In my opinion it's defense first

[OldRed]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

[rockondlouie]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

[RunSup]

C keep Pages (C +2), let Herrera DH (C -3)
1B keep Contreras (1B +4), trade Burleson (1B -1)
2B try Wetherholt, trade Gorman (2B -3)
SS keep Winn (SS +22)
3B keep Arenado (3B +15), trade Gorman (3B -6)
OF keep Scott CF (OF +14), Church RF (OF +4), Nootbar (OF -2), trade Walker (OF -22), Burleson (OF -17), Donovan (OF -3)

Projected 2026 defense of departures saves 28.2 runs
-9.3 Burleson
-9.2 Walker
-8.8 Gorman
-0.9 Donovan

How bad will the offense become as a result? Well, maybe not much different!

• We hope Nootbar can hit like Burleson; not a stretch; maybe Noot gets better without heel pain.
• We hope Church can hit like Walker; not a stretch; Walker has been awful
• We hope Arenado can hit like Gorman; not a stretch; Gorman has been awful
• We hope Wetherholt can hit like Donovan; not a stretch; Wetherholt should hit but we shall see.

Hmmm. Maybe we SHOULD play a good defense and hope they can hit.
Seems more likely to succeed than playing an equally poor offense that we know can't field.

BTW: I"m not trading Donovan because of his defense, I'm just assuming he's gone. The other 3 I'm trading due to bad defense as suggested by the OP.

That's an interesting take. Using the W-L Pythagorean calculator, the Cardinals projected to 74 wins with their original 689 runs scored and 754 runs allowed.

Allowing 28.2 less runs gets you 2 more wins. ( I won't show my math. Calculation was by a prompt to the AI in my search engine.)

2 more wins is good. Not enough. So yes need great pitching, good defense and good run-scoring offense (however that gets done).

My only ask to Bloom, DO NOT trad Donovan(and/or WC & Romero) for yet another DH first hitter with questions. Just don't need another one of those clogging up the roster.

At least get a hitter that can field a position respectably. Geez is league average too hard?

[sikeston bulldog2]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

Offense wins games; defense wins championships- old adage.

I believe purely from a consistent standpoint point, that defense wins out. It never slumps. Plus good pitching [censored] down good hitting.

Defense for 1000 please.

[rockondlouie]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

Offense wins games; defense wins championships- old adage.

I believe purely from a consistent standpoint point, that defense wins out. It never slumps. Plus good pitching [censored] down good hitting.

Defense for 1000 please.

Key phrase BDog ----"old adage"

You simply can't win a World Series in this day and age unless you have a powerful offense.

Now if you guys want to amend that to "Great Pitching", then I could see your point but even w/three Hall of Fame starters we saw the Braves win only one World Series.

Great defense, w/o the great hitting (and solid pitching), won't win a WS in today's MLB.

[sikeston bulldog2]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

Offense wins games; defense wins championships- old adage.

I believe purely from a consistent standpoint point, that defense wins out. It never slumps. Plus good pitching [censored] down good hitting.

Defense for 1000 please.

Key phrase BDog ----"old adage"

You simply can't win a World Series in this day and age unless you have a powerful offense.

Now if you guys want to amend that to "Great Pitching", then I could see your point but even w/three Hall of Fame starters we saw the Braves win only one World Series.

Great defense, w/o the great hitting (and solid pitching), won't win a WS in today's MLB.

I figured you’d catch the “old” part. I’m not arguing. I’m saying, game per game my defense will show up. I should be in many close games. Then need breaks. Offense teams take holidays and can be shut down. Defense cant. That’s all.

[rockondlouie]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

Offense wins games; defense wins championships- old adage.

I believe purely from a consistent standpoint point, that defense wins out. It never slumps. Plus good pitching [censored] down good hitting.

Defense for 1000 please.

Key phrase BDog ----"old adage"

You simply can't win a World Series in this day and age unless you have a powerful offense.

Now if you guys want to amend that to "Great Pitching", then I could see your point but even w/three Hall of Fame starters we saw the Braves win only one World Series.

