Biggest Swing and Miss of the Offseason So Far

[82birds]

Some of you have already had disappointments with Bloom & Co. Some are unhappy that he retained Marmol as manager. Some of you are upset that he traded the veterans and reduced payroll. For me, his biggest swing and miss so far is failing to deal with the clunky roster in any meaningful way this winter.

Part of the point of taking a year to transition the front office the way they did was so that the incoming POBO would be familiar with the organization and could hit the ground running. In a lot of ways they have made phenomenal progress, but I am stunned that they have done virtually nothing about the clunky roster construction.

Catchers- We have 5 catchers on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. You can argue about which one needs to go- but that at least one needs to go, seems plain.

Middle infield- Donovan, Wetherholt, Winn, Saggese, Fermin, Torres, and Prieto are all on the 40 man roster with more in the pipeline. This goes beyond depth- there are more players here than can be responsibly deployed.

Left-handed hitters- We’ve gone through the last few seasons too left-handed. We know this. Nothing is being done to address this. Arenado and Contreras were traded- removing two of the RH bats we did have. The new additions this year (Wetherholt and Crooks) are both left-handed. You can debate who should be moved- but there should have been some move to address the clunky roster here.

Left-handed pitchers in the system- This is tricky because they aren’t fully formed, and you don’t know for sure who will pan out and who won’t, but there are more left-handed starting pitchers in the minors than can be deployed to the major league roster. This too, makes a roster clunky.

I have no one player that I am unhappy with not trading, but I am disappointed not to see anything done to streamline the roster into something that fits together better.

nice summary.
good points, especially IMO re: not enough RH bats

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Regarding catchers I wouldn't trade anybody until things shake out. We don't know if Herrera can catch and we don't know which of the prospects will develop into MLB players. I'd stand pat and let it play out.

I believe this is the correct decision.

In addition to not knowing if Herrera can catch, Rodriguez is only 19 this year and a few years away. We don't know if he can catch either at this point.

In addition to THAT, Crooks and Bernal are unproven as well. I have confidence that they can both play the position at the MLB level, but can they hit?

Catchers can take awhile to develop. So, yes, we have 5 catchers, but they are relatively spread out in their development and I don't think we know what we have right now. Too early to make that decision, in my opinion.

[Hoosier59]

Regarding catchers I wouldn't trade anybody until things shake out. We don't know if Herrera can catch and we don't know which of the prospects will develop into MLB players. I'd stand pat and let it play out.

+1 once upon a time the cardinals thought they had a surplus of outfielders and traded arorzorena and turns out they traded the wrong one. If they trade crooks he could go on have a good career Bernal flames out and Rodriguez doesn’t stick at catcher then the ones saying too much catching depth will be complaining what a great catcher they traded look what they are stuck with now.

You can't stop operating because you made a mistake in the past, or might make one in the future. Let's clear this up- you will make mistakes going forward. Hopefully not the same ones over and over. One big plus, these guys are better at talent evaluation than the old guard.

Remains to be seen

I know these guys are considered on the down side of their careers, however, between Sonny Gray (3), Willson Contreras (3), and Nolan Arenado (8) they participated in (14) All-Star games. How many of the players acquired for these three will even play in (1) All-Star game? Ok, say within the next 3-5 years?
My point being, as Scouty stated, remains to be seen just how good this new regime is at identifying players! So far, all we can say “ for sure” is that they’ve reduced the payroll. And even then, the Cardinals are paying millions of dollars for these former All-Stars to play on another team!

[Clubmaker2]

keep those 5 catchers for one position while you might have one outfielder for 3 outfield positions. Continue the problems of the past, dont convert what you have, to what you need. ... Don't identify your talent and wait 7 years to find out , yea, it is not him...

[RamFan08NY]

I wanted to see more moves, like trading away Donovan, JoJo and possibly Noot.

I wanted to see at least 1 or 2 elite level hitting prospects added to the org.

That said, I do like the moves that have happened.

It does seem as if they're holding onto a few guys in an attempt to be good enough for the final wild card spot. I actually agree with a few others who have said they think the team as currently constructed can win at least as many as last years team.

