Army is out of options

[theograce]

Hmm so why would Holloway leave Edmonton and accept the Blues deal

EDM didn’t match dingus.

[TheJackBurton]

Armstrong’s days are done — the game has completely passed him by. I mean, look at what Zito’s doing in Florida, BriseBois in Tampa, even Kent Hughes in Montreal. Meanwhile, Armstrong’s still stuck trying to figure out the basics. Time to retire now and not at the end.

you mean the guy who completely turned the NHL world upside down last off season by offer sheeting two top 15 picks and getting both?

That guy has had the game pass him by?

The offer sheets proved that Army is failing. When we all found out the 2 on Edmonton's bench are way better than anything on ours, it raised red flags. Offer sheets should demonstrate that you know how to add 1 piece of icing to the top of your cake, not prove that your bench was completely empty.

Same thing with the Berggren waiver claim. To see that Detroit's trash is on our first line does not indicate that our GM is doing well.

In my mind, you can't just throw out Army. You have also remove Army 1.00000001, Steen. You have to also remove the scouts and personnel people that have been feeding Army bad advice. That should be step one of the fix.

This isn't rooted in reality.

So if we trade for a better center than Thomas does that mean Army is failing at his job?

You can only draft what is available and where you draft at. How in the world would it matter how the talent is acquired? Isn't part of his job to identify players on other teams and doing everything in his power to acquire them?

We have one of the best prospect pools in the league how is the scouting staff doing poorly?

We have enjoyed one of the highest winning pcts in the league under Army why are we acting like we've been saddled with a reject?

[Jeff Goldblum]

It amazes me how much people want to address symptoms and sell low on everything....just silly.

There is a big issue somewhere that needs addressed.

To me its actually stillman that is out of options, this team was either put together wrong or its being managed wrong.


My guess is we can't figure it out because the people in charge of figuring out the problem are the problem. When you start thinking it seems like all the little guys need fired you probably better start looking up the ladder.

The problems are a lot less glaring than you me or all the posters think it is. Transport yourself back to last year. What was the difference between that team and this team after we hired Monty? The team had a little quick few game juice and then went .500. The fan base was OK with this because it was a multiple year process. The offer sheet boys moved that window up a nudge. But we were talking 3 years meaning the target was supposed to be next season to be competitive. We made the playoffs because of a huge run of what is proving to be unsustainable hockey for this group.

What has happened this year? We have had more injuries this year than last. We are playing a younger line up today than we did last year. We are currently playing .500 hockey post thanksgiving. Very similar to what the results were last year.

So what has changed? The fan expectations have changed. Partly because we made the playoffs and were close to a first round upset. And partly because the GM and HC set a higher bar. But do you know what the bar was? It was to be a 5-8 Wild Card team. They thought, "hmm it looks like we should be a playoff team. We aren't in the tier of teams like the Avalanche and Dallas so we aren't expecting to be there."

The fans are showing up to the Arena which is a good thing. But the online fans have proven that they aren't capable of a full rebuild. They can't even handle an injury ridden season where we are the 9th youngest team in the league. What do you think this is going to look like if they tore it down to the studs? They also don't want to do that because of guys like Hofer/Thomas/Broberg/Holloway/Neighbours. They have made it very clear that they want those guys to have a chance to win. If you tear it down you are talking 5 years from now. That means you have to get rid of all of those players as well.

We are basically on the same trajectory we were before the start of last year but with more youth and more injury.

Is it really a tear down to get rid of your severely underperforming players who are getting paid handsomely?

[11WSChamps]

He clearly needs to send a message. What are we even playing for? I don’t want to keep hearing we are 3pts out of a playoff spot….i guess it’s 5 now so that’s a bonus. This team is absolute hot garbage and there is a serious problem in that locker room and it needs to be addressed before it infects our young players

Question is what’s the message. What’s the identity? The scheme? Army has drafted lean fast players to play a quick transition game. The coaching staff seems to teach a heavy, north south, on the forecheck style we won the Cup with 7 years ago. Surely confusing to your players. The former is the league trend not the latter. Look around the league teams generally don’t play the heavy game anymore. Also your team scoring is dependent on your top 6 producing every night. Generally there’s no supplemental scoring from your D or the bottom 6.