Great defense, w/o the great hitting (and solid pitching), won't win a WS in today's MLB.

I figured you’d catch the “old” part. I’m not arguing. I’m saying, game per game my defense will show up. I should be in many close games. Then need breaks. Offense teams take holidays and can be shut down. Defense cant. That’s all.

But in reality BDog I've always made the point "How many of those great plays actually won a ball game"?

Or did they come in the 2nd inning w/no one on base?

It's why I don't take WAR to seriously on certain players since they value defense (incorrectly) when they don't know if it really played a part and in what games?

I'm not devaluing defense, you have to at least have players who can make the routine plays.

But I'll take a M. Holliday over a VSII any day.

[sikeston bulldog2]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

Offense wins games; defense wins championships- old adage.

I believe purely from a consistent standpoint point, that defense wins out. It never slumps. Plus good pitching [censored] down good hitting.

Defense for 1000 please.

Key phrase BDog ----"old adage"

You simply can't win a World Series in this day and age unless you have a powerful offense.

Now if you guys want to amend that to "Great Pitching", then I could see your point but even w/three Hall of Fame starters we saw the Braves win only one World Series.

Great defense, w/o the great hitting (and solid pitching), won't win a WS in today's MLB.

I figured you’d catch the “old” part. I’m not arguing. I’m saying, game per game my defense will show up. I should be in many close games. Then need breaks. Offense teams take holidays and can be shut down. Defense cant. That’s all.

But in reality BDog I've always made the point "How many of those great plays actually won a ball game"?

Or did they come in the 2nd inning w/no one on base?

It's why I don't take WAR to seriously on certain players since they value defense (incorrectly) when they don't know if it really played a part and in what games?

I'm not devaluing defense, you have to at least have players who can make the routine plays.

But I'll take a M. Holliday over a VSII any day.

Not in center field I wouldn’t. You still need your Scott’s and Winns. Floods and Maxvills.

[OldRed]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

Offense wins games; defense wins championships- old adage.

I believe purely from a consistent standpoint point, that defense wins out. It never slumps. Plus good pitching [censored] down good hitting.

Defense for 1000 please.

Key phrase BDog ----"old adage"

You simply can't win a World Series in this day and age unless you have a powerful offense.

Now if you guys want to amend that to "Great Pitching", then I could see your point but even w/three Hall of Fame starters we saw the Braves win only one World Series.

Great defense, w/o the great hitting (and solid pitching), won't win a WS in today's MLB.

I figured you’d catch the “old” part. I’m not arguing. I’m saying, game per game my defense will show up. I should be in many close games. Then need breaks. Offense teams take holidays and can be shut down. Defense cant. That’s all.

But in reality BDog I've always made the point "How many of those great plays actually won a ball game"?

Or did they come in the 2nd inning w/no one on base?

It's why I don't take WAR to seriously on certain players since they value defense (incorrectly) when they don't know if it really played a part and in what games?

I'm not devaluing defense, you have to at least have players who can make the routine plays.

But I'll take a M. Holliday over a VSII any day.

In Center Field? I guess you don't remember the play Holliday screwed up in LF a playoff series.

[ecleme22]

Defense is huge.

[rockondlouie]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

Offense wins games; defense wins championships- old adage.

I believe purely from a consistent standpoint point, that defense wins out. It never slumps. Plus good pitching [censored] down good hitting.

Defense for 1000 please.

Key phrase BDog ----"old adage"

You simply can't win a World Series in this day and age unless you have a powerful offense.

Now if you guys want to amend that to "Great Pitching", then I could see your point but even w/three Hall of Fame starters we saw the Braves win only one World Series.

Great defense, w/o the great hitting (and solid pitching), won't win a WS in today's MLB.

I figured you’d catch the “old” part. I’m not arguing. I’m saying, game per game my defense will show up. I should be in many close games. Then need breaks. Offense teams take holidays and can be shut down. Defense cant. That’s all.

But in reality BDog I've always made the point "How many of those great plays actually won a ball game"?

