What is B. Donovan's best defensive position?

[hullie]

Wherever Gorman is playing

[Carp4Cy]

I always thought his best position was second base.

So is Gormans and So is JJWs.

We are a team of MI'ers.

We completely lack a true Rolen GG/Cleanup hitter type for 3b anywhere in our system.

hall of fame 3rd basemen aren't that easy to find

None of our championship rosters have been easy to create. That should still be the goal though. Not just who "isn't bad at 3b, that'll do pig, that'll do."

I understand the kid hasn't done jack at MLB level but he will get a long look
maybe a 3 season trial. It's your comment though that makes me want JJ at the corner.
There only 2 or 3 players putting up those huge 3B numbers.

Rolen is a high bar. His best power numbers were 1997 through 2004. He averaged
27 HR's for those 8 seasons. JJ may totally fail but with success I do not see 25HR's
as unreachable for him. That's top 5 in today's game and where some very large contracts
reside. 2B not as much. TE/BD/Lowe contracts more often.
jmo.

There were 33 players who hit 30 HRs last year. That's actual HRs, not just potential. 7 hit 40+ and 4 hit 50+. Cal hit 60.

We need 2-3 of these in our lineup long term. Not 15-20 HRs and maybe 25 in a good year, but bonafide power hitters. The kind who project at 30+ and can hit 45-50 when the stars align. They DO exist, and are relatively plentiful for other teams. So if not 3b, somewhere else, but at multiple spots. JJW is very much a plus bat at 2b, but a top of the order bat. Its fine to get 15-20 HRs from your leadoff man or #2. But that's not elite MOTO. And Donny is not a MOTO in LF like Holliday etc, Gorman hasn't proven he should even start. We need to get this lineup sorted and still figure out where the power bats are going to play once we do decide to go acquire them.

[ClassicO]

I keep seeing some sites saying if he's not traded B. Donovan will be at 2nd base (most of the time) instead of being at 3rd base or in LF.

Let's look at his career defensive metrics at each of these positions:

2nd Base

-5 career DRS
+5 career OAA

3rd Base

+6 career DRS
+3 career OAA

Leftfield

0 career DRS
-2 career OAA

The data seems to suggest that Donny, should he still be on the team, needs to be at 3rd Base w/JJW at 2nd Base and N. Gorman sharing the DH role and only some times playing 3rd Base.

One issue though is he's played his fewest career innings (269.2) at 3rd Base -vs- 1756.2 at 2nd Base & 1450.1 in the OF.

IF JJW makes the team out of STing (and he d a m n well better), then what position would you play Donny at?

+1.
I've argued he's best at 3b for years and I'd play him there if they can't get a very good return.
The stats you cite support this as do several defensive stats from Baseball-Reference:

3B: He's +9 Total Zone Rating using B-R, and he's a -9 OF and Range Factor is better than league avg (2.66 vs 2.57).
2B: He's below avg. per B-R at -9 Total Zone Rating career, but decent range. Only Statcast's OAA has him as a positive.
OF: He's definitely not an OF. His Baseball-Reference's Total Zone Rating is a -9 OF and Range Factor of 1.87/9 innings compared to league avg. of 2.19 (not good).

[rockondlouie]

I keep seeing some sites saying if he's not traded B. Donovan will be at 2nd base (most of the time) instead of being at 3rd base or in LF.

Let's look at his career defensive metrics at each of these positions:

2nd Base

-5 career DRS
+5 career OAA

3rd Base

+6 career DRS
+3 career OAA

Leftfield

0 career DRS
-2 career OAA

The data seems to suggest that Donny, should he still be on the team, needs to be at 3rd Base w/JJW at 2nd Base and N. Gorman sharing the DH role and only some times playing 3rd Base.

One issue though is he's played his fewest career innings (269.2) at 3rd Base -vs- 1756.2 at 2nd Base & 1450.1 in the OF.

IF JJW makes the team out of STing (and he d a m n well better), then what position would you play Donny at?

+1.
I've argued he's best at 3b for years and I'd play him there if they can't get a very good return.
The stats you cite support this as do several defensive stats from Baseball-Reference:

3B: He's +9 Total Zone Rating using B-R, and he's a -9 OF and Range Factor is better than league avg (2.66 vs 2.57).
2B: He's below avg. per B-R at -9 Total Zone Rating career, but decent range. Only Statcast's OAA has him as a positive.
OF: He's definitely not an OF. His Baseball-Reference's Total Zone Rating is a -9 OF and Range Factor of 1.87/9 innings compared to league avg. of 2.19 (not good).