I agree except Florida just went to 3 consecutive Stanley Cup Finals and won 2 with that exact style. If some of the players won't adjust to the system, then get players who will.

Florida's style is what is going to win most of the time.

The Oilers with Gretzky aren't going to be resurrected and neither are the Penguins and Lemieux.

Being able to keep that kind of skill with the salary cap isn't sustainable.

Maybe they don't play a "heavy" game in the regular season but when the playoffs start its a different animal.

[skilles]

Armstrong’s days are done — the game has completely passed him by. I mean, look at what Zito’s doing in Florida, BriseBois in Tampa, even Kent Hughes in Montreal. Meanwhile, Armstrong’s still stuck trying to figure out the basics. Time to retire now and not at the end.

you mean the guy who completely turned the NHL world upside down last off season by offer sheeting two top 15 picks and getting both?

That guy has had the game pass him by?

I mean its kind of overblown, getting those 2 players was great but it was more incompetence on the other end than some kind of act of genius. Sounds like quite a few teams did the same think and luckily they chose the Blues.

Anyway its not that Army has always been bad at all but its time to make changes and quit knee jerking all the symptoms.

We are not getting any where near a reasonable return on the money being spent or the players we have and its been that way for awhile and its time for changes....sometimes the best thing about a new culture is that its new.

Its not always about blaming or fault or whatever, sometimes its just about starting a new chapter.

if it was overblown why did none of the other 31 GM's take advantage?

Why has it never been done before?

Which is more important why it happened or that it happened?

They tried, the players chose us and its never been done before because teams don't do what the Oilers did. If they did it would happen all the time.

[Ziggy3]

It amazes me how much people want to address symptoms and sell low on everything....just silly.

There is a big issue somewhere that needs addressed.

To me its actually stillman that is out of options, this team was either put together wrong or its being managed wrong.


My guess is we can't figure it out because the people in charge of figuring out the problem are the problem. When you start thinking it seems like all the little guys need fired you probably better start looking up the ladder.

The problems are a lot less glaring than you me or all the posters think it is. Transport yourself back to last year. What was the difference between that team and this team after we hired Monty? The team had a little quick few game juice and then went .500. The fan base was OK with this because it was a multiple year process. The offer sheet boys moved that window up a nudge. But we were talking 3 years meaning the target was supposed to be next season to be competitive. We made the playoffs because of a huge run of what is proving to be unsustainable hockey for this group.

What has happened this year? We have had more injuries this year than last. We are playing a younger line up today than we did last year. We are currently playing .500 hockey post thanksgiving. Very similar to what the results were last year.

So what has changed? The fan expectations have changed. Partly because we made the playoffs and were close to a first round upset. And partly because the GM and HC set a higher bar. But do you know what the bar was? It was to be a 5-8 Wild Card team. They thought, "hmm it looks like we should be a playoff team. We aren't in the tier of teams like the Avalanche and Dallas so we aren't expecting to be there."

The fans are showing up to the Arena which is a good thing. But the online fans have proven that they aren't capable of a full rebuild. They can't even handle an injury ridden season where we are the 9th youngest team in the league. What do you think this is going to look like if they tore it down to the studs? They also don't want to do that because of guys like Hofer/Thomas/Broberg/Holloway/Neighbours. They have made it very clear that they want those guys to have a chance to win. If you tear it down you are talking 5 years from now. That means you have to get rid of all of those players as well.

We are basically on the same trajectory we were before the start of last year but with more youth and more injury.

You know, if I hadn't been watching the games at all this year and just kept my eye on the standings, I might be convinced to agree with you. But after the nightmare-on-repeat viewing of games like last night, I just can't.

I don't know how many here are exactly advocating tearing it down to the studs (I'm not), but how might that look, you ask? I don't know, but perhaps it could look like that Blackhawks team last game? A team full of youth that did absolutely nothing special other than play a somewhat fundamentally sound game with a little bit of pep and gumption--yet that was enough to run this Blues team right out of the building.

There is something fundamentally broken with this team, and it needs a shakeup. Making the playoffs AT ALL is proving to be the anomaly these recent few seasons, and you don't sign guys like Thomas, Kyrou, Buch and even Fowler to the contracts they got if you aren't expecting some real improvement.

