I feel I must admit that I've been wrong on Cardinals payroll of the past

[mattmitchl44]

How is it wasting money to spend some money on this season and try to win?

This has been discussed many times before.

It's not about the $$$ spent this year. It's about the fact to spend $$$ this year to the level that you suggest and to "try to win" in 2026, they would almost certainly have to go out and sign a Dylan Cease (7 yrs./$210 million), Pete Alonso (5 yrs./$155 million), Kyle Schwarber (5 yrs./$150 million), etc.

Hence, your effort to "try to win" in 2026 would almost certainly be in vain AND you would likely end up sinking the future 2028, 2029, etc. teams with what will then be bad contracts when they might otherwise actually be ready to "try to win" with a much better core of young cost controlled players.

[alw80]

After looking back through the last 2 decades it's apparent that the Cards have spent money. They're pretty consistently between about 9th to 14th or so. I was a bit surprised at this. Still, payroll is way down right now for no real reason, but they aren't the cheapskates that I thought they were, at least in past years. So this is a mea culpa for not researching sooner and pushing an untruth however unintentional. This probably helps explain why they contended for 2 decades too. So, pile on if you will but the numbers don't lie. They have spent solidly in the upper middle of payroll. The demographics of payroll are changing though. It will require more payroll to stay relevant and I hope after this aberration they'll at least revert back to their norm.

Payroll isn't down "for no real reason".

You're right, there is a reason. The owners don't want to compete this season. Good enough?

They haven't wanted to compete for the last 10 seasons. Now they're actually trying to change that and you're being a little baby about it.

[CCard]

After looking back through the last 2 decades it's apparent that the Cards have spent money. They're pretty consistently between about 9th to 14th or so. I was a bit surprised at this. Still, payroll is way down right now for no real reason, but they aren't the cheapskates that I thought they were, at least in past years. So this is a mea culpa for not researching sooner and pushing an untruth however unintentional. This probably helps explain why they contended for 2 decades too. So, pile on if you will but the numbers don't lie. They have spent solidly in the upper middle of payroll. The demographics of payroll are changing though. It will require more payroll to stay relevant and I hope after this aberration they'll at least revert back to their norm.

Payroll isn't down "for no real reason".

You're right, there is a reason. The owners don't want to compete this season. Good enough?

They haven't wanted to compete for the last 10 seasons. Now they're actually trying to change that and you're being a little baby about it.

Yes, gutting payroll is competing in your feeble mind.

[CCard]

After looking back through the last 2 decades it's apparent that the Cards have spent money. They're pretty consistently between about 9th to 14th or so. I was a bit surprised at this. Still, payroll is way down right now for no real reason, but they aren't the cheapskates that I thought they were, at least in past years. So this is a mea culpa for not researching sooner and pushing an untruth however unintentional. This probably helps explain why they contended for 2 decades too. So, pile on if you will but the numbers don't lie. They have spent solidly in the upper middle of payroll. The demographics of payroll are changing though. It will require more payroll to stay relevant and I hope after this aberration they'll at least revert back to their norm.

Payroll isn't down "for no real reason".

You're right, there is a reason. The owners don't want to compete this season. Good enough?

It’s a rebuild. Look it up.

It's planning to fail in order fore DeWitt to not have expensive contracts going into the CBA and probable lockout. It's also an excuse to get cheap when everyone knows they have the money to add some premium players and try to win.

No, it’s a rebuild.

During a rebuild, payroll decreases, vets are traded for prospects, etc. This is basic rebuild 101…

I look forward to you writing a similar OP to this one in a few years stating that you were once again wrong.

When do the consistently winning teams have their "rebuilds"? This is what you and your ilk are doing...You're excusing a billionaire from putting decent product on the field in some mythical quest for temporary greatness down the road. There's plenty of payroll to put a decent product on the field "for the fans". You've been fooled into this scam as others have. Tanking a team only, and I mean only, benefits the billionaire owners. To make matters even worse, that dreamy pot of gold at the end of the rainbow isn't even guaranteed to be there. Keep up the good work though.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

I believe I explained it pretty well. What didn't you understand?

No, I don’t think you did explain it. You said you never researched it and pushed a lie that the Cardinals were cheapskates and you were surprised that they spent around top third or more overall. You’ve been here under this username for over a year. I’m guessing you were here before over one or more, but maybe not.

But my question was this. How did you spend at least over a year, maybe more, spreading lies? You’re saying it took you that long to actually research it and find the truth. So, what kind of person argues a point that they’ve never actually researched? At any point over the last nearly 1.5 years you never once looked to see if you were correct, until now? You just denied it and you insisted you were right without actually looking? You don’t find that strange?

