rockondlouie wrote: ↑29 Jan 2026 12:18 pm
I'm not the least bit disappointed
Anyone who thought we'd get some haul of MLB Top 100 prospects for the likes of S. Gray, Willy and NADO, when all three were nothing more than salary dumps, doesn't understand baseball.
C. Bloom has done as well as can be expected w/those three trades, even adding some players who will see action on the Cardinals in 2026 as well as some real upside, lotto ticket prospects.
And as far as Oli, bringing him back was a BDWJr move and not a Bloom move.
When your goal is to CUT as much payroll as possible before the CBA negotiations there was NO WAY Dewitt was going to pay Oli to sit on his a z z AND allow Bloom to hire his Manager before the new CBA is in place.
I also like Bloom holding steadfast on Donny until he gets his asking price.
There's no rush to deal him just to "make a deal".
Worse case is we have Donny to start the season and then you see what type of offers you can get midseason..........
......wash, rinse, repeat again next offseason (if there is an offseason) or just sign him to a new deal and keep him.
JMO
The waiting for random Offers is the part that needs to change. How long has it been since we used to read actual NAMES the cardinals were interested in, then Jocketty (or even early Mo) made it happen? Rolen, Holliday, Beltran, Williams several others. Even Nado. It took multiple years to get Holliday, but it happened. Wainwright too was a Named target internally even though we didn't hear about him. Yadi was a target we went and got as his brothers were already starting to create a family name for themselves and we kept scouts in PR. Carp was a under the radar pitcher Dave felt he could help. Renteria was a proven young target Walt knew could help turn us around. Hopefully Doyle is someone we targeted in that manner as well.
We need to start with a vision of exactly what we need and go find it, instead of just waiting for the "best available prospect" to get offered, as you likely will just end up with a jumble of unmatched parts.
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑29 Jan 2026 11:29 am
Some of you have already had disappointments with Bloom & Co. Some are unhappy that he retained Marmol as manager. Some of you are upset that he traded the veterans and reduced payroll. For me, his biggest swing and miss so far is failing to deal with the clunky roster in any meaningful way this winter.
Part of the point of taking a year to transition the front office the way they did was so that the incoming POBO would be familiar with the organization and could hit the ground running. In a lot of ways they have made phenomenal progress, but I am stunned that they have done virtually nothing about the clunky roster construction.
Catchers- We have 5 catchers on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. You can argue about which one needs to go- but that at least one needs to go, seems plain.
Middle infield- Donovan, Wetherholt, Winn, Saggese, Fermin, Torres, and Prieto are all on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. This goes beyond depth- there are more players here than can be responsibly deployed.
Left-handed hitters- We’ve gone through the last few seasons too left-handed. We know this. Nothing is being done to address this. Arenado and Contreras were traded- removing two of the RH bats we did have. The new additions this year (Wetherholt and Crooks) are both left-handed. You can debate who should be moved- but there should have been some move to address the clunky roster here.
Left-handed pitchers in the system- This is tricky because they aren’t fully formed, and you don’t know for sure who will pan out and who won’t, but there are more left-handed starting pitchers in the minors than can be deployed to the major league roster. This too, makes a roster clunky.
I have no one player that I am unhappy with not trading, but I am disappointed not to see anything done to streamline the roster into something that fits together better.
Well articulated and explored. I can agree with it. I would add that the trades that were made were basically salary dumps. What talent they did get is unproven at best and as we've seen with the Clarke debacle they're possibly unsound. This team needs stable talent and when you look around you see very little of it. Wynn is solid and at times spectacular. No one else really stands out. Pitching wise, Libertore is your number 1 and at times he's shaky. This team is a car with loose wheels. One or two comes off and we're looking down the barrel of 100 losses. If everything goes good, and I mean everything, I just don't see this team making the playoffs. If they add some premium talent, then I could see it maybe. But apparently they're intent on losing and losing big. A shameful time to be a Cardinal fan. I bet Wynn wishes they'd trade him too.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑29 Jan 2026 12:18 pm
I'm not the least bit disappointed
Anyone who thought we'd get some haul of MLB Top 100 prospects for the likes of S. Gray, Willy and NADO, when all three were nothing more than salary dumps, doesn't understand baseball.