[DawgDad]

The OP was an open call for hot troll garbage, and that's what all this is.

Pretty sure everyone here knows I don’t troll. This was a thread for discussion purposes for the forum.

He clearly needs to send a message. What are we even playing for? I don’t want to keep hearing we are 3pts out of a playoff spot….i guess it’s 5 now so that’s a bonus. This team is absolute hot garbage and there is a serious problem in that locker room and it needs to be addressed before it infects our young players

There's your OP. Troll bait. "Hot garbage", "there is a serious problem in that locker room".

This IMHO is not typical of the vast majority of your normal posts. Have you been in the locker room? Have you been talking to the players or coaches? If so, say so. Otherwise, that may be your opinion but it's wild speculation, and it unquestionably feeds the "hot garbage" and "serious problem" troll narratives we wade through. It even led to postings about Holloway wanting out.

The locker room would be important if your speculation is true, but IMHO your statement is speculative.

Something with you has changed, you are normally FAR more analytical and insightful. Frustrated? Sure, most of us are. Expectations have not been met, and the expectations for this season are shifting in the wrong direction. This is akin to watching a stock drop in value today. What are the long-range expectations and trends? Does the long range plan need to be altered or ripped up? Why or why not? I don't think the current problems really impact the long term plan in ways that cannot be addressed. The kids are doing OK, if not great. The biggest issues appear to me to be Buchnevich, Kyrou, and Holloway's health and durability, all of which might yet self-correct.

[TBone]

This team lacks leadership but more importantly, an agitator who plays to the edge of dirty.

Bolduc was heading in that direction before he got shipped.

Jake will go there, but they need more than one. A Kadri type. Then it can become contagious.

As it stands this team has no spine. They're invertibrates.

[ManitobaBlues]

He clearly needs to send a message. What are we even playing for? I don’t want to keep hearing we are 3pts out of a playoff spot….i guess it’s 5 now so that’s a bonus. This team is absolute hot garbage and there is a serious problem in that locker room and it needs to be addressed before it infects our young players

Question is what’s the message. What’s the identity? The scheme? Army has drafted lean fast players to play a quick transition game. The coaching staff seems to teach a heavy, north south, on the forecheck style we won the Cup with 7 years ago. Surely confusing to your players. The former is the league trend not the latter. Look around the league teams generally don’t play the heavy game anymore. Also your team scoring is dependent on your top 6 producing every night. Generally there’s no supplemental scoring from your D or the bottom 6.

I agree except Florida just went to 3 consecutive Stanley Cup Finals and won 2 with that exact style. If some of the players won't adjust to the system, then get players who will.

Florida's style is what is going to win most of the time.

The Oilers with Gretzky aren't going to be resurrected and neither are the Penguins and Lemieux.

Being able to keep that kind of skill with the salary cap isn't sustainable.

Maybe they don't play a "heavy" game in the regular season but when the playoffs start its a different animal.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying the whole time — the playoffs are a completely different animal. Look at Florida: that team is built for playoff hockey. Same with Tampa — heavy, mean, and miserable to play against when it matters.

Carolina is the perfect example of a great regular-season team that turns into a bunch of passengers in the playoffs because half the roster isn’t built for it. All pace, no bite.

Colorado? They’ll be a wagon in the regular season, no doubt. But come playoff time, don’t be shocked if they’re bounced by the second round. Talent wins you games — playoff hockey needs something else.

The Blues need to pick an identity already. Either you sell and build a heavier team that’s actually made for playoff hockey, or you keep the core, move on from the coach, and bring in someone who wants to play fast. Straddling the fence gets you nowhere.

[callitwhatyouwant]

The OP was an open call for hot troll garbage, and that's what all this is.

Pretty sure everyone here knows I don’t troll. This was a thread for discussion purposes for the forum.

He clearly needs to send a message. What are we even playing for? I don’t want to keep hearing we are 3pts out of a playoff spot….i guess it’s 5 now so that’s a bonus. This team is absolute hot garbage and there is a serious problem in that locker room and it needs to be addressed before it infects our young players

There's your OP. Troll bait. "Hot garbage", "there is a serious problem in that locker room".