Pretty obvious to me too CO

No brainer to me...... if he's here Donny's at 3rd base, JJW at 2nd Base and Gorman shares DH duties w/I. Hererra when/if he's not catching (and if Ivan's not going to catch at all, then he's the FT DH w/ Norman at 3rd base--blah--and Donny in LF).

[zuck698]

Donny at 3rd base. Gorman can't out hit his defensive deficiencies at 3rd.

[renostl]

I always thought his best position was second base.

So is Gormans and So is JJWs.

We are a team of MI'ers.

We completely lack a true Rolen GG/Cleanup hitter type for 3b anywhere in our system.

hall of fame 3rd basemen aren't that easy to find

None of our championship rosters have been easy to create. That should still be the goal though. Not just who "isn't bad at 3b, that'll do pig, that'll do."

I understand the kid hasn't done jack at MLB level but he will get a long look
maybe a 3 season trial. It's your comment though that makes me want JJ at the corner.
There only 2 or 3 players putting up those huge 3B numbers.

Rolen is a high bar. His best power numbers were 1997 through 2004. He averaged
27 HR's for those 8 seasons. JJ may totally fail but with success I do not see 25HR's
as unreachable for him. That's top 5 in today's game and where some very large contracts
reside. 2B not as much. TE/BD/Lowe contracts more often.
jmo.

There were 33 players who hit 30 HRs last year. That's actual HRs, not just potential. 7 hit 40+ and 4 hit 50+. Cal hit 60.

We need 2-3 of these in our lineup long term. Not 15-20 HRs and maybe 25 in a good year, but bonafide power hitters. The kind who project at 30+ and can hit 45-50 when the stars align. They DO exist, and are relatively plentiful for other teams. So if not 3b, somewhere else, but at multiple spots. JJW is very much a plus bat at 2b, but a top of the order bat. Its fine to get 15-20 HRs from your leadoff man or #2. But that's not elite MOTO. And Donny is not a MOTO in LF like Holliday etc, Gorman hasn't proven he should even start. We need to get this lineup sorted and still figure out where the power bats are going to play once we do decide to go acquire them.

Not debating that 30 HR guys exist. That would be dumber than my normal.
Most understand the deficit. 3B does need to part of the answer since too many positions
currently are not. Herrera might but I doubt he sticks at C.

We may see the guy differently. True he hasn't done it. Don't know what to say other
than what I stated above.

2- 2B hit 31 HR's in 2025, 3-3B of which only 1 can be considered to wear a glove.
My projection is JJ hits 25 regularly IF and WHEN he figures it out. easily wrong as the 15-20 may be.

He will get a long time at one of those positions. Any additional HR's need to come elsewhere
but yes it does need to happen. Where is that debated. I just don't see why degrade on a probable increase at of
that HR power at either position where 25 HR's is top 5. Arenado or Donovan have less.
Gorman may not stick. Buying either Bregman or 35 y/o Suarez are debatable at best answers too.
At least wouldn't make me happy. Bichette sure, I'd take but he does have his own free will.

[zuck698]

I always thought his best position was second base.

So is Gormans and So is JJWs.

We are a team of MI'ers.

We completely lack a true Rolen GG/Cleanup hitter type for 3b anywhere in our system.

hall of fame 3rd basemen aren't that easy to find

None of our championship rosters have been easy to create. That should still be the goal though. Not just who "isn't bad at 3b, that'll do pig, that'll do."

I understand the kid hasn't done jack at MLB level but he will get a long look
maybe a 3 season trial. It's your comment though that makes me want JJ at the corner.
There only 2 or 3 players putting up those huge 3B numbers.

Rolen is a high bar. His best power numbers were 1997 through 2004. He averaged
27 HR's for those 8 seasons. JJ may totally fail but with success I do not see 25HR's
as unreachable for him. That's top 5 in today's game and where some very large contracts
reside. 2B not as much. TE/BD/Lowe contracts more often.
jmo.

There were 33 players who hit 30 HRs last year. That's actual HRs, not just potential. 7 hit 40+ and 4 hit 50+. Cal hit 60.

We need 2-3 of these in our lineup long term. Not 15-20 HRs and maybe 25 in a good year, but bonafide power hitters. The kind who project at 30+ and can hit 45-50 when the stars align. They DO exist, and are relatively plentiful for other teams. So if not 3b, somewhere else, but at multiple spots. JJW is very much a plus bat at 2b, but a top of the order bat. Its fine to get 15-20 HRs from your leadoff man or #2. But that's not elite MOTO. And Donny is not a MOTO in LF like Holliday etc, Gorman hasn't proven he should even start. We need to get this lineup sorted and still figure out where the power bats are going to play once we do decide to go acquire them.