Elite hitting prospects would have been nice, but i dont think that the players the Cardinals had on the trade block were worthy of getting an elite hitter in return.

I think it would have taken BD, or their top rated catching prospect, + a top rated pitching prospect to get an elite hitter.

I am in agreement with you for the 26 season. Im remaining optimistic that this team will be more competitive than many think.

[RamFan08NY]

Regarding catchers I wouldn't trade anybody until things shake out. We don't know if Herrera can catch and we don't know which of the prospects will develop into MLB players. I'd stand pat and let it play out.

+1 once upon a time the cardinals thought they had a surplus of outfielders and traded arorzorena and turns out they traded the wrong one. If they trade crooks he could go on have a good career Bernal flames out and Rodriguez doesn’t stick at catcher then the ones saying too much catching depth will be complaining what a great catcher they traded look what they are stuck with now.

You can't stop operating because you made a mistake in the past, or might make one in the future. Let's clear this up- you will make mistakes going forward. Hopefully not the same ones over and over. One big plus, these guys are better at talent evaluation than the old guard.

Remains to be seen

I know these guys are considered on the down side of their careers, however, between Sonny Gray (3), Willson Contreras (3), and Nolan Arenado (8) they participated in (14) All-Star games. How many of the players acquired for these three will even play in (1) All-Star game? Ok, say within the next 3-5 years?
My point being, as Scouty stated, remains to be seen just how good this new regime is at identifying players! So far, all we can say “ for sure” is that they’ve reduced the payroll. And even then, the Cardinals are paying millions of dollars for these former All-Stars to play on another team!

Past all-star games doesn't mean much. Goldy also has a bunch under his belt. That didnt increase his value at this stage of his career.

[Hoosier59]

I wanted to see more moves, like trading away Donovan, JoJo and possibly Noot.

I wanted to see at least 1 or 2 elite level hitting prospects added to the org.

That said, I do like the moves that have happened.

It does seem as if they're holding onto a few guys in an attempt to be good enough for the final wild card spot. I actually agree with a few others who have said they think the team as currently constructed can win at least as many as last years team.

Elite hitting prospects would have been nice, but i dont think that the players the Cardinals had on the trade block were worthy of getting an elite hitter in return.

I think it would have taken BD, or their top rated catching prospect, + a top rated pitching prospect to get an elite hitter.

I am in agreement with you for the 26 season. Im remaining optimistic that this team will be more competitive than many think.

Many people here agree with this sentiment, however how much better would their chances be, if they would just bring in 2 or 3 more players? If only DeWitt was willing to spend something! He hasn’t, he won’t, because he’s quit on 2026!
The most aggravating part is if the team does outperform what most people think, then DeWitt will be like, see, this is how we saw things playing out! Yeah, right!

[Cusecards]

Regarding catchers I wouldn't trade anybody until things shake out. We don't know if Herrera can catch and we don't know which of the prospects will develop into MLB players. I'd stand pat and let it play out.

I believe this is the correct decision.

In addition to not knowing if Herrera can catch, Rodriguez is only 19 this year and a few years away. We don't know if he can catch either at this point.

In addition to THAT, Crooks and Bernal are unproven as well. I have confidence that they can both play the position at the MLB level, but can they hit?

Catchers can take awhile to develop. So, yes, we have 5 catchers, but they are relatively spread out in their development and I don't think we know what we have right now. Too early to make that decision, in my opinion.

Agree
If I was forced to put down a bet it would be that Herrera is NOT the long term catcher.

[Talkin' Baseball]

However, Bloom wasn't dealing during the transition year. So, he's only been the final decision-maker on all roster decisions, top to bottom, for a few months, it stands to reason the clunky roster situation hasn't been resolved. There are also holes in the development pipeline where we've got guys in MLB, then a hole, then guys not yet ready.

Take the five catchers, for example:
#1 Herrera: the projected starter, and possibly the best hitter in the team. We can argue he shouldn't be catching at all, but that is moot. They're gonna give it a go.