C. Bloom has done as well as can be expected w/those three trades, even adding some players who will see action on the Cardinals in 2026 as well as some real upside, lotto ticket prospects.
And as far as Oli, bringing him back was a BDWJr move and not a Bloom move.
When your goal is to CUT as much payroll as possible before the CBA negotiations there was NO WAY Dewitt was going to pay Oli to sit on his a z z AND allow Bloom to hire his Manager before the new CBA is in place.
I also like Bloom holding steadfast on Donny until he gets his asking price.
There's no rush to deal him just to "make a deal".
Worse case is we have Donny to start the season and then you see what type of offers you can get midseason..........
......wash, rinse, repeat again next offseason (if there is an offseason) or just sign him to a new deal and keep him.
JMO
The waiting for random Offers is the part that needs to change. How long has it been since we used to read actual NAMES the cardinals were interested in, then Jocketty (or even early Mo) made it happen? Rolen, Holliday, Beltran, Williams several others. Even Nado. It took multiple years to get Holliday, but it happened. Wainwright too was a Named target internally even though we didn't hear about him. Yadi was a target we went and got as his brothers were already starting to create a family name for themselves and we kept scouts in PR. Carp was a under the radar pitcher Dave felt he could help. Renteria was a proven young target Walt knew could help turn us around. Hopefully Doyle is someone we targeted in that manner as well.
We need to start with a vision of exactly what we need and go find it, instead of just waiting for the "best available prospect" to get offered, as you likely will just end up with a jumble of unmatched parts.
The Cardinals at that time had an established major league team that they were looking to put over the top and a strong farm system with prospects who could land them those big names. Right now they have neither.
Right now, "exactly what they need" is nearly everything an "what we need to go find it" is not nearly enough. Gonna take time to dig out of the hole.
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑29 Jan 2026 11:29 am
Some of you have already had disappointments with Bloom & Co. Some are unhappy that he retained Marmol as manager. Some of you are upset that he traded the veterans and reduced payroll. For me, his biggest swing and miss so far is failing to deal with the clunky roster in any meaningful way this winter.
Part of the point of taking a year to transition the front office the way they did was so that the incoming POBO would be familiar with the organization and could hit the ground running. In a lot of ways they have made phenomenal progress, but I am stunned that they have done virtually nothing about the clunky roster construction.
Catchers- We have 5 catchers on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. You can argue about which one needs to go- but that at least one needs to go, seems plain.
Middle infield- Donovan, Wetherholt, Winn, Saggese, Fermin, Torres, and Prieto are all on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. This goes beyond depth- there are more players here than can be responsibly deployed.
Left-handed hitters- We’ve gone through the last few seasons too left-handed. We know this. Nothing is being done to address this. Arenado and Contreras were traded- removing two of the RH bats we did have. The new additions this year (Wetherholt and Crooks) are both left-handed. You can debate who should be moved- but there should have been some move to address the clunky roster here.
Left-handed pitchers in the system- This is tricky because they aren’t fully formed, and you don’t know for sure who will pan out and who won’t, but there are more left-handed starting pitchers in the minors than can be deployed to the major league roster. This too, makes a roster clunky.
I have no one player that I am unhappy with not trading, but I am disappointed not to see anything done to streamline the roster into something that fits together better.
Well articulated and explored. I can agree with it. I would add that the trades that were made were basically salary dumps. What talent they did get is unproven at best and as we've seen with the Clarke debacle they're possibly unsound. This team needs stable talent and when you look around you see very little of it. Wynn is solid and at times spectacular. No one else really stands out. Pitching wise, Libertore is your number 1 and at times he's shaky. This team is a car with loose wheels. One or two comes off and we're looking down the barrel of 100 losses. If everything goes good, and I mean everything, I just don't see this team making the playoffs. If they add some premium talent, then I could see it maybe. But apparently they're intent on losing and losing big. A shameful time to be a Cardinal fan. I bet Wynn wishes they'd trade him too.