I’m pretty sure I understand what is actually going on with your OP, but I am very interested to hear your answer for my question.

[AnExParrot]

After looking back through the last 2 decades it's apparent that the Cards have spent money. They're pretty consistently between about 9th to 14th or so. I was a bit surprised at this. Still, payroll is way down right now for no real reason, but they aren't the cheapskates that I thought they were, at least in past years. So this is a mea culpa for not researching sooner and pushing an untruth however unintentional. This probably helps explain why they contended for 2 decades too. So, pile on if you will but the numbers don't lie. They have spent solidly in the upper middle of payroll. The demographics of payroll are changing though. It will require more payroll to stay relevant and I hope after this aberration they'll at least revert back to their norm.

No offense, but why would you argue such a thing? If you didn’t believe it, why not just look it up? There’s an ocean of information available to you.

Like, what would you do when someone told you that the Cardinals spent the way they did? Just deny it for no reason, other than it’s what you believed, and never bother to see if they were correct? That’s very strange.

This was my first thought upon reading the OP, too. It seems he's happy arguing out of complete ignorance.

I guess when people mentioned the team's payroll ranking(s), which you know had to have happened in response to him, he just said "fake news" and continued on, quite happily, in his ignorance.

[CCard]

I believe I explained it pretty well. What didn't you understand?

No, I don’t think you did explain it. You said you never researched it and pushed a lie that the Cardinals were cheapskates and you were surprised that they spent around top third or more overall. You’ve been here under this username for over a year. I’m guessing you were here before over one or more, but maybe not.

But my question was this. How did you spend at least over a year, maybe more, spreading lies? You’re saying it took you that long to actually research it and find the truth. So, what kind of person argues a point that they’ve never actually researched? At any point over the last nearly 1.5 years you never once looked to see if you were correct, until now? You just denied it and you insisted you were right without actually looking? You don’t find that strange?

I’m pretty sure I understand what is actually going on with your OP, but I am very interested to hear your answer for my question.

1. You just basically repeated what I posted. With the caveat that what I called laboring under a misconception you call a lie. I won't respond to your goading on that though.
2. I'm sure you intimately know and can relate the intricacies of the financial minutia of baseball and it's teams. LOL
3. They are gutting payroll and that is evident, so yeah.
4. Quick, off the top of your head, what was the payroll of the Cards from 1982 to 1990? That's what I thought. No need to answer, I know you'd have to look it up. It's rhetorical.

In summation, I post that after going back through the long history of the Cardinals over the last few decades that I came to the realization that they spent right around league average to above it a bit. I posted as such because I had a misconception that they were cheap bastards, though to be fair, ownership had change during that period. But even as I have made my mea culpa you jump in with both feet in some sort of misguided "gotcha" moment that I couldn't be less inclined to pay attention too. I will in the interest of fostering some sort of decent and civil debate answer this time however. But I won't be drawn in any further into some pissing contest over semantics.

[Cardinals4Life]

How is it wasting money to spend some money on this season and try to win?

This has been discussed many times before.

It's not about the $$$ spent this year. It's about the fact to spend $$$ this year to the level that you suggest and to "try to win" in 2026, they would almost certainly have to go out and sign a Dylan Cease (7 yrs./$210 million), Pete Alonso (5 yrs./$155 million), Kyle Schwarber (5 yrs./$150 million), etc.

Hence, your effort to "try to win" in 2026 would almost certainly be in vain AND you would likely end up sinking the future 2028, 2029, etc. teams with what will then be bad contracts when they might otherwise actually be ready to "try to win" with a much better core of young cost controlled players.

Then go offer some lucrative 1 year deals. Offer Suarez 1 year/35 M. Be hard to pass that up AND have the chance to become a free agent again next year. (Just an out of the box example.)

[ecleme22]

After looking back through the last 2 decades it's apparent that the Cards have spent money. They're pretty consistently between about 9th to 14th or so. I was a bit surprised at this. Still, payroll is way down right now for no real reason, but they aren't the cheapskates that I thought they were, at least in past years. So this is a mea culpa for not researching sooner and pushing an untruth however unintentional. This probably helps explain why they contended for 2 decades too. So, pile on if you will but the numbers don't lie. They have spent solidly in the upper middle of payroll. The demographics of payroll are changing though. It will require more payroll to stay relevant and I hope after this aberration they'll at least revert back to their norm.

Payroll isn't down "for no real reason".

You're right, there is a reason. The owners don't want to compete this season. Good enough?

It’s a rebuild. Look it up.