Or did they come in the 2nd inning w/no one on base?

It's why I don't take WAR to seriously on certain players since they value defense (incorrectly) when they don't know if it really played a part and in what games?

I'm not devaluing defense, you have to at least have players who can make the routine plays.

But I'll take a M. Holliday over a VSII any day.

Not in center field I wouldn’t. You still need your Scott’s and Winns. Floods and Maxvills.

Yes

On team that have offense!

On this Cardinals team, not so much.

I'd trade either one of them in the right deal.

[rockondlouie]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

Offense wins games; defense wins championships- old adage.

I believe purely from a consistent standpoint point, that defense wins out. It never slumps. Plus good pitching [censored] down good hitting.

Defense for 1000 please.

Key phrase BDog ----"old adage"

You simply can't win a World Series in this day and age unless you have a powerful offense.

Now if you guys want to amend that to "Great Pitching", then I could see your point but even w/three Hall of Fame starters we saw the Braves win only one World Series.

Great defense, w/o the great hitting (and solid pitching), won't win a WS in today's MLB.

I figured you’d catch the “old” part. I’m not arguing. I’m saying, game per game my defense will show up. I should be in many close games. Then need breaks. Offense teams take holidays and can be shut down. Defense cant. That’s all.

But in reality BDog I've always made the point "How many of those great plays actually won a ball game"?

Or did they come in the 2nd inning w/no one on base?

It's why I don't take WAR to seriously on certain players since they value defense (incorrectly) when they don't know if it really played a part and in what games?

I'm not devaluing defense, you have to at least have players who can make the routine plays.

But I'll take a M. Holliday over a VSII any day.

In Center Field? I guess you don't remember the play Holliday screwed up in LF a playoff series.

No, just using an OF comparison.

And I knew you'd bring that play up to support your position.

So you're going to point to ONE PLAY where Matt messed up and IGNORE the DOZENS upon DOZENS of games his bat won with his eight year Cardinals slash of .293 .380 .494 .874?

I guess you don't remember C. Flood, great defensive CF'er, turning the wrong way on a fly ball that cost the Cardinals the 1968 WS?

[sikeston bulldog2]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

Offense wins games; defense wins championships- old adage.

I believe purely from a consistent standpoint point, that defense wins out. It never slumps. Plus good pitching [censored] down good hitting.

Defense for 1000 please.

Key phrase BDog ----"old adage"

You simply can't win a World Series in this day and age unless you have a powerful offense.

Now if you guys want to amend that to "Great Pitching", then I could see your point but even w/three Hall of Fame starters we saw the Braves win only one World Series.

Great defense, w/o the great hitting (and solid pitching), won't win a WS in today's MLB.

I figured you’d catch the “old” part. I’m not arguing. I’m saying, game per game my defense will show up. I should be in many close games. Then need breaks. Offense teams take holidays and can be shut down. Defense cant. That’s all.

But in reality BDog I've always made the point "How many of those great plays actually won a ball game"?

Or did they come in the 2nd inning w/no one on base?

It's why I don't take WAR to seriously on certain players since they value defense (incorrectly) when they don't know if it really played a part and in what games?

I'm not devaluing defense, you have to at least have players who can make the routine plays.

But I'll take a M. Holliday over a VSII any day.

In Center Field? I guess you don't remember the play Holliday screwed up in LF a playoff series.

No, just using an OF comparison.

And I knew you'd bring that play up to support your position.

So you're going to point to ONE PLAY where Matt messed up and IGNORE the DOZENS upon DOZENS of games his bat won with his eight year Cardinals slash of .293 .380 .494 .874?

I guess you don't remember C. Flood, great defensive CF'er, turning the wrong way on a fly ball that cost the Cardinals the 1968 WS?

You hung your self. You make my point. Had Flooded not turned wrong way, or slipped, we win that game on great defense. Defense wins championships.

[OldRed]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

Offense wins games; defense wins championships- old adage.

