The CT Philosophical Divide

[zuck698]

There has never been a time in modern Cards history where the org has traded all vets and told their fans that they are rebuilding by stocking the minor league system, hoping some players matriculate to the big club and then and only then will they spend money on vets. This is stupidly asinine and there will be NO Fans sitting in Busch Whenever this magical time in the future occurs.

Honestly, why should anyone go? Are people supposed to be that jacked about Ivan Herrera? Alec Burleson?

Poor JJ Wetherholt. I’m excited for the kid, too. However, he may make the club out of Spring Trainings as a Rookie. That’s a lot to put on his shoulder when the team is already in the hole 3-0

I wouldn’t blame the fans for showing up less than the Marlins fans do. There is no incentive

I understand the need to re-stock the minor league org. It has been mismanaged and under coached for many years. I don't think anyone here can really argue that point. But it would be nice to have some hope every year, while this minor league revitalization takes place. And who knows, maybe Bloom will come thru and find a few diamonds before the season begins? These diamonds may come from more trades or free agent signings. These diamonds may not be the best or even long- term diamonds, but just shiny enough, to create a sense of possibly competing for a chance to get into the "dance". We won the "dance" in 06 and 11, and neither time were we considered World Series favorites, by any means. But we made the "dance" and won it all. The stadium was packed and the games were exciting, all the way to the end.

Those who say, "why are we worried about Bill's pockets", do make a valid argument, in my opinion. While fans are not guaranteed to have a winning team every year, I do think Cards fans have more than held up their end of the bargain with attendance, until just recently. That end is no longer being held up on our side, because management has not held up their end now for several years. I won't rehash all the poor trades, signings, etc., we all agree to those issues. But I do know that no one sets thru a 10 episode Netflix series, when the reviews of the first 7 episodes, are garbage! They just don't magically show up for episodes 8-10, based upon promises that they will be better. More people will watch all the episodes, if there was at least some excitement in episodes 1-3. The walk and chew gum argument is what many of us would like to see. No reason we can't keep payroll high while the rebuild takes place. None, except for excuses and the lack of will to do so. The excuses will cause people to tune out long before episode 4. Even with this rant, I think Bloom has done some good things, and he is hopefully on the right path to rebuilding a once proud organization. I just wish Bill would give him the same financial resources that Mo had. Bloom isn't Mo, and he deserves to be judged under the same circumstances of payroll. Uncle Bill will not be in the soup line by giving him that If Bloom was awarded the same dollars, and used those dollars for some decently priced diamonds, then more people will watch and be excited thru the entire 10 show series, and they won't tune out so early. Again, no one watches the first 7 (bleep) episodes, and stays tuned for episode 8, it just doesn't happen! As a business owner, client retention and satisfaction is my number one priority. Once a client is lost, there is no guarantee that I will ever get that client back. We have just witnessed several years of (bleep) baseball, and we are just supposedly to blindly trust the same ownership group that led us to here? We should never prosper to be the Rays, the Brewers, the Marlins, etc.. This is St. Louis and we deserve better than that.

[Bushiro]

Big market teams are spending more. That’s why I support not only a ceiling on spending but also a floor.

However that has absolutely nothing to do with the Cardinal issues. ITS POOR DECISIOM MAKING!!! Poor talent evaluation. Poor development. Poor spending habits. Poor revenue management, ie TV deal. Poor planning. Poor focus.

Well stated. This teardown/rebuild would've been completely unnecessary with a just reasonable level of competence.

Back to the OP, the entire problem with trying to be a "light" version of the big spenders is that a mid market team has no room for ANY errors, let alone the multiple errors that Mo committed in his last decade. The big market teams can absorb those errors and just spend more money, but they are crippling for a team like the Cards.

That's why to be successful smaller markets have to build a team cheaply that can compete even without those big contracts, which is what TB, Cleveland, and lately Milwaukee have been able to do consistently.

Imagine Milwaukee or Cleveland in this year's playoffs if they had had Alonso at 1B or Bregman at 3B, or Blake Snell or Max Fried. All mattmitch is saying is that's what the Cards should aspire to be.

He says it every hour on the hour. Most of us don't want to be "light big spenders". We realize the pile of bad decision making has led to a period where the farm needed attention. I, and many others, reject the notion that no other moves should be considered in the name of tanking. When opportunity knocks, and if it does not entail mortgaging the future, then it should at least be considered.

I'd also add that the TB, Milwaukee, Cleveland model has netter zero world series titles, which is the primary justification those like him use for the teardown/rebuild. We need our own plan...not theirs.

What annoys me with this poster is his insistence on writing these narratives telling us how we think.