It's planning to fail in order fore DeWitt to not have expensive contracts going into the CBA and probable lockout. It's also an excuse to get cheap when everyone knows they have the money to add some premium players and try to win.

No, it’s a rebuild.

During a rebuild, payroll decreases, vets are traded for prospects, etc. This is basic rebuild 101…

I look forward to you writing a similar OP to this one in a few years stating that you were once again wrong.

When do the consistently winning teams have their "rebuilds"? This is what you and your ilk are doing...You're excusing a billionaire from putting decent product on the field in some mythical quest for temporary greatness down the road. There's plenty of payroll to put a decent product on the field "for the fans". You've been fooled into this scam as others have. Tanking a team only, and I mean only, benefits the billionaire owners. To make matters even worse, that dreamy pot of gold at the end of the rainbow isn't even guaranteed to be there. Keep up the good work though.

I would say most if not every 2025 playoff team experienced a ‘reset’ or ‘rebuild’ at lease once in the last 15-20 years.

As of now, youre kind of embarrassing yourself.

I’ve seriously never thought I would see this much whining over Gray, Contreras, Arenado and Donovan.

Bloom just flipped Gray and WC for TWO major league starters and 4 prospects. We traded 3 years of total control for potentially 30 years of control. And as much as I loved WC, we have internal 1b options.

You already admitted you were wrong about the Cards being cheap (see OP). This is just another example of you being wrong…

[mattmitchl44]

How is it wasting money to spend some money on this season and try to win?

This has been discussed many times before.

It's not about the $$$ spent this year. It's about the fact to spend $$$ this year to the level that you suggest and to "try to win" in 2026, they would almost certainly have to go out and sign a Dylan Cease (7 yrs./$210 million), Pete Alonso (5 yrs./$155 million), Kyle Schwarber (5 yrs./$150 million), etc.

Hence, your effort to "try to win" in 2026 would almost certainly be in vain AND you would likely end up sinking the future 2028, 2029, etc. teams with what will then be bad contracts when they might otherwise actually be ready to "try to win" with a much better core of young cost controlled players.

Then go offer some lucrative 1 year deals. Offer Suarez 1 year/35 M. Be hard to pass that up AND have the chance to become a free agent again next year. (Just an out of the box example.)

Then you are just spending an obscene amount of money in 2026 to not be competitive. If you are overpaying by that much for good but not great players (like a Suarez), how is that anything other than window dressing for a non-competitive 2026 season?

Better to take shots with guys like Dustin May for a lot less but who have upside potential to outplay their contract and be tradable in 2026.

[Cardinals4Life]

How is it wasting money to spend some money on this season and try to win?

This has been discussed many times before.

It's not about the $$$ spent this year. It's about the fact to spend $$$ this year to the level that you suggest and to "try to win" in 2026, they would almost certainly have to go out and sign a Dylan Cease (7 yrs./$210 million), Pete Alonso (5 yrs./$155 million), Kyle Schwarber (5 yrs./$150 million), etc.

Hence, your effort to "try to win" in 2026 would almost certainly be in vain AND you would likely end up sinking the future 2028, 2029, etc. teams with what will then be bad contracts when they might otherwise actually be ready to "try to win" with a much better core of young cost controlled players.

Then go offer some lucrative 1 year deals. Offer Suarez 1 year/35 M. Be hard to pass that up AND have the chance to become a free agent again next year. (Just an out of the box example.)

Then you are just spending an obscene amount of money in 2026 to not be competitive. If you are overpaying by that much for good but not great players (like a Suarez), how is that anything other than window dressing for a non-competitive 2026 season?

Better to take shots with guys like Dustin May for a lot less but who have upside potential to outplay their contract and be tradable in 2026.

Yeah, Suarez's 49 bombs wouldn't help.

[ilcubuffs]

Spending money on below avg MLB talent and contracts/extensions diametrically opposed to success. Whether your payroll is $1 or A$300M if you implement the aforementioned you will end up the 2025-26 Cardinals NOT the Dodgers.

[ecleme22]

How is it wasting money to spend some money on this season and try to win?

This has been discussed many times before.

It's not about the $$$ spent this year. It's about the fact to spend $$$ this year to the level that you suggest and to "try to win" in 2026, they would almost certainly have to go out and sign a Dylan Cease (7 yrs./$210 million), Pete Alonso (5 yrs./$155 million), Kyle Schwarber (5 yrs./$150 million), etc.

Hence, your effort to "try to win" in 2026 would almost certainly be in vain AND you would likely end up sinking the future 2028, 2029, etc. teams with what will then be bad contracts when they might otherwise actually be ready to "try to win" with a much better core of young cost controlled players.