#2 Pagés: the established back-up. Will he be with the team for long, probably not but they're not going to turn the position over to the...

#3 Pozo: the next in line. He's just an emergency guy who goes away when when #4 is ready

#4 Crooks: small sample size. They obviously want him playing everyday in the minors until they feel he's ready. Not anyone who can headline a trade at this point in his career. Could be a trade sweetener, though or could be slated to move up to #2 quickly if he performs and is needed.

#5 Bernal: not MLB ready yet, but could be (probably is) the most talented catcher of the bunch. You don't just throw him in on a trade unless that trade is a big one but he isn't ready for the show yet, either. Patience is needed here.

If Crooks had another good year under his mask going into this season, it would be easy and needed to thin out the pipeline a little, but apparently they think he isn't quite ready. Maybe ST changes that outlook, probably not though and he'll play everyday in the minors to get there.

This catcher situation resolves itself over the next season. Herrera either improves and becomes the everyday catcher for years, which allows them re-shuffle what 2-5 looks like. Or he flames out as catcher and is moved to DH/LF. Everyone moves up. At least one of Pagés or Pozo are gone, the other is sharing time with Crooks while Bernal is on the way. Meanwhile Rodriguez begins to move into the picture.

The minors are improving quickly but still has holes. Those holes limit what they can or can't (will or won't) do going up the chain. Such is the mess leftover from the previous regime.

My point is, the new POBO hire was not a typical hire. We didn't fire the old one at the end of the season and hire someone in November to come in, do an evaluation, and start addressing issues. He has known for over a year (maybe more) that this was coming. As a result, even while not actually making the moves last season, he was able to familiarize himself with the players and the issues of the team. I'm not a raving lunatic who is hopping mad about this. I just thought there would be some movement to speak to these issues.

[Talkin' Baseball]

I'm not the least bit disappointed

Anyone who thought we'd get some haul of MLB Top 100 prospects for the likes of S. Gray, Willy and NADO, when all three were nothing more than salary dumps, doesn't understand baseball.

C. Bloom has done as well as can be expected w/those three trades, even adding some players who will see action on the Cardinals in 2026 as well as some real upside, lotto ticket prospects.

And as far as Oli, bringing him back was a BDWJr move and not a Bloom move.

When your goal is to CUT as much payroll as possible before the CBA negotiations there was NO WAY Dewitt was going to pay Oli to sit on his a z z AND allow Bloom to hire his Manager before the new CBA is in place.

I also like Bloom holding steadfast on Donny until he gets his asking price.

There's no rush to deal him just to "make a deal".

Worse case is we have Donny to start the season and then you see what type of offers you can get midseason..........

......wash, rinse, repeat again next offseason (if there is an offseason) or just sign him to a new deal and keep him.

JMO

Is this what you think I am talking about? It's not.

[imyourhuckleberry]

Spoiler

However, Bloom wasn't dealing during the transition year. So, he's only been the final decision-maker on all roster decisions, top to bottom, for a few months, it stands to reason the clunky roster situation hasn't been resolved. There are also holes in the development pipeline where we've got guys in MLB, then a hole, then guys not yet ready.

Take the five catchers, for example:
#1 Herrera: the projected starter, and possibly the best hitter in the team. We can argue he shouldn't be catching at all, but that is moot. They're gonna give it a go.

#2 Pagés: the established back-up. Will he be with the team for long, probably not but they're not going to turn the position over to the...

#3 Pozo: the next in line. He's just an emergency guy who goes away when when #4 is ready

#4 Crooks: small sample size. They obviously want him playing everyday in the minors until they feel he's ready. Not anyone who can headline a trade at this point in his career. Could be a trade sweetener, though or could be slated to move up to #2 quickly if he performs and is needed.

#5 Bernal: not MLB ready yet, but could be (probably is) the most talented catcher of the bunch. You don't just throw him in on a trade unless that trade is a big one but he isn't ready for the show yet, either. Patience is needed here.