This IMHO is not typical of the vast majority of your normal posts. Have you been in the locker room? Have you been talking to the players or coaches? If so, say so. Otherwise, that may be your opinion but it's wild speculation, and it unquestionably feeds the "hot garbage" and "serious problem" troll narratives we wade through. It even led to postings about Holloway wanting out.

The locker room would be important if your speculation is true, but IMHO your statement is speculative.

Something with you has changed, you are normally FAR more analytical and insightful. Frustrated? Sure, most of us are. Expectations have not been met, and the expectations for this season are shifting in the wrong direction. This is akin to watching a stock drop in value today. What are the long-range expectations and trends? Does the long range plan need to be altered or ripped up? Why or why not? I don't think the current problems really impact the long term plan in ways that cannot be addressed. The kids are doing OK, if not great. The biggest issues appear to me to be Buchnevich, Kyrou, and Holloway's health and durability, all of which might yet self-correct.

To add to your open call for troll garbage. Hollywood in no way shape or form has said anything negative about the organization. In fact, he has said nothing but high praises for Monty, Army, Schenn, The city. He loves STL and has said as much and appreciates the opportunity that STL gave him that the previous team would not. He's even defended Kyrou and said he loves playing with him and showing up to the rink for practice with him. Anything other than that is troll garbage.

You are spot on with the problems. Buchy is having a down year and its frustrating, But I can give it a pass because it's an anomaly for him in a Blues uniform. Players have seasons that get off to rough starts and they never recover to come back and have a really good season the next year. We have seen it for the Cardinals before and it's happen where said players became MVP or MVP voting players the following season. It happens, heck it happened with Justin Faulk. Kyrou on the other hand doing his disappearing act for 3 of the last 4 seasons on a regular basis is becoming an identity, it's moved away from trending. In my opinion is you are start there. He's the one that represents a bit of value and allows a quick pivot. You can sell off your 1 year guys for parts as 4th liners somewhere else with Joseph, Sunny if the season continues down this path at the trade deadline but all you are getting back in return is maybe a 6th round draft pick.

The team has no appetite for blowing it up. So that takes off nearly every defender off the trade block unless something comes back of value in that department. The trades that will be made will have to be guys that can help Snuggy/Dvorsky/Stenberg/Neighbours/Broberg/Hollywood/LM/Hofer/Thomas do something meaningful in the next couple seasons. That's a lot of your roster. Nearly half of your starters, and that's not talking about Jiricek and Lindstein who almost certainly will be here in the next 2 years. At that point half your roster is under the age of 24.

[DawgDad]

He clearly needs to send a message. What are we even playing for? I don’t want to keep hearing we are 3pts out of a playoff spot….i guess it’s 5 now so that’s a bonus. This team is absolute hot garbage and there is a serious problem in that locker room and it needs to be addressed before it infects our young players

Question is what’s the message. What’s the identity? The scheme? Army has drafted lean fast players to play a quick transition game. The coaching staff seems to teach a heavy, north south, on the forecheck style we won the Cup with 7 years ago. Surely confusing to your players. The former is the league trend not the latter. Look around the league teams generally don’t play the heavy game anymore. Also your team scoring is dependent on your top 6 producing every night. Generally there’s no supplemental scoring from your D or the bottom 6.

I agree except Florida just went to 3 consecutive Stanley Cup Finals and won 2 with that exact style. If some of the players won't adjust to the system, then get players who will.

Florida's style is what is going to win most of the time.

The Oilers with Gretzky aren't going to be resurrected and neither are the Penguins and Lemieux.

Being able to keep that kind of skill with the salary cap isn't sustainable.

Maybe they don't play a "heavy" game in the regular season but when the playoffs start its a different animal.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying the whole time — the playoffs are a completely different animal. Look at Florida: that team is built for playoff hockey. Same with Tampa — heavy, mean, and miserable to play against when it matters.

Carolina is the perfect example of a great regular-season team that turns into a bunch of passengers in the playoffs because half the roster isn’t built for it. All pace, no bite.

Colorado? They’ll be a wagon in the regular season, no doubt. But come playoff time, don’t be shocked if they’re bounced by the second round. Talent wins you games — playoff hockey needs something else.