Not debating that 30 HR guys exist. That would be dumber than my normal.
Most understand the deficit. 3B does need to part of the answer since too many positions
currently are not. Herrera might but I doubt he sticks at C.

We may see the guy differently. True he hasn't done it. Don't know what to say other
than what I stated above.

2- 2B hit 31 HR's in 2025, 3-3B of which only 1 can be considered to wear a glove.
My projection is JJ hits 25 regularly IF and WHEN he figures it out. easily wrong as the 15-20 may be.

He will get a long time at one of those positions. Any additional HR's need to come elsewhere
but yes it does need to happen. Where is that debated. I just don't see why degrade on a probable increase at of
that HR power at either position where 25 HR's is top 5. Arenado or Donovan have less.
Gorman may not stick. Buying either Bregman or 35 y/o Suarez are debatable at best answers too.
At least wouldn't make me happy. Bichette sure, I'd take but he does have his own free will.

I don't think the 30 hrs are that big of an issue here when it comes to JJ. He will probably produce a ton of doubles with his line drive swing. Add to the fact, that he will probably make better contact and draw more walks, the overall slg and counting stats should still be better than many of the 30 plus hr hitters currently. Give me Brett numbers with JJ. George only had 2 30 plus hr years and I would bet that JJ has the ability to get there once or twice in his career. If not, I think his overall production, will lessen the importance of whether he does or not in m.h.o.

[renostl]

Donny at 3rd base. Gorman can't out hit his defensive deficiencies at 3rd.

We get to see what happens soon.

A problem exist with a couple of players being 1 tool players
and unable to wear gloves. It should gain clarity soon enough, until
it does, Donnie limits options at 3B of the others.

IF for some odd event and BD isn't moved then AB or NG should.

[renostl]

I always thought his best position was second base.

So is Gormans and So is JJWs.

We are a team of MI'ers.

We completely lack a true Rolen GG/Cleanup hitter type for 3b anywhere in our system.

hall of fame 3rd basemen aren't that easy to find

None of our championship rosters have been easy to create. That should still be the goal though. Not just who "isn't bad at 3b, that'll do pig, that'll do."

I understand the kid hasn't done jack at MLB level but he will get a long look
maybe a 3 season trial. It's your comment though that makes me want JJ at the corner.
There only 2 or 3 players putting up those huge 3B numbers.

Rolen is a high bar. His best power numbers were 1997 through 2004. He averaged
27 HR's for those 8 seasons. JJ may totally fail but with success I do not see 25HR's
as unreachable for him. That's top 5 in today's game and where some very large contracts
reside. 2B not as much. TE/BD/Lowe contracts more often.
jmo.

There were 33 players who hit 30 HRs last year. That's actual HRs, not just potential. 7 hit 40+ and 4 hit 50+. Cal hit 60.

We need 2-3 of these in our lineup long term. Not 15-20 HRs and maybe 25 in a good year, but bonafide power hitters. The kind who project at 30+ and can hit 45-50 when the stars align. They DO exist, and are relatively plentiful for other teams. So if not 3b, somewhere else, but at multiple spots. JJW is very much a plus bat at 2b, but a top of the order bat. Its fine to get 15-20 HRs from your leadoff man or #2. But that's not elite MOTO. And Donny is not a MOTO in LF like Holliday etc, Gorman hasn't proven he should even start. We need to get this lineup sorted and still figure out where the power bats are going to play once we do decide to go acquire them.

Not debating that 30 HR guys exist. That would be dumber than my normal.
Most understand the deficit. 3B does need to part of the answer since too many positions
currently are not. Herrera might but I doubt he sticks at C.

We may see the guy differently. True he hasn't done it. Don't know what to say other
than what I stated above.

2- 2B hit 31 HR's in 2025, 3-3B of which only 1 can be considered to wear a glove.
My projection is JJ hits 25 regularly IF and WHEN he figures it out. easily wrong as the 15-20 may be.

He will get a long time at one of those positions. Any additional HR's need to come elsewhere
but yes it does need to happen. Where is that debated. I just don't see why degrade on a probable increase at of
that HR power at either position where 25 HR's is top 5. Arenado or Donovan have less.
Gorman may not stick. Buying either Bregman or 35 y/o Suarez are debatable at best answers too.
At least wouldn't make me happy. Bichette sure, I'd take but he does have his own free will.