If Crooks had another good year under his mask going into this season, it would be easy and needed to thin out the pipeline a little, but apparently they think he isn't quite ready. Maybe ST changes that outlook, probably not though and he'll play everyday in the minors to get there.

This catcher situation resolves itself over the next season. Herrera either improves and becomes the everyday catcher for years, which allows them re-shuffle what 2-5 looks like. Or he flames out as catcher and is moved to DH/LF. Everyone moves up. At least one of Pagés or Pozo are gone, the other is sharing time with Crooks while Bernal is on the way. Meanwhile Rodriguez begins to move into the picture.

The minors are improving quickly but still has holes. Those holes limit what they can or can't (will or won't) do going up the chain. Such is the mess leftover from the previous regime.

My point is, the new POBO hire was not a typical hire. We didn't fire the old one at the end of the season and hire someone in November to come in, do an evaluation, and start addressing issues. He has known for over a year (maybe more) that this was coming. As a result, even while not actually making the moves last season, he was able to familiarize himself with the players and the issues of the team. I'm not a raving lunatic who is hopping mad about this. I just thought there would be some movement to speak to these issues.

I agree the transition year was stupid. But it happened and there is no going back. I think Bloom knows exactly what he has and doesn't have in the minors, especially. I think he also knows that he has a position player problem (which is why he hasn't moved any minor league position players in trade) and a pitching issue which he's begun to address.

I think you are far from a raving lunatic. You one of the more balanced voices on CT and I appreciate your posts and opinions. I just happen to think the pace at which the re-build is going is probably about right, even if I'd love to see more action.

[Talkin' Baseball]

However, Bloom wasn't dealing during the transition year. So, he's only been the final decision-maker on all roster decisions, top to bottom, for a few months, it stands to reason the clunky roster situation hasn't been resolved. There are also holes in the development pipeline where we've got guys in MLB, then a hole, then guys not yet ready.

Take the five catchers, for example:
#1 Herrera: the projected starter, and possibly the best hitter in the team. We can argue he shouldn't be catching at all, but that is moot. They're gonna give it a go.

#2 Pagés: the established back-up. Will he be with the team for long, probably not but they're not going to turn the position over to the...

#3 Pozo: the next in line. He's just an emergency guy who goes away when when #4 is ready

#4 Crooks: small sample size. They obviously want him playing everyday in the minors until they feel he's ready. Not anyone who can headline a trade at this point in his career. Could be a trade sweetener, though or could be slated to move up to #2 quickly if he performs and is needed.

#5 Bernal: not MLB ready yet, but could be (probably is) the most talented catcher of the bunch. You don't just throw him in on a trade unless that trade is a big one but he isn't ready for the show yet, either. Patience is needed here.

If Crooks had another good year under his mask going into this season, it would be easy and needed to thin out the pipeline a little, but apparently they think he isn't quite ready. Maybe ST changes that outlook, probably not though and he'll play everyday in the minors to get there.

This catcher situation resolves itself over the next season. Herrera either improves and becomes the everyday catcher for years, which allows them re-shuffle what 2-5 looks like. Or he flames out as catcher and is moved to DH/LF. Everyone moves up. At least one of Pagés or Pozo are gone, the other is sharing time with Crooks while Bernal is on the way. Meanwhile Rodriguez begins to move into the picture.

The minors are improving quickly but still has holes. Those holes limit what they can or can't (will or won't) do going up the chain. Such is the mess leftover from the previous regime.

What is it you think they want to see from Crooks at AAA that he has not already shown them? Of course I don't know, but I would be shocked if they sent him back to Memphis to start the season. Would they do that and keep Bernal at Springfield for a second year when he is clearly ready to be promoted? Or, would they send Crooks to Memphis AND promote Bernal? This is what a logjam looks like.

Pages or Crooks could be traded and Pozo could serve the same role he served last season- second catcher. We survived last year and we could survive again until Bernal was ready.