He never said to be just like those teams...he said they should have a model similar to those teams...with the difference being.... once there is a young core established.... the cards have the finances/payroll ability to add a few big time players to become a very serious contender....but they shouldn't and they won't spend that money now

[juan good eye]

The OP made the idiots self identify pretty quick.

Thank you matt for doing the lord’s work here. Could use your support on BT.

[BleedingBleu]

There has never been a time in modern Cards history where the org has traded all vets and told their fans that they are rebuilding by stocking the minor league system, hoping some players matriculate to the big club and then and only then will they spend money on vets. This is stupidly asinine and there will be NO Fans sitting in Busch Whenever this magical time in the future occurs.

Honestly, why should anyone go? Are people supposed to be that jacked about Ivan Herrera? Alec Burleson?

Poor JJ Wetherholt. I’m excited for the kid, too. However, he may make the club out of Spring Trainings as a Rookie. That’s a lot to put on his shoulder when the team is already in the hole 3-0

I wouldn’t blame the fans for showing up less than the Marlins fans do. There is no incentive

I understand the need to re-stock the minor league org. It has been mismanaged and under coached for many years. I don't think anyone here can really argue that point. But it would be nice to have some hope every year, while this minor league revitalization takes place. And who knows, maybe Bloom will come thru and find a few diamonds before the season begins? These diamonds may come from more trades or free agent signings. These diamonds may not be the best or even long- term diamonds, but just shiny enough, to create a sense of possibly competing for a chance to get into the "dance". We won the "dance" in 06 and 11, and neither time were we considered World Series favorites, by any means. But we made the "dance" and won it all. The stadium was packed and the games were exciting, all the way to the end.

Those who say, "why are we worried about Bill's pockets", do make a valid argument, in my opinion. While fans are not guaranteed to have a winning team every year, I do think Cards fans have more than held up their end of the bargain with attendance, until just recently. That end is no longer being held up on our side, because management has not held up their end now for several years. I won't rehash all the poor trades, signings, etc., we all agree to those issues. But I do know that no one sets thru a 10 episode Netflix series, when the reviews of the first 7 episodes, are garbage! They just don't magically show up for episodes 8-10, based upon promises that they will be better. More people will watch all the episodes, if there was at least some excitement in episodes 1-3. The walk and chew gum argument is what many of us would like to see. No reason we can't keep payroll high while the rebuild takes place. None, except for excuses and the lack of will to do so. The excuses will cause people to tune out long before episode 4. Even with this rant, I think Bloom has done some good things, and he is hopefully on the right path to rebuilding a once proud organization. I just wish Bill would give him the same financial resources that Mo had. Bloom isn't Mo, and he deserves to be judged under the same circumstances of payroll. Uncle Bill will not be in the soup line by giving him that If Bloom was awarded the same dollars, and used those dollars for some decently priced diamonds, then more people will watch and be excited thru the entire 10 show series, and they won't tune out so early. Again, no one watches the first 7 (bleep) episodes, and stays tuned for episode 8, it just doesn't happen! As a business owner, client retention and satisfaction is my number one priority. Once a client is lost, there is no guarantee that I will ever get that client back. We have just witnessed several years of (bleep) baseball, and we are just supposedly to blindly trust the same ownership group that led us to here? We should never prosper to be the Rays, the Brewers, the Marlins, etc.. This is St. Louis and we deserve better than that.

Your Netflix show comparison was genius. I’ve got nothing further to add other than that compliment and agreement.

[mattmitchl44]

I don’t think that’s the case at all. The Cardinals made lots of bad decisions that lead to their current demise. It wasn’t because they were trying to keep up with the Jones, it’s because they were paralyzed to make the right move when they realized how far behind the right-ball their front office had become.

1.) Luhnow humiliated them.
Not only did they get caught “hacking” his database in Houston, but they arrogant outed themselves.

Then, Luhnow started winning and baseball became overly interested in what he had to say, like trimming down the farm. So, the Cardinals, who made their nut as a franchise because they basically invented the farm and at one point had THIRTY-THREE teams under their umbrella, followed that philosophy by cutting an entire level off.

2.) The Cardinals refused to offer mega contracts to the 26 Year Old Star Free Agents, instead choosing to… trade asset for older veterans.

So, rather than sign Bryce Harper at 26 (who eventually agreed to a $330M/13), they traded for 31 year old Paul Goldschmidt for $130M/5. Bryce Harper just now turned 33.

3.) They traded 2 OUTSTANDING COST CONTROLLED PITCHERS for a Left Fielder with a shoulder injury and the mental capacity of an 11 year old. Those two pitchers would be in constant discussion for Cy Young. Their LFer was known for a Strip Club brawl and one of the more hilarious blooper plays of all time.

4.) Rather than invest in star players, they overcompensated by overpaying on complimentary players like Dexter Fowler.

