Question for those not wanting to Rebuild

[CCard]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

We just disagree. Getting to the playoffs is priority number one. If you clinch the playoffs then you try to win the division. Playoffs every year. That's the goal. Making some pie in the sky juggernaut is only optional for the biggest spenders who can buy premium talent and plug in more premium talent.

Completely disagree. Your approach was tried by them and led to mediocrity. Build it correctly now. Had they done it three years ago they could have been contenders now.

LOL...They won multiple championships and were a perennial contender for nearly two decades under "My approach".

The structure of baseball was different 15 years ago to 20 years ago. The game evolves. The 2006 team didn’t try your approach. That team was loaded. It just was injured and got healthy outside of Rolen at playoff time. Who was on the level of Carpenter, Rolen, Pujols or Edmonds on the 25 Cardinals that you feel it was similar?

Teams didn’t build teams in 2006 like they do now. There were

Carpenter was signed while being injured. They took a chance that he would come back from it. Rolen...from a trade. Edmonds...from a trade. Wainwright...from a trade. Eckstein...I believe it was a trade, but not sure. Walker...from a trade. Jeff Suppan...Trade I believe.

[CCard]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans".

This is the fundamental disagreement.

We know we are living in an age in baseball where the rich are richer than ever before and there are more teams that fall into the category of "the poor" than ever before.

With that polarization across baseball, you are going to have more rich teams - the Dodgers, Yankees, Blue Jays, Phillies, Mets, etc. - who are going to have 100-win talent on their rosters, even if they don't happen to win 100 games.

When you have 5, 6, etc. 100-win talent teams making the playoffs every year, the chances of a team with 87-win or 88-win talent being able to run the table through multiple 100-win talent teams to a WS title diminish significantly. If the playoffs are a crapshoot, it is now a crapshoot with loaded dice that are significantly against the "just make the playoffs and hope for the best" philosophy. This is why what it takes to be a serious contender is different in 2025 that it has been before.

This is why some of us preach that the Cardinals need to find an organizational approach that gives them a better chance of at least building rosters with 92-win or 95-win talent, bringing them much closer to an even playing field with the multiple 100-win talent teams that they will have to get through if they want to win another WS in the near future.

What people need to think about is - just because there was some Cardinals-specific philosophical approach in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s that you look back on fondly as being how they were successful then, that does not mean that that same philosophical approach can be successful for the Cardinals in the 2020s, 2030s, etc.

Your proposal to tank for years only guarantees losses, abundant losses. You have no guarantee that cheap talent will live up to it's promise. Even if some do, you know they all won't. Add to that your method is cyclical. After a few years players start getting arbitration and then comes free agency, then the teams like the Dodgers reap the rewards of all your training and drafting.

There is no strategy for the Cardinals that will guarantee success. What I want to see is a strategy that can give them the best chance for success, even if that is on 3 years out of every 5 periodicity.

They went almost two decades as a perennial contender and won two championships while making the world series 4 times and the NLCS also. I'll take that approach over a chance to "be good" every 3 or 4 years sandwiched by that "mediocrity" you speak of. LOL

See above:

What people need to think about is - just because there was some Cardinals-specific philosophical approach in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s that you look back on fondly as being how they were successful then, that does not mean that that same philosophical approach can be successful for the Cardinals in the 2020s, 2030s, etc.

MLB 2025 is very different, in many ways, than MLB in the 1960s, 1980s, or 2000s.

That's just a catch all excuse. Baseball has changed, but not to that extent. Pitchers still pitch from 60' 6". Batters still get 3 strikes. Good fielders still field good. Ozzie Smith would be just as successful today as he was in the 80's. So would Coleman, Hernandez, Clark, etc etc. Some owners still cheap out when it comes to getting premium talent. Funny how they dominated for so long but now according to you "the game has changed." LOL

[Ronnie Dobbs]

They got extremely lucky with signing a hurt Chris Carpenter and trading for a young minor league pitcher from Atlanta, Adam Wainwright. Without those two there are no championships. But they got Edmonds from the Angels and he starred for them. They have always had pretty good catchers, but getting Molina really made them strong up the middle with Edmonds in Center. A Molina doesn't come around often. Then of course they brought up Albert because of an injury to Bonilla and he stayed. They signed a little shortstop by the name of David Eckstein that played bigger than he should have. And Larry Walker. So it takes a lot more than drafting and developing. It takes acquiring talent at the major league level also.

No one ever claimed that you only draft and develop home grown players and don't acquire major league talent. My entire point is that you get really good at drafting and developing so that you have a good enough base, and maybe some homegrown stars, so that you can succeed by bringing in outside talent to take you to the next level. And that's exactly how the Cardinals had success for years.

You say the only way they win any championships is because of Adam Wainwright and Chris Carpenter. Maybe that's true, but I think you're excluding two HUGE homegrown players in Yadi and Albert. Also, they got Adam Wainwright because they traded a homegrown stud player in JD Drew for him. And they got Jim Edmonds because they traded a very good young homegrown player in Adam Kennedy for him.

So, you got Wainwright, Pujols, Molina, and Edmonds, two definite HOFers, one probably should be, and another pretty close. All either drafted and developed or traded for because of a player you drafted and developed. That allows you to go out and sign an Eckstein (a pretty low level signing that a lot of people panned at the time because they said they were being cheap for not re-signing Renteria) and a Larry Walker (salary dump) to put you over the top.

