on the cusp. A lot more back of the rotation depth that aren’t too far off like Ixan Henderson and Brycen Mautz. Some pretty good upside, but always injured, yet hopefully will get healthy guys like Roby and Hjerpe. And some further down the road, but could have some good upside like Fajardo, Dohm, Chen-Wei Lin, and Tanner Franklin.

Pretty solid.

[Talkin' Baseball]

I’ve been thinking about our sudden starting pitching depth that we have now. Some good depth with not much upside at the MLB level. A trio of high upside guys in LHPs Doyle and Clarke and RHP Cijntje. Quinn Mathews on the cusp. A lot more back of the rotation depth that aren’t too far off like Ixan Henderson and Brycen Mautz. Some pretty good upside, but always injured, yet hopefully will get healthy guys like Roby and Hjerpe. And some further down the road, but could have some good upside like Fajardo, Dohm, Chen-Wei Lin, and Tanner Franklin.

Pretty solid.

Two names in the lower minors to watch this year- Tyler Van Dyke and Andrew Dutkanych IV. I'm especially hopeful for the latter.

[Cusecards]

I’ve been thinking about our sudden starting pitching depth that we have now. Some good depth with not much upside at the MLB level. A trio of high upside guys in LHPs Doyle and Clarke and RHP Cijntje. Quinn Mathews on the cusp. A lot more back of the rotation depth that aren’t too far off like Ixan Henderson and Brycen Mautz. Some pretty good upside, but always injured, yet hopefully will get healthy guys like Roby and Hjerpe. And some further down the road, but could have some good upside like Fajardo, Dohm, Chen-Wei Lin, and Tanner Franklin.

Pretty solid.

Good summary.
I guess Dobbins and Fitts are up first?

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Two names in the lower minors to watch this year- Tyler Van Dyke and Andrew Dutkanych IV. I'm especially hopeful for the latter.

Yes, totally forgot to mention Dutkanych. I’m pretty excited to see what he can do this year.

[Bushiro]

None us will know whether it was a good trade or a bad trade for a few years

Given Donny isn't a star player I thought the return was as expected.

No way Donny was bringing back a Top 50 MLB prospect.

I'm happy w/the haul we got, time will tell if any of them pays off.

Seattle gave up their number 4 and mlbs number 42 overall for a relief pitcher

[bfib]

I agree with the idea that I also thought they would prioritize quality over quantity in prospects coming back for Donovan.

However, if they have identified multiple guys who they believe they can help reach their potential, this will be more impactful over the long run.

This FO simply has to be better at identifying, acquiring, and developing prospects. So this is their chance to show it.

I refrained from commenting too much about this trade last night, as I wanted to fully assess it. I’ve made no secrete that I didn’t want Donovan traded in the first place. As Nighthawk stated in his post, Donovan represented everything that a Cardinal should be. If you haven’t read his post, I recommend you do so.
I fully understand that Donovan is no superstar, but so many people overlook players like him, simply because he doesn’t hit a ton of home runs. Brendan does so many other things well, intangible things that the casual fan will not even see. Oh well, he’s gone, and I’ll be rooting for the Mariners to reach the World Series from the American League, and still be a die hard Cardinal fan!
Now to the trade return. This is exactly as I feared. Absolutely no standout player coming back, or at least none are sure things. As has been pointed out quantity not necessarily quality! I know Crav, as well as others, are drooling over the additional draft picks. The draft will be fun, but as we’ve seen sooo many times, these players often don’t pan out. Will Bloom’s group be better at it than MO’s were, I guess we are going to find out. Let’s hope so!
What this trade does show, and I think everyone should agree. It’s going to be several years before the Cardinals are relevant again.
Even if these draft picks and low A players acquired pan out, they are years away from making it to St. Louis. As the Cardinals currently stand, they now have one of the lowest payrolls in baseball. Unless DeWitt changes his spots, he’s not going to suddenly start spending the millions of dollars that it would take to make this team a World Series threat anytime soon! I can’t foresee them being really good before the 2030’s. Hope I’m wrong for my Grandkids’ sakes, and all the other young fans out there that very well could lose interest in that length of time.

FWIW - there are a number of sources that have opined that Cijntje has #2 SP upside if he focuses on pitching RH and can put it all together.

He is high variance but has the high ceiling the Cardinals need.

I hope he hits that ceiling, we need him to. I just know, that early in the off season, when Donovan trades were first being discussed, and Seattle looked like the best trade partner, nobody really wanted Cijntje unless he was partnered with a higher level prospect, like Montes, or Sloan. His main attraction was his gimmick of being able to pitch with either arm. Nobody thought he would be the headliner. Not even you! Hope the trade pans out for all parties!

That’s because most here were vastly overrating Donovan as a player.

This was a VERY good return for a guy like him.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Good summary.
I guess Dobbins and Fitts are up first?

I would think so. Dobbins is looking like he’s on track to be able to start the season. I would assume the starting five would be May, Liberatore, McGreevy, Fitts, and Dobbins. I wouldn’t rule out Bloom making another move for a starter before the spring either.

You’ve also probably got Pallante and Leahy in the mix. Not sure if they e given up on Graceffo as a starter, but I’ll throw him in there to as a guy who could start if needed.

Not much upside, and will probably get ugly at points, but it should get you through this year.