5.) They were so paralyzed by their ineptitude, they kept handing out extensions to their own players like Matt Carpenter, Miles Mikolas, Adam Wainwright, etc.

6.) Everyone was fleecing this Front Office because they were so inadequate that they not only couldn’t properly evaluate their own players in-house, but they couldn’t properly develop the ones they had. It became a running joke when players would go elsewhere and thrive.

7.) Choosing Rookie Managers over proven World Series pedigree

8.) Nerds w/access databases unable to evaluate nor develop their own players ousting proven veteran scouts and coaches in the minors

Being an “mid-market” team isn’t an excuse for having operational malfeasance in your front office.

None of that really has much to do with the point made in the OP.

But, sure, more than one thing can be true. The Cardinals have been, until Bloom, pursuing a poorly constructed philosophy AND doing it badly.

You have to be the most smug poster ever. Your OP is simply a false explanation of what you THINK those who disagree with your tired narrative thinks.

Newsflash…no one on this board knows [shirt] about running an MLB team. If we did, we’d be doing it. We’re are FANS, nothing more nothing less. Some more delusional than others.

Some want to spend on experienced and more talented players. Some desire only precious prospects. And guess what…some want a balanced mix of both. Why does that torment your soul?

It doesn't. At all. Why do you keep insisting that it does?

As I note above, and have noted every time this comes up, the Cardinals WILL NEED TO SPEND on expensive veterans - and spend more than a Milwaukee or Cleveland - to fill gaps on their roster. I keep having to repeat that over and over again, apparently. It is literally right in the OP:

...a foundation of young, cost controlled players and less dependence on expensive veterans, but still able to spend more on such veterans than teams like Milwaukee.

The ONLY thing I reject is the mind-numbing petulance that they MUST SPEND TO THEIR LIMIT RIGHT NOW for 2026. 2026 is a moot point. It's dead, IMO. And that's OK.

The only way they can spend to their $170, $180, etc. million limit RIGHT NOW isn't by sensibly signing Dustin Mays to short 1 or 2 year deals. They can only spend to their $170, $180, etc. million limit RIGHT NOW by going out and chaining themselves to more really expensive veterans on longer term contracts. Right now, those are almost certainly NOT going to be wise investments for a team in no position to be competitive in 2026 (or probably 2027) anyway. There is no reason to take on another "Nolan Arenado" contract right now.

The issue isn't how much they are, or are not, spending in 2026. The issue is WHO they would have to commit themselves to for 3, 4, 5 years down the road in order to spend as much as you demand they spend right now.

That's false. Munetaka Murakami just signed for 2 years $34M. Moderate risk, significant upside, short term. Definately not another Arenado type contract.

If the Cardinals had a strong positive evaluation of Murakami, I wouldn't have been against them signing him to a deal on those terms.

However, given what he did ultimately sign for, it seems like teams across the league had a much more conservative take on how his skill would translate to MLB than expected (estimates had him getting 6-7 yrs. at $22 million a year). So the consensus across MLB seems to be that he is far from a slam dunk to be a difference maker for any team in 2026.

[CorneliusWolfe]

There has never been a time in modern Cards history where the org has traded all vets and told their fans that they are rebuilding by stocking the minor league system, hoping some players matriculate to the big club and then and only then will they spend money on vets. This is stupidly asinine and there will be NO Fans sitting in Busch Whenever this magical time in the future occurs.

Honestly, why should anyone go? Are people supposed to be that jacked about Ivan Herrera? Alec Burleson?

Poor JJ Wetherholt. I’m excited for the kid, too. However, he may make the club out of Spring Trainings as a Rookie. That’s a lot to put on his shoulder when the team is already in the hole 3-0

I wouldn’t blame the fans for showing up less than the Marlins fans do. There is no incentive

I understand the need to re-stock the minor league org. It has been mismanaged and under coached for many years. I don't think anyone here can really argue that point. But it would be nice to have some hope every year, while this minor league revitalization takes place. And who knows, maybe Bloom will come thru and find a few diamonds before the season begins? These diamonds may come from more trades or free agent signings. These diamonds may not be the best or even long- term diamonds, but just shiny enough, to create a sense of possibly competing for a chance to get into the "dance". We won the "dance" in 06 and 11, and neither time were we considered World Series favorites, by any means. But we made the "dance" and won it all. The stadium was packed and the games were exciting, all the way to the end.