Then go offer some lucrative 1 year deals. Offer Suarez 1 year/35 M. Be hard to pass that up AND have the chance to become a free agent again next year. (Just an out of the box example.)

Then you are just spending an obscene amount of money in 2026 to not be competitive. If you are overpaying by that much for good but not great players (like a Suarez), how is that anything other than window dressing for a non-competitive 2026 season?

Better to take shots with guys like Dustin May for a lot less but who have upside potential to outplay their contract and be tradable in 2026.

Yeah, Suarez's 49 bombs wouldn't help.

How much would you sign him for?

[AnExParrot]

I believe I explained it pretty well. What didn't you understand?

No, I don’t think you did explain it. You said you never researched it and pushed a lie that the Cardinals were cheapskates and you were surprised that they spent around top third or more overall. You’ve been here under this username for over a year. I’m guessing you were here before over one or more, but maybe not.

But my question was this. How did you spend at least over a year, maybe more, spreading lies? You’re saying it took you that long to actually research it and find the truth. So, what kind of person argues a point that they’ve never actually researched? At any point over the last nearly 1.5 years you never once looked to see if you were correct, until now? You just denied it and you insisted you were right without actually looking? You don’t find that strange?

I’m pretty sure I understand what is actually going on with your OP, but I am very interested to hear your answer for my question.

1. You just basically repeated what I posted. With the caveat that what I called laboring under a misconception you call a lie. I won't respond to your goading on that though.
2. I'm sure you intimately know and can relate the intricacies of the financial minutia of baseball and it's teams. LOL
3. They are gutting payroll and that is evident, so yeah.
4. Quick, off the top of your head, what was the payroll of the Cards from 1982 to 1990? That's what I thought. No need to answer, I know you'd have to look it up. It's rhetorical.

In summation, I post that after going back through the long history of the Cardinals over the last few decades that I came to the realization that they spent right around league average to above it a bit. I posted as such because I had a misconception that they were cheap bastards, though to be fair, ownership had change during that period. But even as I have made my mea culpa you jump in with both feet in some sort of misguided "gotcha" moment that I couldn't be less inclined to pay attention too. I will in the interest of fostering some sort of decent and civil debate answer this time however. But I won't be drawn in any further into some pissing contest over semantics.

It's not a pissing contest over semantics. He's asked why you would argue a point from total ignorance, you still haven't answered.

[Cardinals4Life]

How is it wasting money to spend some money on this season and try to win?

This has been discussed many times before.

It's not about the $$$ spent this year. It's about the fact to spend $$$ this year to the level that you suggest and to "try to win" in 2026, they would almost certainly have to go out and sign a Dylan Cease (7 yrs./$210 million), Pete Alonso (5 yrs./$155 million), Kyle Schwarber (5 yrs./$150 million), etc.

Hence, your effort to "try to win" in 2026 would almost certainly be in vain AND you would likely end up sinking the future 2028, 2029, etc. teams with what will then be bad contracts when they might otherwise actually be ready to "try to win" with a much better core of young cost controlled players.

Then go offer some lucrative 1 year deals. Offer Suarez 1 year/35 M. Be hard to pass that up AND have the chance to become a free agent again next year. (Just an out of the box example.)

Then you are just spending an obscene amount of money in 2026 to not be competitive. If you are overpaying by that much for good but not great players (like a Suarez), how is that anything other than window dressing for a non-competitive 2026 season?

Better to take shots with guys like Dustin May for a lot less but who have upside potential to outplay their contract and be tradable in 2026.

Yeah, Suarez's 49 bombs wouldn't help.

How much would you sign him for?

Offer him big $ on a 1 year deal. Give hkm a shot at FA again next year. If we are out of it by the trade deadline, he would be in high demand. We have the money in this year's budget to do it. Why not? Seen enough of Gorman anyway.

[Imperial Capitalist]

We have the makings of that core, but we need more. Our top priority will be to build our talent base for the long term.

“That may mean hard decisions and short-term sacrifices, but to get where we want to go we can’t take short cuts and we won’t. We will always want to win and we will hunt moves and decisions that allow us to do that right now too as long as they also serve our ultimate goal.

“When we have to chose between short-term gratification and our bigger goal of contending consistently, we will choose the long term. We will make moves with that ultimate goal in mind because simply put that’s where this organization needs to be.”

It's only been three months, but it's apparent some need a refresher on what he said.

And, within the context of his statements, after having traded Gray & Contreras (to build the talent base), and presumably Donovan (to do the same), how does offering a shock value 1-yr mega-deal to a player for purposes of contending fit into all of that?