I believe purely from a consistent standpoint point, that defense wins out. It never slumps. Plus good pitching [censored] down good hitting.

Defense for 1000 please.

Key phrase BDog ----"old adage"

You simply can't win a World Series in this day and age unless you have a powerful offense.

Now if you guys want to amend that to "Great Pitching", then I could see your point but even w/three Hall of Fame starters we saw the Braves win only one World Series.

Great defense, w/o the great hitting (and solid pitching), won't win a WS in today's MLB.

I figured you’d catch the “old” part. I’m not arguing. I’m saying, game per game my defense will show up. I should be in many close games. Then need breaks. Offense teams take holidays and can be shut down. Defense cant. That’s all.

But in reality BDog I've always made the point "How many of those great plays actually won a ball game"?

Or did they come in the 2nd inning w/no one on base?

It's why I don't take WAR to seriously on certain players since they value defense (incorrectly) when they don't know if it really played a part and in what games?

I'm not devaluing defense, you have to at least have players who can make the routine plays.

But I'll take a M. Holliday over a VSII any day.

In Center Field? I guess you don't remember the play Holliday screwed up in LF a playoff series.

No, just using an OF comparison.

And I knew you'd bring that play up to support your position.

So you're going to point to ONE PLAY where Matt messed up and IGNORE the DOZENS upon DOZENS of games his bat won with his eight year Cardinals slash of .293 .380 .494 .874?

I guess you don't remember C. Flood, great defensive CF'er, turning the wrong way on a fly ball that cost the Cardinals the 1968 WS?

I wasn't knocking Holliday who was playing a position not known for defense. But up the middle you need defense.

Sure, I remember 7 time GG winner taking a step in on a line drive that went over his head. That wasn't the only play that cost the 1968 WS.

I guess you have forgotten the great defensive plays Jim Edmonds made to win baseball games

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r ... ORM=VAMGZC

[rockondlouie]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

Offense wins games; defense wins championships- old adage.

I believe purely from a consistent standpoint point, that defense wins out. It never slumps. Plus good pitching [censored] down good hitting.

Defense for 1000 please.

Key phrase BDog ----"old adage"

You simply can't win a World Series in this day and age unless you have a powerful offense.

Now if you guys want to amend that to "Great Pitching", then I could see your point but even w/three Hall of Fame starters we saw the Braves win only one World Series.

Great defense, w/o the great hitting (and solid pitching), won't win a WS in today's MLB.

I figured you’d catch the “old” part. I’m not arguing. I’m saying, game per game my defense will show up. I should be in many close games. Then need breaks. Offense teams take holidays and can be shut down. Defense cant. That’s all.

But in reality BDog I've always made the point "How many of those great plays actually won a ball game"?

Or did they come in the 2nd inning w/no one on base?

It's why I don't take WAR to seriously on certain players since they value defense (incorrectly) when they don't know if it really played a part and in what games?

I'm not devaluing defense, you have to at least have players who can make the routine plays.

But I'll take a M. Holliday over a VSII any day.

In Center Field? I guess you don't remember the play Holliday screwed up in LF a playoff series.

No, just using an OF comparison.

And I knew you'd bring that play up to support your position.

So you're going to point to ONE PLAY where Matt messed up and IGNORE the DOZENS upon DOZENS of games his bat won with his eight year Cardinals slash of .293 .380 .494 .874?

I guess you don't remember C. Flood, great defensive CF'er, turning the wrong way on a fly ball that cost the Cardinals the 1968 WS?

I wasn't knocking Holliday who was playing a position not known for defense. But up the middle you need defense.

Sure, I remember 7 time GG winner taking a step in on a line drive that went over his head. That wasn't the only play that cost the 1968 WS.

I guess you have forgotten the great defensive plays Jim Edmonds made to win baseball games

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r ... ORM=VAMGZC

I haven't forgotten any plays OR.

Guess you forgot J. Edmonds clutch Game 6 2004 playoff HR:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DBXSMFJS_dg/

[rockondlouie]

This team is sorely lacking in power, they have two Gold Glove caliber fielders who aren't good offensive players already in M. Winn & VSII.