The Blues need to pick an identity already. Either you sell and build a heavier team that’s actually made for playoff hockey, or you keep the core, move on from the coach, and bring in someone who wants to play fast. Straddling the fence gets you nowhere.

Florida is loaded with players 27-28 and up in age. If the Blues try to transition to THAT they'll either be loaded with JAGs (terrible) or waiting years.

[callitwhatyouwant]

He clearly needs to send a message. What are we even playing for? I don’t want to keep hearing we are 3pts out of a playoff spot….i guess it’s 5 now so that’s a bonus. This team is absolute hot garbage and there is a serious problem in that locker room and it needs to be addressed before it infects our young players

Question is what’s the message. What’s the identity? The scheme? Army has drafted lean fast players to play a quick transition game. The coaching staff seems to teach a heavy, north south, on the forecheck style we won the Cup with 7 years ago. Surely confusing to your players. The former is the league trend not the latter. Look around the league teams generally don’t play the heavy game anymore. Also your team scoring is dependent on your top 6 producing every night. Generally there’s no supplemental scoring from your D or the bottom 6.

I agree except Florida just went to 3 consecutive Stanley Cup Finals and won 2 with that exact style. If some of the players won't adjust to the system, then get players who will.

Florida's style is what is going to win most of the time.

The Oilers with Gretzky aren't going to be resurrected and neither are the Penguins and Lemieux.

Being able to keep that kind of skill with the salary cap isn't sustainable.

Maybe they don't play a "heavy" game in the regular season but when the playoffs start its a different animal.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying the whole time — the playoffs are a completely different animal. Look at Florida: that team is built for playoff hockey. Same with Tampa — heavy, mean, and miserable to play against when it matters.

Carolina is the perfect example of a great regular-season team that turns into a bunch of passengers in the playoffs because half the roster isn’t built for it. All pace, no bite.

Colorado? They’ll be a wagon in the regular season, no doubt. But come playoff time, don’t be shocked if they’re bounced by the second round. Talent wins you games — playoff hockey needs something else.

The Blues need to pick an identity already. Either you sell and build a heavier team that’s actually made for playoff hockey, or you keep the core, move on from the coach, and bring in someone who wants to play fast. Straddling the fence gets you nowhere.

I can assure you Monty isn't going anywhere. How much of this current roster has Monty's fingerprints on it? Hardly none of it. And I quote, "if the team doesn't start winning now we know it isn't the coaches fault. It's either mine or the players." That is a quote from Army after hiring Monty. Monty is a winner. Has won at every spot he has been at. One of the more high profile coaches in the league. This is on Army's roster construction or the players themselves.

[ManitobaBlues]

He clearly needs to send a message. What are we even playing for? I don’t want to keep hearing we are 3pts out of a playoff spot….i guess it’s 5 now so that’s a bonus. This team is absolute hot garbage and there is a serious problem in that locker room and it needs to be addressed before it infects our young players

Question is what’s the message. What’s the identity? The scheme? Army has drafted lean fast players to play a quick transition game. The coaching staff seems to teach a heavy, north south, on the forecheck style we won the Cup with 7 years ago. Surely confusing to your players. The former is the league trend not the latter. Look around the league teams generally don’t play the heavy game anymore. Also your team scoring is dependent on your top 6 producing every night. Generally there’s no supplemental scoring from your D or the bottom 6.

I agree except Florida just went to 3 consecutive Stanley Cup Finals and won 2 with that exact style. If some of the players won't adjust to the system, then get players who will.

Florida's style is what is going to win most of the time.

The Oilers with Gretzky aren't going to be resurrected and neither are the Penguins and Lemieux.

Being able to keep that kind of skill with the salary cap isn't sustainable.

Maybe they don't play a "heavy" game in the regular season but when the playoffs start its a different animal.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying the whole time — the playoffs are a completely different animal. Look at Florida: that team is built for playoff hockey. Same with Tampa — heavy, mean, and miserable to play against when it matters.

Carolina is the perfect example of a great regular-season team that turns into a bunch of passengers in the playoffs because half the roster isn’t built for it. All pace, no bite.