All minor league talent is unproven- and even some young major league talent. If we aren't used to that, we need to get used to it. It doesn't mean they are untalented, just unproven. Some will pan out. Some will not. That's the way it works. We need to get better at helping it pan out, and identifying which ones will pan out. It seems like that is getting better.
rockondlouie wrote: ↑29 Jan 2026 12:18 pm
I'm not the least bit disappointed
Anyone who thought we'd get some haul of MLB Top 100 prospects for the likes of S. Gray, Willy and NADO, when all three were nothing more than salary dumps, doesn't understand baseball.
C. Bloom has done as well as can be expected w/those three trades, even adding some players who will see action on the Cardinals in 2026 as well as some real upside, lotto ticket prospects.
And as far as Oli, bringing him back was a BDWJr move and not a Bloom move.
When your goal is to CUT as much payroll as possible before the CBA negotiations there was NO WAY Dewitt was going to pay Oli to sit on his a z z AND allow Bloom to hire his Manager before the new CBA is in place.
I also like Bloom holding steadfast on Donny until he gets his asking price.
There's no rush to deal him just to "make a deal".
Worse case is we have Donny to start the season and then you see what type of offers you can get midseason..........
......wash, rinse, repeat again next offseason (if there is an offseason) or just sign him to a new deal and keep him.
JMO
The waiting for random Offers is the part that needs to change. How long has it been since we used to read actual NAMES the cardinals were interested in, then Jocketty (or even early Mo) made it happen? Rolen, Holliday, Beltran, Williams several others. Even Nado. It took multiple years to get Holliday, but it happened. Wainwright too was a Named target internally even though we didn't hear about him. Yadi was a target we went and got as his brothers were already starting to create a family name for themselves and we kept scouts in PR. Carp was a under the radar pitcher Dave felt he could help. Renteria was a proven young target Walt knew could help turn us around. Hopefully Doyle is someone we targeted in that manner as well.
We need to start with a vision of exactly what we need and go find it, instead of just waiting for the "best available prospect" to get offered, as you likely will just end up with a jumble of unmatched parts.
The Cardinals at that time had an established major league team that they were looking to put over the top and a strong farm system with prospects who could land them those big names. Right now they have neither.
Right now, "exactly what they need" is nearly everything an "what we need to go find it" is not nearly enough. Gonna take time to dig out of the hole.
Theyre also going to suffer from the low-revenue/lack of viewership death cycle if they can't figure out creative ways to accelerate this process more.
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑29 Jan 2026 11:29 am
Some of you have already had disappointments with Bloom & Co. Some are unhappy that he retained Marmol as manager. Some of you are upset that he traded the veterans and reduced payroll. For me, his biggest swing and miss so far is failing to deal with the clunky roster in any meaningful way this winter.
Part of the point of taking a year to transition the front office the way they did was so that the incoming POBO would be familiar with the organization and could hit the ground running. In a lot of ways they have made phenomenal progress, but I am stunned that they have done virtually nothing about the clunky roster construction.
Catchers- We have 5 catchers on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. You can argue about which one needs to go- but that at least one needs to go, seems plain.
Middle infield- Donovan, Wetherholt, Winn, Saggese, Fermin, Torres, and Prieto are all on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. This goes beyond depth- there are more players here than can be responsibly deployed.
Left-handed hitters- We’ve gone through the last few seasons too left-handed. We know this. Nothing is being done to address this. Arenado and Contreras were traded- removing two of the RH bats we did have. The new additions this year (Wetherholt and Crooks) are both left-handed. You can debate who should be moved- but there should have been some move to address the clunky roster here.
Left-handed pitchers in the system- This is tricky because they aren’t fully formed, and you don’t know for sure who will pan out and who won’t, but there are more left-handed starting pitchers in the minors than can be deployed to the major league roster. This too, makes a roster clunky.
I have no one player that I am unhappy with not trading, but I am disappointed not to see anything done to streamline the roster into something that fits together better.
All good points.
It's strange how Bloom has been willing to make pretty radical moves like trading WC but he's sleeping on the simpler stuff, like clearing out some of the catchers and OF.
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑29 Jan 2026 14:16 pm
The thing about rebuilding is, there are several steps. Some can be done simultaneously, others can't be. The team has done a good job rebuilding the minor league system. They have had interesting drafts the past 2 years, they have some impactful development successes, they have made at least one big international signing, and have received some quality prospects via trade. By all accounts, the system is much improved and is at least a top 10 system now.