Those who say, "why are we worried about Bill's pockets", do make a valid argument, in my opinion. While fans are not guaranteed to have a winning team every year, I do think Cards fans have more than held up their end of the bargain with attendance, until just recently. That end is no longer being held up on our side, because management has not held up their end now for several years. I won't rehash all the poor trades, signings, etc., we all agree to those issues. But I do know that no one sets thru a 10 episode Netflix series, when the reviews of the first 7 episodes, are garbage! They just don't magically show up for episodes 8-10, based upon promises that they will be better. More people will watch all the episodes, if there was at least some excitement in episodes 1-3. The walk and chew gum argument is what many of us would like to see. No reason we can't keep payroll high while the rebuild takes place. None, except for excuses and the lack of will to do so. The excuses will cause people to tune out long before episode 4. Even with this rant, I think Bloom has done some good things, and he is hopefully on the right path to rebuilding a once proud organization. I just wish Bill would give him the same financial resources that Mo had. Bloom isn't Mo, and he deserves to be judged under the same circumstances of payroll. Uncle Bill will not be in the soup line by giving him that If Bloom was awarded the same dollars, and used those dollars for some decently priced diamonds, then more people will watch and be excited thru the entire 10 show series, and they won't tune out so early. Again, no one watches the first 7 (bleep) episodes, and stays tuned for episode 8, it just doesn't happen! As a business owner, client retention and satisfaction is my number one priority. Once a client is lost, there is no guarantee that I will ever get that client back. We have just witnessed several years of (bleep) baseball, and we are just supposedly to blindly trust the same ownership group that led us to here? We should never prosper to be the Rays, the Brewers, the Marlins, etc.. This is St. Louis and we deserve better than that.

Your Netflix show comparison was genius. I’ve got nothing further to add other than that compliment and agreement.

This is exactly the stance of those who don't want to tank and wait several years before ANY spending. No foolish spending, continue to restock the minors and build assets and foundation, but no need to not have at least a healthy payroll because the fans sold out the park for many years and shouldn't be blamed for lower attandance the last two years.

Yet we're called short-sighted, idiots, we want a $300 million payroll, we want more Arenado's, we don't want a good foundation of youing talent, we still want Dylan Carlson back (yes, I've even heard that one) and we love Gorman and Walker...and the list goes on. Constant insults for any stance that doesn't 100% back everything ownership does.

[BleedingBleu]

There has never been a time in modern Cards history where the org has traded all vets and told their fans that they are rebuilding by stocking the minor league system, hoping some players matriculate to the big club and then and only then will they spend money on vets. This is stupidly asinine and there will be NO Fans sitting in Busch Whenever this magical time in the future occurs.

Honestly, why should anyone go? Are people supposed to be that jacked about Ivan Herrera? Alec Burleson?

Poor JJ Wetherholt. I’m excited for the kid, too. However, he may make the club out of Spring Trainings as a Rookie. That’s a lot to put on his shoulder when the team is already in the hole 3-0

I wouldn’t blame the fans for showing up less than the Marlins fans do. There is no incentive

I understand the need to re-stock the minor league org. It has been mismanaged and under coached for many years. I don't think anyone here can really argue that point. But it would be nice to have some hope every year, while this minor league revitalization takes place. And who knows, maybe Bloom will come thru and find a few diamonds before the season begins? These diamonds may come from more trades or free agent signings. These diamonds may not be the best or even long- term diamonds, but just shiny enough, to create a sense of possibly competing for a chance to get into the "dance". We won the "dance" in 06 and 11, and neither time were we considered World Series favorites, by any means. But we made the "dance" and won it all. The stadium was packed and the games were exciting, all the way to the end.

Those who say, "why are we worried about Bill's pockets", do make a valid argument, in my opinion. While fans are not guaranteed to have a winning team every year, I do think Cards fans have more than held up their end of the bargain with attendance, until just recently. That end is no longer being held up on our side, because management has not held up their end now for several years. I won't rehash all the poor trades, signings, etc., we all agree to those issues. But I do know that no one sets thru a 10 episode Netflix series, when the reviews of the first 7 episodes, are garbage! They just don't magically show up for episodes 8-10, based upon promises that they will be better. More people will watch all the episodes, if there was at least some excitement in episodes 1-3. The walk and chew gum argument is what many of us would like to see. No reason we can't keep payroll high while the rebuild takes place. None, except for excuses and the lack of will to do so. The excuses will cause people to tune out long before episode 4. Even with this rant, I think Bloom has done some good things, and he is hopefully on the right path to rebuilding a once proud organization. I just wish Bill would give him the same financial resources that Mo had. Bloom isn't Mo, and he deserves to be judged under the same circumstances of payroll. Uncle Bill will not be in the soup line by giving him that If Bloom was awarded the same dollars, and used those dollars for some decently priced diamonds, then more people will watch and be excited thru the entire 10 show series, and they won't tune out so early. Again, no one watches the first 7 (bleep) episodes, and stays tuned for episode 8, it just doesn't happen! As a business owner, client retention and satisfaction is my number one priority. Once a client is lost, there is no guarantee that I will ever get that client back. We have just witnessed several years of (bleep) baseball, and we are just supposedly to blindly trust the same ownership group that led us to here? We should never prosper to be the Rays, the Brewers, the Marlins, etc.. This is St. Louis and we deserve better than that.