What they need is a powerhitter or two (good luck finding one when BDWJr isn't spending any real money for a few years), not more glove only players.

+1.
This team needs offense! As I've posted a number of times - the top offenses, not the top pitching staffs or defense, have won the World Series the past 10+ years. The average winner the last 3 years has been #3 in offense. The Cards were #1 in the NL in 2011 (pre-DH in NL) and #5 in MLB.

10-years - WS winner rank on offense (runs scored):
2025 - #2 LA
2024 - #2 LA
2023 - #3 Rangers
2022 - #6 Astros
2021- #7 Braves
2020- #1 LA
2019 - #6 Nats
2018 - #1 Red Sox
2017 - #1 Astros
2016 - #3 Cubs

Pitching
2025 - #14 -Dodgers
2024 - #13 -Dodgers
2023 -#13 Rangers
2022- #2 Astros
2021- #7 - Braves
2020- #1 Dodgers
2019 - #9 Nats
2018 -#6 Red Sox
2017 -#9 Astros
2016 -#1 Cubs
2015 - #10 KC

Amen

I don't get this obsession w/defense over offense.

Sure you don't want a team of iron gloves but you also don't want a team of all glove/very little offensive players like Winn & VSII either!

Give me the powerhitters and good hitters over defense any day.

JMO

In all sports, basketball, football, hockey and yes baseball it is defense first, which makes the pitching better followed by offense. Sure, we all like offense, but think of the great teams Herzog put together, it started with defense. In hockey you don't win a Stanley Cup without great defense. Same holds true in the NFL, it starts with the defense followed by a good offense. How did the Celtics win all their championships, it was defense with Bill Russell.

Nope, not any more OR.

Not in baseball (or even hockey RE: Oilers w/Gretz), great offenses can win championships w/even league average defense.

The 2025 Dodgers didn't have a great defensive team, but they sure were loaded w/power hitters!

The game has changed dramatically over the past decade or so and now favors power hitting over defense.

Give me a team loaded w/power hitters and good hitters and average defense over one w/too many M. Winn, 2025 NADO & VSII types any day.

JMO

Offense wins games; defense wins championships- old adage.

I believe purely from a consistent standpoint point, that defense wins out. It never slumps. Plus good pitching [censored] down good hitting.

Defense for 1000 please.

Key phrase BDog ----"old adage"

You simply can't win a World Series in this day and age unless you have a powerful offense.

Now if you guys want to amend that to "Great Pitching", then I could see your point but even w/three Hall of Fame starters we saw the Braves win only one World Series.

Great defense, w/o the great hitting (and solid pitching), won't win a WS in today's MLB.

I figured you’d catch the “old” part. I’m not arguing. I’m saying, game per game my defense will show up. I should be in many close games. Then need breaks. Offense teams take holidays and can be shut down. Defense cant. That’s all.

But in reality BDog I've always made the point "How many of those great plays actually won a ball game"?

Or did they come in the 2nd inning w/no one on base?

It's why I don't take WAR to seriously on certain players since they value defense (incorrectly) when they don't know if it really played a part and in what games?

I'm not devaluing defense, you have to at least have players who can make the routine plays.

But I'll take a M. Holliday over a VSII any day.

In Center Field? I guess you don't remember the play Holliday screwed up in LF a playoff series.

No, just using an OF comparison.

And I knew you'd bring that play up to support your position.

So you're going to point to ONE PLAY where Matt messed up and IGNORE the DOZENS upon DOZENS of games his bat won with his eight year Cardinals slash of .293 .380 .494 .874?

I guess you don't remember C. Flood, great defensive CF'er, turning the wrong way on a fly ball that cost the Cardinals the 1968 WS?

You hung your self. You make my point. Had Flooded not turned wrong way, or slipped, we win that game on great defense. Defense wins championships.

Nope, not hung BDog

Even w/a GREAT defensive player in CF the Cardinals lost that WS showing his great glove didn't win the WS for the Cardinals.