The work of cutting payroll has been done. There are no long term commitments.
Once you have added prospects and shipped veterans, you have to start to make sense of your roster. In my opinion, this is the task at hand. The roster has to be re-structured. I'm not even talking about who we might bring in by sending some folks out (of course we want them to be good!). Once you get the redundancies under control, get some folks in for positions of need, and give them some time to demonstrate what they can do- you start to get a picture of your roster- what it is, and what it isn't. I'm saying we have not made progress down this path the way we should have this winter, and doing it next winter will be difficult if a lockout occurs Dec 2.
To all of our militant and distraught friends here on the forum- THE CARDINALS WILL SPEND AGAIN. I'm sure the levels won't suit everyone, but they will spend again. However, they won't do it until this roster sorting is done. As many of you have elegantly pointed out, a certain amount of this will be necessary to produce the winner we all crave.
To reiterate, this roster must be sorted out- it is the project at hand. They have not made the progress on this they should have this winter. (Maybe they will go on a rampage here the next 2 weeks and shock me! I'd love that)
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑29 Jan 2026 11:29 am
Some of you have already had disappointments with Bloom & Co. Some are unhappy that he retained Marmol as manager. Some of you are upset that he traded the veterans and reduced payroll. For me, his biggest swing and miss so far is failing to deal with the clunky roster in any meaningful way this winter.
Part of the point of taking a year to transition the front office the way they did was so that the incoming POBO would be familiar with the organization and could hit the ground running. In a lot of ways they have made phenomenal progress, but I am stunned that they have done virtually nothing about the clunky roster construction.
Catchers- We have 5 catchers on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. You can argue about which one needs to go- but that at least one needs to go, seems plain.
Middle infield- Donovan, Wetherholt, Winn, Saggese, Fermin, Torres, and Prieto are all on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. This goes beyond depth- there are more players here than can be responsibly deployed.
Left-handed hitters- We’ve gone through the last few seasons too left-handed. We know this. Nothing is being done to address this. Arenado and Contreras were traded- removing two of the RH bats we did have. The new additions this year (Wetherholt and Crooks) are both left-handed. You can debate who should be moved- but there should have been some move to address the clunky roster here.
Left-handed pitchers in the system- This is tricky because they aren’t fully formed, and you don’t know for sure who will pan out and who won’t, but there are more left-handed starting pitchers in the minors than can be deployed to the major league roster. This too, makes a roster clunky.
I have no one player that I am unhappy with not trading, but I am disappointed not to see anything done to streamline the roster into something that fits together better.
Well articulated and explored. I can agree with it. I would add that the trades that were made were basically salary dumps. What talent they did get is unproven at best and as we've seen with the Clarke debacle they're possibly unsound. This team needs stable talent and when you look around you see very little of it. Wynn is solid and at times spectacular. No one else really stands out. Pitching wise, Libertore is your number 1 and at times he's shaky. This team is a car with loose wheels. One or two comes off and we're looking down the barrel of 100 losses. If everything goes good, and I mean everything, I just don't see this team making the playoffs. If they add some premium talent, then I could see it maybe. But apparently they're intent on losing and losing big. A shameful time to be a Cardinal fan. I bet Wynn wishes they'd trade him too.
All minor league talent is unproven- and even some young major league talent. If we aren't used to that, we need to get used to it. It doesn't mean they are untalented, just unproven. Some will pan out. Some will not. That's the way it works. We need to get better at helping it pan out, and identifying which ones will pan out. It seems like that is getting better.
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑29 Jan 2026 11:29 am
Some of you have already had disappointments with Bloom & Co. Some are unhappy that he retained Marmol as manager. Some of you are upset that he traded the veterans and reduced payroll. For me, his biggest swing and miss so far is failing to deal with the clunky roster in any meaningful way this winter.
Part of the point of taking a year to transition the front office the way they did was so that the incoming POBO would be familiar with the organization and could hit the ground running. In a lot of ways they have made phenomenal progress, but I am stunned that they have done virtually nothing about the clunky roster construction.
Catchers- We have 5 catchers on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. You can argue about which one needs to go- but that at least one needs to go, seems plain.