Your Netflix show comparison was genius. I’ve got nothing further to add other than that compliment and agreement.

This is exactly the stance of those who don't want to tank and wait several years before ANY spending. No foolish spending, continue to restock the minors and build assets and foundation, but no need to not have at least a healthy payroll because the fans sold out the park for many years and shouldn't be blamed for lower attandance the last two years.

Yet we're called short-sighted, idiots, we want a $300 million payroll, we want more Arenado's, we don't want a good foundation of youing talent, we still want Dylan Carlson back (yes, I've even heard that one) and we love Gorman and Walker...and the list goes on. Constant insults for any stance that doesn't 100% back everything ownership does.

My contention is, I want to root for the Cardinals and want the Cardinals to win. If we’re tanking this year; which appears to be the case, then I’m not going to give a sh¡t about this team. Why would anyone? Add in the inevitable Lockout and we’re looking at 2 years straight of not rooting for or caring about the Cardinals.

Now, they very well could emerge in 2027/28 off-season as a serious buyer/contender. However, the Cardinals will likely have a harder hill to climb. Not only will they have nuked the fans goodwill, but their revenues for this season and next would have cratered. This includes Ballpark Village; which will certainly feel a hit when the lack of traffic hits downtown due to low population density, low activity.

Who is replacing that 35-40K through the turnstiles 82x? It’s not the bustling neighborhoods surrounding downtown. It’s not the vacant offices who’ve jumped ship to Clayton or elsewhere (looking at you AT&T).

There’s no two ways about it. They’re fuqued and their fuquing over the customers.

[mattmitchl44]

This is exactly the stance of those who don't want to tank and wait several years before ANY spending. No foolish spending, continue to restock the minors and build assets and foundation, but no need to not have at least a healthy payroll because the fans sold out the park for many years and shouldn't be blamed for lower attandance the last two years.

No one has called for "no spending."

However, if you've taken a look at the FA market so far, it's very difficult to square what you would consider a "healthy payroll" for 2026 with "no foolish spending."

If you are asking them to go spend $80, $90, etc. million in order to have what you consider a "healthy payroll", a good deal of it is likely going to look like "foolish spending" - if not in 2026 then by 2027, 2028, 2029.

Spend as much as they want on guys like May on 1-2 yr. contracts. Sign an Austin Hays, Miguel Andujar, a couple of middle relievers, etc. But if they limit themselves to such signings, they will almost certainly keep the 2026 payroll down significantly and win like 75-80 games in 2026.

Will that satisfy you?

[CorneliusWolfe]

This is exactly the stance of those who don't want to tank and wait several years before ANY spending. No foolish spending, continue to restock the minors and build assets and foundation, but no need to not have at least a healthy payroll because the fans sold out the park for many years and shouldn't be blamed for lower attandance the last two years.

No one has called for "no spending."

However, if you've taken a look at the FA market so far, it's very difficult to square what you would consider a "healthy payroll" for 2026 with "no foolish spending."

If you are asking them to go spend $80, $90, etc. million in order to have what you consider a "healthy payroll", a good deal of it is likely going to look like "foolish spending" - if not in 2026 then by 2027, 2028, 2029.

Spend as much as they want on guys like May on 1-2 yr. contracts. Sign an Austin Hays, Miguel Andujar, a couple of middle relievers, etc. But if they limit themselves to such signings, they will almost certainly keep the 2026 payroll down significantly and win like 75-80 games in 2026.

Will that satisfy you?

I liked the May signing and would welcome more moves like that, and I like a lot of the ones you mentioned too, as long as their not blocking young guys who are actually earning their playing time. At least that leaves some hope, and I think it *could* result in better than 75-80 games. Maybe that would be the floor but the right moves might get them sniffing 90 with a wildcard possibility.

It's not about personal satisifaction, it's about due diligence and giving fans a reason to watch. Personally, I'd like a reason to renew my MLBTV subsription because I haven't lived in the local areas for many years but still love following the team. Not everyone is such a diehard that they will find it entertaining to see hope through prospect development only on a non-competitive team. Like any pro sport, it should be entertaining, and when the team is decent, STL fans find it entertaining, even if they don't go all the way.

On another note...Merry Christmas. My apologies for the occasional snark. We just go back and forth so much it's hard to avoid sometimes! Hope you have a good one.

[mattmitchl44]

This is exactly the stance of those who don't want to tank and wait several years before ANY spending. No foolish spending, continue to restock the minors and build assets and foundation, but no need to not have at least a healthy payroll because the fans sold out the park for many years and shouldn't be blamed for lower attandance the last two years.

No one has called for "no spending."