Colorado? They’ll be a wagon in the regular season, no doubt. But come playoff time, don’t be shocked if they’re bounced by the second round. Talent wins you games — playoff hockey needs something else.

The Blues need to pick an identity already. Either you sell and build a heavier team that’s actually made for playoff hockey, or you keep the core, move on from the coach, and bring in someone who wants to play fast. Straddling the fence gets you nowhere.

Florida is loaded with players 27-28 and up in age. If the Blues try to transition to THAT they'll either be loaded with JAGs (terrible) or waiting years.

I’m not asking for 27–28-year-old players. I’m saying the team needs to decide what kind of team it wants to be. Monty is a 200-foot coach, and we’ve got players who simply can’t play a 200-foot game.

So you either bring in younger guys and groom them into a heavy, structured team — or you move on from Monty and hire a coach who wants to play fast. Pick a lane and commit, because this middle ground isn’t working.

[tfriede2]

you mean the guy who completely turned the NHL world upside down last off season by offer sheeting two top 15 picks and getting both?

That guy has had the game pass him by?

We don't know...those offer sheets might have po'd the good ole boys club and now he's black-listed from trade talk.

Has he made any trades since then? I don't remember any...

Holloway is still bitter and wants to be in EDM and people act like Broberg is a top dman the NHL

It’s kinda funny

Where are you getting that Holloway is bitter? Signing the offer sheet is voluntary yea? It isn't like he was traded to STL against his will like Rantanen or something.

Not saying he is or isn't, as I have no clue, but this is the first I've ever seen that one.

Holloway was very upset and spoke about it. Guys in the know told me even more about it.

He’s bitter at Edmonton but wants to go back to the place he was bitter with? Interesting interpretation, to say the least.

“I’m an Alberta boy” identify is pretty fixed bud. Does that bother you?

Why would that bother me - you’re cracking me up.
“How little Edmonton thought of me,” and “wanted” to go back with them (past tense). These seem to bother you.

[ManitobaBlues]

you mean the guy who completely turned the NHL world upside down last off season by offer sheeting two top 15 picks and getting both?

That guy has had the game pass him by?

We don't know...those offer sheets might have po'd the good ole boys club and now he's black-listed from trade talk.

Has he made any trades since then? I don't remember any...

Holloway is still bitter and wants to be in EDM and people act like Broberg is a top dman the NHL

It’s kinda funny

Where are you getting that Holloway is bitter? Signing the offer sheet is voluntary yea? It isn't like he was traded to STL against his will like Rantanen or something.

Not saying he is or isn't, as I have no clue, but this is the first I've ever seen that one.

Holloway was very upset and spoke about it. Guys in the know told me even more about it.

He’s bitter at Edmonton but wants to go back to the place he was bitter with? Interesting interpretation, to say the least.

“I’m an Alberta boy” identify is pretty fixed bud. Does that bother you?

Why would that bother me - you’re cracking me up.
“How little Edmonton thought of me,” and “wanted” to go back with them (past tense). These seem to bother you.

You don’t understand — when a Stampeder says he’s an Alberta boy, he means it.

[theograce]

you mean the guy who completely turned the NHL world upside down last off season by offer sheeting two top 15 picks and getting both?

That guy has had the game pass him by?

We don't know...those offer sheets might have po'd the good ole boys club and now he's black-listed from trade talk.

Has he made any trades since then? I don't remember any...

Holloway is still bitter and wants to be in EDM and people act like Broberg is a top dman the NHL

It’s kinda funny

Where are you getting that Holloway is bitter? Signing the offer sheet is voluntary yea? It isn't like he was traded to STL against his will like Rantanen or something.

Not saying he is or isn't, as I have no clue, but this is the first I've ever seen that one.

Holloway was very upset and spoke about it. Guys in the know told me even more about it.

He’s bitter at Edmonton but wants to go back to the place he was bitter with? Interesting interpretation, to say the least.

“I’m an Alberta boy” identify is pretty fixed bud. Does that bother you?

Why would that bother me - you’re cracking me up.
“How little Edmonton thought of me,” and “wanted” to go back with them (past tense). These seem to bother you.

No it doesn’t bother me at all. I know he was really hurt by it. He’s the one bothered