Middle infield- Donovan, Wetherholt, Winn, Saggese, Fermin, Torres, and Prieto are all on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. This goes beyond depth- there are more players here than can be responsibly deployed.
Left-handed hitters- We’ve gone through the last few seasons too left-handed. We know this. Nothing is being done to address this. Arenado and Contreras were traded- removing two of the RH bats we did have. The new additions this year (Wetherholt and Crooks) are both left-handed. You can debate who should be moved- but there should have been some move to address the clunky roster here.
Left-handed pitchers in the system- This is tricky because they aren’t fully formed, and you don’t know for sure who will pan out and who won’t, but there are more left-handed starting pitchers in the minors than can be deployed to the major league roster. This too, makes a roster clunky.
I have no one player that I am unhappy with not trading, but I am disappointed not to see anything done to streamline the roster into something that fits together better.
Well articulated and explored. I can agree with it. I would add that the trades that were made were basically salary dumps. What talent they did get is unproven at best and as we've seen with the Clarke debacle they're possibly unsound. This team needs stable talent and when you look around you see very little of it. Wynn is solid and at times spectacular. No one else really stands out. Pitching wise, Libertore is your number 1 and at times he's shaky. This team is a car with loose wheels. One or two comes off and we're looking down the barrel of 100 losses. If everything goes good, and I mean everything, I just don't see this team making the playoffs. If they add some premium talent, then I could see it maybe. But apparently they're intent on losing and losing big. A shameful time to be a Cardinal fan. I bet Wynn wishes they'd trade him too.
All minor league talent is unproven- and even some young major league talent. If we aren't used to that, we need to get used to it. It doesn't mean they are untalented, just unproven. Some will pan out. Some will not. That's the way it works. We need to get better at helping it pan out, and identifying which ones will pan out. It seems like that is getting better.
Bloom should've traded for an 8 WAR player.
Two 8 win players and traded Donovan and noot for woo lol
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑29 Jan 2026 11:29 am
Some of you have already had disappointments with Bloom & Co. Some are unhappy that he retained Marmol as manager. Some of you are upset that he traded the veterans and reduced payroll. For me, his biggest swing and miss so far is failing to deal with the clunky roster in any meaningful way this winter.
Part of the point of taking a year to transition the front office the way they did was so that the incoming POBO would be familiar with the organization and could hit the ground running. In a lot of ways they have made phenomenal progress, but I am stunned that they have done virtually nothing about the clunky roster construction.
Catchers- We have 5 catchers on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. You can argue about which one needs to go- but that at least one needs to go, seems plain.
Middle infield- Donovan, Wetherholt, Winn, Saggese, Fermin, Torres, and Prieto are all on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. This goes beyond depth- there are more players here than can be responsibly deployed.
Left-handed hitters- We’ve gone through the last few seasons too left-handed. We know this. Nothing is being done to address this. Arenado and Contreras were traded- removing two of the RH bats we did have. The new additions this year (Wetherholt and Crooks) are both left-handed. You can debate who should be moved- but there should have been some move to address the clunky roster here.
Left-handed pitchers in the system- This is tricky because they aren’t fully formed, and you don’t know for sure who will pan out and who won’t, but there are more left-handed starting pitchers in the minors than can be deployed to the major league roster. This too, makes a roster clunky.
I have no one player that I am unhappy with not trading, but I am disappointed not to see anything done to streamline the roster into something that fits together better.
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑29 Jan 2026 11:29 am
Some of you have already had disappointments with Bloom & Co. Some are unhappy that he retained Marmol as manager. Some of you are upset that he traded the veterans and reduced payroll. For me, his biggest swing and miss so far is failing to deal with the clunky roster in any meaningful way this winter.
Part of the point of taking a year to transition the front office the way they did was so that the incoming POBO would be familiar with the organization and could hit the ground running. In a lot of ways they have made phenomenal progress, but I am stunned that they have done virtually nothing about the clunky roster construction.
Catchers- We have 5 catchers on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. You can argue about which one needs to go- but that at least one needs to go, seems plain.