However, if you've taken a look at the FA market so far, it's very difficult to square what you would consider a "healthy payroll" for 2026 with "no foolish spending."

If you are asking them to go spend $80, $90, etc. million in order to have what you consider a "healthy payroll", a good deal of it is likely going to look like "foolish spending" - if not in 2026 then by 2027, 2028, 2029.

Spend as much as they want on guys like May on 1-2 yr. contracts. Sign an Austin Hays, Miguel Andujar, a couple of middle relievers, etc. But if they limit themselves to such signings, they will almost certainly keep the 2026 payroll down significantly and win like 75-80 games in 2026.

Will that satisfy you?

I liked the May signing and would welcome more moves like that, and I like a lot of the ones you mentioned too, as long as their not blocking young guys who are actually earning their playing time. At least that leaves some hope, and I think it *could* result in better than 75-80 games. Maybe that would be the floor but the right moves might get them sniffing 90 with a wildcard possibility.

It's not about personal satisifaction, it's about due diligence and giving fans a reason to watch. Personally, I'd like a reason to renew my MLBTV subsription because I haven't lived in the local areas for many years but still love following the team. Not everyone is such a diehard that they will find it entertaining to see hope through prospect development only on a non-competitive team. Like any pro sport, it should be entertaining, and when the team is decent, STL fans find it entertaining, even if they don't go all the way.

On another note...Merry Christmas. My apologies for the occasional snark. We just go back and forth so much it's hard to avoid sometimes! Hope you have a good one.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

[zuck698]

There has never been a time in modern Cards history where the org has traded all vets and told their fans that they are rebuilding by stocking the minor league system, hoping some players matriculate to the big club and then and only then will they spend money on vets. This is stupidly asinine and there will be NO Fans sitting in Busch Whenever this magical time in the future occurs.

Honestly, why should anyone go? Are people supposed to be that jacked about Ivan Herrera? Alec Burleson?

Poor JJ Wetherholt. I’m excited for the kid, too. However, he may make the club out of Spring Trainings as a Rookie. That’s a lot to put on his shoulder when the team is already in the hole 3-0

I wouldn’t blame the fans for showing up less than the Marlins fans do. There is no incentive

I understand the need to re-stock the minor league org. It has been mismanaged and under coached for many years. I don't think anyone here can really argue that point. But it would be nice to have some hope every year, while this minor league revitalization takes place. And who knows, maybe Bloom will come thru and find a few diamonds before the season begins? These diamonds may come from more trades or free agent signings. These diamonds may not be the best or even long- term diamonds, but just shiny enough, to create a sense of possibly competing for a chance to get into the "dance". We won the "dance" in 06 and 11, and neither time were we considered World Series favorites, by any means. But we made the "dance" and won it all. The stadium was packed and the games were exciting, all the way to the end.

Those who say, "why are we worried about Bill's pockets", do make a valid argument, in my opinion. While fans are not guaranteed to have a winning team every year, I do think Cards fans have more than held up their end of the bargain with attendance, until just recently. That end is no longer being held up on our side, because management has not held up their end now for several years. I won't rehash all the poor trades, signings, etc., we all agree to those issues. But I do know that no one sets thru a 10 episode Netflix series, when the reviews of the first 7 episodes, are garbage! They just don't magically show up for episodes 8-10, based upon promises that they will be better. More people will watch all the episodes, if there was at least some excitement in episodes 1-3. The walk and chew gum argument is what many of us would like to see. No reason we can't keep payroll high while the rebuild takes place. None, except for excuses and the lack of will to do so. The excuses will cause people to tune out long before episode 4. Even with this rant, I think Bloom has done some good things, and he is hopefully on the right path to rebuilding a once proud organization. I just wish Bill would give him the same financial resources that Mo had. Bloom isn't Mo, and he deserves to be judged under the same circumstances of payroll. Uncle Bill will not be in the soup line by giving him that If Bloom was awarded the same dollars, and used those dollars for some decently priced diamonds, then more people will watch and be excited thru the entire 10 show series, and they won't tune out so early. Again, no one watches the first 7 (bleep) episodes, and stays tuned for episode 8, it just doesn't happen! As a business owner, client retention and satisfaction is my number one priority. Once a client is lost, there is no guarantee that I will ever get that client back. We have just witnessed several years of (bleep) baseball, and we are just supposedly to blindly trust the same ownership group that led us to here? We should never prosper to be the Rays, the Brewers, the Marlins, etc.. This is St. Louis and we deserve better than that.

Your Netflix show comparison was genius. I’ve got nothing further to add other than that compliment and agreement.

Thanks BleedingBleu. Glad some of us are on the same page here. Merry Christmas to you!