I don't think the 30 hrs are that big of an issue here when it comes to JJ. He will probably produce a ton of doubles with his line drive swing. Add to the fact, that he will probably make better contact and draw more walks, the overall slg and counting stats should still be better than many of the 30 plus hr hitters currently. Give me Brett numbers with JJ. George only had 2 30 plus hr years and I would bet that JJ has the ability to get there once or twice in his career. If not, I think his overall production, will lessen the importance of whether he does or not in m.h.o.

I completely agree.
Mostly pointing toward my overhyped projections of the player and what is a very
good production at the positions that he plays. 3B/2B or SS.
The ball jumps when he hits it. 25 seems reasonable. Brett, Bregman, Chapman HR power
is in his abilities. Rolen only had 3 30 HR seasons himself as a HOF player.
Now easily wrong, he hasn't done a thing at MLB. No need to jinx the guy but good contact
plus balls when hit don't scrape over the fence seems promising to me.

[zuck698]

I always thought his best position was second base.

So is Gormans and So is JJWs.

We are a team of MI'ers.

We completely lack a true Rolen GG/Cleanup hitter type for 3b anywhere in our system.

hall of fame 3rd basemen aren't that easy to find

None of our championship rosters have been easy to create. That should still be the goal though. Not just who "isn't bad at 3b, that'll do pig, that'll do."

I understand the kid hasn't done jack at MLB level but he will get a long look
maybe a 3 season trial. It's your comment though that makes me want JJ at the corner.
There only 2 or 3 players putting up those huge 3B numbers.

Rolen is a high bar. His best power numbers were 1997 through 2004. He averaged
27 HR's for those 8 seasons. JJ may totally fail but with success I do not see 25HR's
as unreachable for him. That's top 5 in today's game and where some very large contracts
reside. 2B not as much. TE/BD/Lowe contracts more often.
jmo.

There were 33 players who hit 30 HRs last year. That's actual HRs, not just potential. 7 hit 40+ and 4 hit 50+. Cal hit 60.

We need 2-3 of these in our lineup long term. Not 15-20 HRs and maybe 25 in a good year, but bonafide power hitters. The kind who project at 30+ and can hit 45-50 when the stars align. They DO exist, and are relatively plentiful for other teams. So if not 3b, somewhere else, but at multiple spots. JJW is very much a plus bat at 2b, but a top of the order bat. Its fine to get 15-20 HRs from your leadoff man or #2. But that's not elite MOTO. And Donny is not a MOTO in LF like Holliday etc, Gorman hasn't proven he should even start. We need to get this lineup sorted and still figure out where the power bats are going to play once we do decide to go acquire them.

Not debating that 30 HR guys exist. That would be dumber than my normal.
Most understand the deficit. 3B does need to part of the answer since too many positions
currently are not. Herrera might but I doubt he sticks at C.

We may see the guy differently. True he hasn't done it. Don't know what to say other
than what I stated above.

2- 2B hit 31 HR's in 2025, 3-3B of which only 1 can be considered to wear a glove.
My projection is JJ hits 25 regularly IF and WHEN he figures it out. easily wrong as the 15-20 may be.

He will get a long time at one of those positions. Any additional HR's need to come elsewhere
but yes it does need to happen. Where is that debated. I just don't see why degrade on a probable increase at of
that HR power at either position where 25 HR's is top 5. Arenado or Donovan have less.
Gorman may not stick. Buying either Bregman or 35 y/o Suarez are debatable at best answers too.
At least wouldn't make me happy. Bichette sure, I'd take but he does have his own free will.

I don't think the 30 hrs are that big of an issue here when it comes to JJ. He will probably produce a ton of doubles with his line drive swing. Add to the fact, that he will probably make better contact and draw more walks, the overall slg and counting stats should still be better than many of the 30 plus hr hitters currently. Give me Brett numbers with JJ. George only had 2 30 plus hr years and I would bet that JJ has the ability to get there once or twice in his career. If not, I think his overall production, will lessen the importance of whether he does or not in m.h.o.

I completely agree.
Mostly pointing toward my overhyped projections of the player and what is a very
good production at the positions that he plays. 3B/2B or SS.
The ball jumps when he hits it. 25 seems reasonable. Brett, Bregman, Chapman HR power
is in his abilities. Rolen only had 3 30 HR seasons himself as a HOF player.
Now easily wrong, he hasn't done a thing at MLB. No need to jinx the guy but good contact
plus balls when hit don't scrape over the fence seems promising to me.

I totally agree with you. The kid has not done a thing yet in MLB, but man, he certainly has played the part at all levels, up to this point. I know as a life long Cards fan, limiting expectations on youngsters should come with the territory. It is just so hard to temper my expectations with this kid. Unless he is injured, I just cannot fathom JJ not being at least an above average player as his floor.