Middle infield- Donovan, Wetherholt, Winn, Saggese, Fermin, Torres, and Prieto are all on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. This goes beyond depth- there are more players here than can be responsibly deployed.
Left-handed hitters- We’ve gone through the last few seasons too left-handed. We know this. Nothing is being done to address this. Arenado and Contreras were traded- removing two of the RH bats we did have. The new additions this year (Wetherholt and Crooks) are both left-handed. You can debate who should be moved- but there should have been some move to address the clunky roster here.
Left-handed pitchers in the system- This is tricky because they aren’t fully formed, and you don’t know for sure who will pan out and who won’t, but there are more left-handed starting pitchers in the minors than can be deployed to the major league roster. This too, makes a roster clunky.
I have no one player that I am unhappy with not trading, but I am disappointed not to see anything done to streamline the roster into something that fits together better.
All good points.
It's strange how Bloom has been willing to make pretty radical moves like trading WC but he's sleeping on the simpler stuff, like clearing out some of the catchers and OF.
For sure. The need to re-structure the roster seems obvious. That there has been so little done on this front is surprising to me. As you say, they've done some complex things with good results.
ScotchMIrish wrote:29 Jan 2026 11:38 am
Regarding catchers I wouldn't trade anybody until things shake out. We don't know if Herrera can catch and we don't know which of the prospects will develop into MLB players. I'd stand pat and let it play out.
Rodriguez's bat is to good for his body to take a beating behind the plate...especially with all the catching the cards have...find him somewhere to play and start working him there now...then when he gets to the big leagues he's not learning a new position on the fly...
Talkin' Baseball wrote: ↑29 Jan 2026 11:29 am
Some of you have already had disappointments with Bloom & Co. Some are unhappy that he retained Marmol as manager. Some of you are upset that he traded the veterans and reduced payroll. For me, his biggest swing and miss so far is failing to deal with the clunky roster in any meaningful way this winter.
Part of the point of taking a year to transition the front office the way they did was so that the incoming POBO would be familiar with the organization and could hit the ground running. In a lot of ways they have made phenomenal progress, but I am stunned that they have done virtually nothing about the clunky roster construction.
Catchers- We have 5 catchers on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. You can argue about which one needs to go- but that at least one needs to go, seems plain.
Middle infield- Donovan, Wetherholt, Winn, Saggese, Fermin, Torres, and Prieto are all on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. This goes beyond depth- there are more players here than can be responsibly deployed.
Left-handed hitters- We’ve gone through the last few seasons too left-handed. We know this. Nothing is being done to address this. Arenado and Contreras were traded- removing two of the RH bats we did have. The new additions this year (Wetherholt and Crooks) are both left-handed. You can debate who should be moved- but there should have been some move to address the clunky roster here.
Left-handed pitchers in the system- This is tricky because they aren’t fully formed, and you don’t know for sure who will pan out and who won’t, but there are more left-handed starting pitchers in the minors than can be deployed to the major league roster. This too, makes a roster clunky.
I have no one player that I am unhappy with not trading, but I am disappointed not to see anything done to streamline the roster into something that fits together better.
Well articulated and explored. I can agree with it. I would add that the trades that were made were basically salary dumps. What talent they did get is unproven at best and as we've seen with the Clarke debacle they're possibly unsound. This team needs stable talent and when you look around you see very little of it. Wynn is solid and at times spectacular. No one else really stands out. Pitching wise, Libertore is your number 1 and at times he's shaky. This team is a car with loose wheels. One or two comes off and we're looking down the barrel of 100 losses. If everything goes good, and I mean everything, I just don't see this team making the playoffs. If they add some premium talent, then I could see it maybe. But apparently they're intent on losing and losing big. A shameful time to be a Cardinal fan. I bet Wynn wishes they'd trade him too.
All minor league talent is unproven- and even some young major league talent. If we aren't used to that, we need to get used to it. It doesn't mean they are untalented, just unproven. Some will pan out. Some will not. That's the way it works. We need to get better at helping it pan out, and identifying which ones will pan out. It seems like that is getting better.
That's my point. They're trading proven talent for unproven talent. Some will fail, it always happens. Some may succeed, some always does. But to count on them to carry a starting staff is foolhardy at best. Unless you plan on losing and don't care.