[Carp4Cy]

I don’t think that’s the case at all. The Cardinals made lots of bad decisions that lead to their current demise. It wasn’t because they were trying to keep up with the Jones, it’s because they were paralyzed to make the right move when they realized how far behind the right-ball their front office had become.

1.) Luhnow humiliated them.
Not only did they get caught “hacking” his database in Houston, but they arrogant outed themselves.

Then, Luhnow started winning and baseball became overly interested in what he had to say, like trimming down the farm. So, the Cardinals, who made their nut as a franchise because they basically invented the farm and at one point had THIRTY-THREE teams under their umbrella, followed that philosophy by cutting an entire level off.

2.) The Cardinals refused to offer mega contracts to the 26 Year Old Star Free Agents, instead choosing to… trade asset for older veterans.

So, rather than sign Bryce Harper at 26 (who eventually agreed to a $330M/13), they traded for 31 year old Paul Goldschmidt for $130M/5. Bryce Harper just now turned 33.

3.) They traded 2 OUTSTANDING COST CONTROLLED PITCHERS for a Left Fielder with a shoulder injury and the mental capacity of an 11 year old. Those two pitchers would be in constant discussion for Cy Young. Their LFer was known for a Strip Club brawl and one of the more hilarious blooper plays of all time.

4.) Rather than invest in star players, they overcompensated by overpaying on complimentary players like Dexter Fowler.

5.) They were so paralyzed by their ineptitude, they kept handing out extensions to their own players like Matt Carpenter, Miles Mikolas, Adam Wainwright, etc.

6.) Everyone was fleecing this Front Office because they were so inadequate that they not only couldn’t properly evaluate their own players in-house, but they couldn’t properly develop the ones they had. It became a running joke when players would go elsewhere and thrive.

7.) Choosing Rookie Managers over proven World Series pedigree

8.) Nerds w/access databases unable to evaluate nor develop their own players ousting proven veteran scouts and coaches in the minors

Being an “mid-market” team isn’t an excuse for having operational malfeasance in your front office.

None of that really has much to do with the point made in the OP.

But, sure, more than one thing can be true. The Cardinals have been, until Bloom, pursuing a poorly constructed philosophy AND doing it badly.

You have to be the most smug poster ever. Your OP is simply a false explanation of what you THINK those who disagree with your tired narrative thinks.

Newsflash…no one on this board knows [shirt] about running an MLB team. If we did, we’d be doing it. We’re are FANS, nothing more nothing less. Some more delusional than others.

Some want to spend on experienced and more talented players. Some desire only precious prospects. And guess what…some want a balanced mix of both. Why does that torment your soul?

It doesn't. At all. Why do you keep insisting that it does?

As I note above, and have noted every time this comes up, the Cardinals WILL NEED TO SPEND on expensive veterans - and spend more than a Milwaukee or Cleveland - to fill gaps on their roster. I keep having to repeat that over and over again, apparently. It is literally right in the OP:

...a foundation of young, cost controlled players and less dependence on expensive veterans, but still able to spend more on such veterans than teams like Milwaukee.

The ONLY thing I reject is the mind-numbing petulance that they MUST SPEND TO THEIR LIMIT RIGHT NOW for 2026. 2026 is a moot point. It's dead, IMO. And that's OK.

The only way they can spend to their $170, $180, etc. million limit RIGHT NOW isn't by sensibly signing Dustin Mays to short 1 or 2 year deals. They can only spend to their $170, $180, etc. million limit RIGHT NOW by going out and chaining themselves to more really expensive veterans on longer term contracts. Right now, those are almost certainly NOT going to be wise investments for a team in no position to be competitive in 2026 (or probably 2027) anyway. There is no reason to take on another "Nolan Arenado" contract right now.

The issue isn't how much they are, or are not, spending in 2026. The issue is WHO they would have to commit themselves to for 3, 4, 5 years down the road in order to spend as much as you demand they spend right now.

That's false. Munetaka Murakami just signed for 2 years $34M. Moderate risk, significant upside, short term. Definately not another Arenado type contract.

If the Cardinals had a strong positive evaluation of Murakami, I wouldn't have been against them signing him to a deal on those terms.

However, given what he did ultimately sign for, it seems like teams across the league had a much more conservative take on how his skill would translate to MLB than expected (estimates had him getting 6-7 yrs. at $22 million a year). So the consensus across MLB seems to be that he is far from a slam dunk to be a difference maker for any team in 2026.

If, our evaluation of him was a poor talent, and he turns out to perform poorly, then yes I’m OK with that. But if we were just being conservative and risk adverse because we don’t know what he can do and he turns out to surprise everybody to the upside, then this is exactly the kind of deal we need to be taking and not miss out on As a mid market team.