[Carp4Cy]

I always thought his best position was second base.

So is Gormans and So is JJWs.

We are a team of MI'ers.

We completely lack a true Rolen GG/Cleanup hitter type for 3b anywhere in our system.

hall of fame 3rd basemen aren't that easy to find

None of our championship rosters have been easy to create. That should still be the goal though. Not just who "isn't bad at 3b, that'll do pig, that'll do."

I understand the kid hasn't done jack at MLB level but he will get a long look
maybe a 3 season trial. It's your comment though that makes me want JJ at the corner.
There only 2 or 3 players putting up those huge 3B numbers.

Rolen is a high bar. His best power numbers were 1997 through 2004. He averaged
27 HR's for those 8 seasons. JJ may totally fail but with success I do not see 25HR's
as unreachable for him. That's top 5 in today's game and where some very large contracts
reside. 2B not as much. TE/BD/Lowe contracts more often.
jmo.

There were 33 players who hit 30 HRs last year. That's actual HRs, not just potential. 7 hit 40+ and 4 hit 50+. Cal hit 60.

We need 2-3 of these in our lineup long term. Not 15-20 HRs and maybe 25 in a good year, but bonafide power hitters. The kind who project at 30+ and can hit 45-50 when the stars align. They DO exist, and are relatively plentiful for other teams. So if not 3b, somewhere else, but at multiple spots. JJW is very much a plus bat at 2b, but a top of the order bat. Its fine to get 15-20 HRs from your leadoff man or #2. But that's not elite MOTO. And Donny is not a MOTO in LF like Holliday etc, Gorman hasn't proven he should even start. We need to get this lineup sorted and still figure out where the power bats are going to play once we do decide to go acquire them.

Not debating that 30 HR guys exist. That would be dumber than my normal.
Most understand the deficit. 3B does need to part of the answer since too many positions
currently are not. Herrera might but I doubt he sticks at C.

We may see the guy differently. True he hasn't done it. Don't know what to say other
than what I stated above.

2- 2B hit 31 HR's in 2025, 3-3B of which only 1 can be considered to wear a glove.
My projection is JJ hits 25 regularly IF and WHEN he figures it out. easily wrong as the 15-20 may be.

He will get a long time at one of those positions. Any additional HR's need to come elsewhere
but yes it does need to happen. Where is that debated. I just don't see why degrade on a probable increase at of
that HR power at either position where 25 HR's is top 5. Arenado or Donovan have less.
Gorman may not stick. Buying either Bregman or 35 y/o Suarez are debatable at best answers too.
At least wouldn't make me happy. Bichette sure, I'd take but he does have his own free will.

I don't think the 30 hrs are that big of an issue here when it comes to JJ. He will probably produce a ton of doubles with his line drive swing. Add to the fact, that he will probably make better contact and draw more walks, the overall slg and counting stats should still be better than many of the 30 plus hr hitters currently. Give me Brett numbers with JJ. George only had 2 30 plus hr years and I would bet that JJ has the ability to get there once or twice in his career. If not, I think his overall production, will lessen the importance of whether he does or not in m.h.o.

Brett is an interesting comp, given his longevity. I wonder how many Cards posters would have wanted to trade him in 1984 after his WAR dropped to 2.8 and only 69 RBIs at 32 years old, for "A HAUL of Prospects", and then the Royals woud have never won a WS with his MVP #2 caliber 1985 season?

[zuck698]

He would have been a whipping boy here, for quite a few CT'ers after 84. Yes, the 85 season was unreal for him. I think he had a plus 8 WAR that year. O.T., I had the pleasure of taking a Kauffman Stadium tour in 1989. Goerge was the guide for it. You couldn't have asked to meet a nicer guy. JJ duplicating his career would be just fine by me.

[zuck698]

Donny at 3rd base. Gorman can't out hit his defensive deficiencies at 3rd.

We get to see what happens soon.

A problem exist with a couple of players being 1 tool players
and unable to wear gloves. It should gain clarity soon enough, until
it does, Donnie limits options at 3B of the others.

IF for some odd event and BD isn't moved then AB or NG should.

Renostl we can finish our conversation on the Mariners board, I guess.

[renostl]

Donny at 3rd base. Gorman can't out hit his defensive deficiencies at 3rd.

We get to see what happens soon.

A problem exist with a couple of players being 1 tool players
and unable to wear gloves. It should gain clarity soon enough, until
it does, Donnie limits options at 3B of the others.

IF for some odd event and BD isn't moved then AB or NG should.

Renostl we can finish our conversation on the Mariners board, I guess.