[imyourhuckleberry]

I think they'd love for Crooks to light ST on fire and take the back up job from Pagés. I don't think he showed them enough in a sss last season. Otherwise Pozo or Pagés would already be gone. Honestly, I don't think it will take much. A good ST or a hot start at AAA or an injury

[Talkin' Baseball]

The thing about rebuilding is, there are several steps. Some can be done simultaneously, others can't be. The team has done a good job rebuilding the minor league system. They have had interesting drafts the past 2 years, they have some impactful development successes, they have made at least one big international signing, and have received some quality prospects via trade. By all accounts, the system is much improved and is at least a top 10 system now.

The work of cutting payroll has been done. There are no long term commitments.

Once you have added prospects and shipped veterans, you have to start to make sense of your roster. In my opinion, this is the task at hand. The roster has to be re-structured. I'm not even talking about who we might bring in by sending some folks out (of course we want them to be good!). Once you get the redundancies under control, get some folks in for positions of need, and give them some time to demonstrate what they can do- you start to get a picture of your roster- what it is, and what it isn't. I'm saying we have not made progress down this path the way we should have this winter, and doing it next winter will be difficult if a lockout occurs Dec 2.

To all of our militant and distraught friends here on the forum- THE CARDINALS WILL SPEND AGAIN. I'm sure the levels won't suit everyone, but they will spend again. However, they won't do it until this roster sorting is done. As many of you have elegantly pointed out, a certain amount of this will be necessary to produce the winner we all crave.

To reiterate, this roster must be sorted out- it is the project at hand. They have not made the progress on this they should have this winter. (Maybe they will go on a rampage here the next 2 weeks and shock me! I'd love that)

[craviduce]

The thing about rebuilding is, there are several steps. Some can be done simultaneously, others can't be. The team has done a good job rebuilding the minor league system. They have had interesting drafts the past 2 years, they have some impactful development successes, they have made at least one big international signing, and have received some quality prospects via trade. By all accounts, the system is much improved and is at least a top 10 system now.

The work of cutting payroll has been done. There are no long term commitments.

Once you have added prospects and shipped veterans, you have to start to make sense of your roster. In my opinion, this is the task at hand. The roster has to be re-structured. I'm not even talking about who we might bring in by sending some folks out (of course we want them to be good!). Once you get the redundancies under control, get some folks in for positions of need, and give them some time to demonstrate what they can do- you start to get a picture of your roster- what it is, and what it isn't. I'm saying we have not made progress down this path the way we should have this winter, and doing it next winter will be difficult if a lockout occurs Dec 2.

To all of our militant and distraught friends here on the forum- THE CARDINALS WILL SPEND AGAIN. I'm sure the levels won't suit everyone, but they will spend again. However, they won't do it until this roster sorting is done. As many of you have elegantly pointed out, a certain amount of this will be necessary to produce the winner we all crave.

To reiterate, this roster must be sorted out- it is the project at hand. They have not made the progress on this they should have this winter. (Maybe they will go on a rampage here the next 2 weeks and shock me! I'd love that)

a lot of acquisitions going forward will be through trades...using excessive depth. Big contracts will be awarded to our young rising stars, not big time FA's. This means we can't ever afford to: 1) Sign a FA with a QO attached to them and lose a draft pick; 2) miss on a draft. We MUST hit on at least 2 or 3 picks each draft. 3) Same goes with each IFA signing period. We MUST have 2 IFA youngsters make it to the Bigs and/or become a top 100 prospect.

We'll fill in gaps to the 26 man each year this way. It's a new world, with revenue from Media deals at huge "??????", we have treat ourselves as a small/mid market club from now on.

That's just the way I think it will go.....$150million team going forward when we choose to start spending. Maybe an outlier year or 2 around $180million if we're missing that 1 piece to be WS contenders.

[Clubmaker2]

When you say ‘rebuild,’ it’s ‘build,’” DeWitt Jr. said. “I don’t know about rebuild. But Chaim [Bloom]’s a draft and development GM, or president of baseball ops ... We’re on the same page with what he plans to do, which is build, don’t give up draft choices, try to accumulate draft choices. You know, it could take some time, hopefully not long, and we’re excited.”

Read more at: https://www.bnd.com/sports/mlb/st-louis ... rylink=cpy



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