[mattmitchl44]

I don’t think that’s the case at all. The Cardinals made lots of bad decisions that lead to their current demise. It wasn’t because they were trying to keep up with the Jones, it’s because they were paralyzed to make the right move when they realized how far behind the right-ball their front office had become.

1.) Luhnow humiliated them.
Not only did they get caught “hacking” his database in Houston, but they arrogant outed themselves.

Then, Luhnow started winning and baseball became overly interested in what he had to say, like trimming down the farm. So, the Cardinals, who made their nut as a franchise because they basically invented the farm and at one point had THIRTY-THREE teams under their umbrella, followed that philosophy by cutting an entire level off.

2.) The Cardinals refused to offer mega contracts to the 26 Year Old Star Free Agents, instead choosing to… trade asset for older veterans.

So, rather than sign Bryce Harper at 26 (who eventually agreed to a $330M/13), they traded for 31 year old Paul Goldschmidt for $130M/5. Bryce Harper just now turned 33.

3.) They traded 2 OUTSTANDING COST CONTROLLED PITCHERS for a Left Fielder with a shoulder injury and the mental capacity of an 11 year old. Those two pitchers would be in constant discussion for Cy Young. Their LFer was known for a Strip Club brawl and one of the more hilarious blooper plays of all time.

4.) Rather than invest in star players, they overcompensated by overpaying on complimentary players like Dexter Fowler.

5.) They were so paralyzed by their ineptitude, they kept handing out extensions to their own players like Matt Carpenter, Miles Mikolas, Adam Wainwright, etc.

6.) Everyone was fleecing this Front Office because they were so inadequate that they not only couldn’t properly evaluate their own players in-house, but they couldn’t properly develop the ones they had. It became a running joke when players would go elsewhere and thrive.

7.) Choosing Rookie Managers over proven World Series pedigree

8.) Nerds w/access databases unable to evaluate nor develop their own players ousting proven veteran scouts and coaches in the minors

Being an “mid-market” team isn’t an excuse for having operational malfeasance in your front office.

None of that really has much to do with the point made in the OP.

But, sure, more than one thing can be true. The Cardinals have been, until Bloom, pursuing a poorly constructed philosophy AND doing it badly.

You have to be the most smug poster ever. Your OP is simply a false explanation of what you THINK those who disagree with your tired narrative thinks.

Newsflash…no one on this board knows [shirt] about running an MLB team. If we did, we’d be doing it. We’re are FANS, nothing more nothing less. Some more delusional than others.

Some want to spend on experienced and more talented players. Some desire only precious prospects. And guess what…some want a balanced mix of both. Why does that torment your soul?

It doesn't. At all. Why do you keep insisting that it does?

As I note above, and have noted every time this comes up, the Cardinals WILL NEED TO SPEND on expensive veterans - and spend more than a Milwaukee or Cleveland - to fill gaps on their roster. I keep having to repeat that over and over again, apparently. It is literally right in the OP:

...a foundation of young, cost controlled players and less dependence on expensive veterans, but still able to spend more on such veterans than teams like Milwaukee.

The ONLY thing I reject is the mind-numbing petulance that they MUST SPEND TO THEIR LIMIT RIGHT NOW for 2026. 2026 is a moot point. It's dead, IMO. And that's OK.

The only way they can spend to their $170, $180, etc. million limit RIGHT NOW isn't by sensibly signing Dustin Mays to short 1 or 2 year deals. They can only spend to their $170, $180, etc. million limit RIGHT NOW by going out and chaining themselves to more really expensive veterans on longer term contracts. Right now, those are almost certainly NOT going to be wise investments for a team in no position to be competitive in 2026 (or probably 2027) anyway. There is no reason to take on another "Nolan Arenado" contract right now.

The issue isn't how much they are, or are not, spending in 2026. The issue is WHO they would have to commit themselves to for 3, 4, 5 years down the road in order to spend as much as you demand they spend right now.

That's false. Munetaka Murakami just signed for 2 years $34M. Moderate risk, significant upside, short term. Definately not another Arenado type contract.

If the Cardinals had a strong positive evaluation of Murakami, I wouldn't have been against them signing him to a deal on those terms.

However, given what he did ultimately sign for, it seems like teams across the league had a much more conservative take on how his skill would translate to MLB than expected (estimates had him getting 6-7 yrs. at $22 million a year). So the consensus across MLB seems to be that he is far from a slam dunk to be a difference maker for any team in 2026.

If, our evaluation of him was a poor talent, and he turns out to perform poorly, then yes I’m OK with that. But if we were just being conservative and risk adverse because we don’t know what he can do and he turns out to surprise everybody to the upside, then this is exactly the kind of deal we need to be taking and not miss out on As a mid market team.

At present, the FG models predict him to hit .231/.333/.458 and be worth ~2 fWAR. That would be an acceptable return for the White Sox's investment.