[ecleme22]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

We just disagree. Getting to the playoffs is priority number one. If you clinch the playoffs then you try to win the division. Playoffs every year. That's the goal. Making some pie in the sky juggernaut is only optional for the biggest spenders who can buy premium talent and plug in more premium talent.

Completely disagree. Your approach was tried by them and led to mediocrity. Build it correctly now. Had they done it three years ago they could have been contenders now.

LOL...They won multiple championships and were a perennial contender for nearly two decades under "My approach".

The structure of baseball was different 15 years ago to 20 years ago. The game evolves. The 2006 team didn’t try your approach. That team was loaded. It just was injured and got healthy outside of Rolen at playoff time. Who was on the level of Carpenter, Rolen, Pujols or Edmonds on the 25 Cardinals that you feel it was similar?

Teams didn’t build teams in 2006 like they do now. There were

Carpenter was signed while being injured. They took a chance that he would come back from it. Rolen...from a trade. Edmonds...from a trade. Wainwright...from a trade. Eckstein...I believe it was a trade, but not sure. Walker...from a trade. Jeff Suppan...Trade I believe.

Chris Carpenter: An under-the-radar signing helped by good scouting.
Eckstein: A modest signing where he replaced the more-talented Renteria
Waino: Once again, the benefit of good scouting. Waino was also a player who didn't really pitch for the mlb team for 2+ years after the trade.
Suppan: He was signed.

[CCard]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

We just disagree. Getting to the playoffs is priority number one. If you clinch the playoffs then you try to win the division. Playoffs every year. That's the goal. Making some pie in the sky juggernaut is only optional for the biggest spenders who can buy premium talent and plug in more premium talent.

Completely disagree. Your approach was tried by them and led to mediocrity. Build it correctly now. Had they done it three years ago they could have been contenders now.

LOL...They won multiple championships and were a perennial contender for nearly two decades under "My approach".

The structure of baseball was different 15 years ago to 20 years ago. The game evolves. The 2006 team didn’t try your approach. That team was loaded. It just was injured and got healthy outside of Rolen at playoff time. Who was on the level of Carpenter, Rolen, Pujols or Edmonds on the 25 Cardinals that you feel it was similar?

Teams didn’t build teams in 2006 like they do now. There were

Carpenter was signed while being injured. They took a chance that he would come back from it. Rolen...from a trade. Edmonds...from a trade. Wainwright...from a trade. Eckstein...I believe it was a trade, but not sure. Walker...from a trade. Jeff Suppan...Trade I believe.

Chris Carpenter: An under-the-radar signing helped by good scouting.
Eckstein: A modest signing where he replaced the more-talented Renteria
Waino: Once again, the benefit of good scouting. Waino was also a player who didn't really pitch for the mlb team for 2+ years after the trade.
Suppan: He was signed.

So how many of those were drafted by the Cardinals and coached up in the minors? Maybe Wainwright was coached some.

[CCard]

They got extremely lucky with signing a hurt Chris Carpenter and trading for a young minor league pitcher from Atlanta, Adam Wainwright. Without those two there are no championships. But they got Edmonds from the Angels and he starred for them. They have always had pretty good catchers, but getting Molina really made them strong up the middle with Edmonds in Center. A Molina doesn't come around often. Then of course they brought up Albert because of an injury to Bonilla and he stayed. They signed a little shortstop by the name of David Eckstein that played bigger than he should have. And Larry Walker. So it takes a lot more than drafting and developing. It takes acquiring talent at the major league level also.

No one ever claimed that you only draft and develop home grown players and don't acquire major league talent. My entire point is that you get really good at drafting and developing so that you have a good enough base, and maybe some homegrown stars, so that you can succeed by bringing in outside talent to take you to the next level. And that's exactly how the Cardinals had success for years.

You say the only way they win any championships is because of Adam Wainwright and Chris Carpenter. Maybe that's true, but I think you're excluding two HUGE homegrown players in Yadi and Albert. Also, they got Adam Wainwright because they traded a homegrown stud player in JD Drew for him. And they got Jim Edmonds because they traded a very good young homegrown player in Adam Kennedy for him.

So, you got Wainwright, Pujols, Molina, and Edmonds, two definite HOFers, one probably should be, and another pretty close. All either drafted and developed or traded for because of a player you drafted and developed. That allows you to go out and sign an Eckstein (a pretty low level signing that a lot of people panned at the time because they said they were being cheap for not re-signing Renteria) and a Larry Walker (salary dump) to put you over the top.

Yeah, we could do this all day long and get no where. I again state that drafting and developing is important and should be amongst one of the things that winning organizations do constantly and not on a whim. Nobody, and I mean nobody knew that Pujols would be that good. They knew Molina would be good defensively but nobody knew he would develop with the bat like he did. But he did that at the major league level.They got a great deal on Edmonds. They got a great deal on Wainwright, but again, he was a minor leaguer and could have turned into a bust. If they knew he would be that good, Atlanta would never have traded him for Drew. Not even straight up. Wainwright probably became the pitcher he was because of Dave Duncan. Eckstein was a lucky signing. The thing I'm stating is that you don't just depend on drafting and developing which takes years to produce. Winning is about winning now. You give yourself a chance to win every season, if not then why even field a team? Just let them play in the minors and field a team every 3 or 4 years. Stupid isn't it?

[ecleme22]

They got extremely lucky with signing a hurt Chris Carpenter and trading for a young minor league pitcher from Atlanta, Adam Wainwright. Without those two there are no championships. But they got Edmonds from the Angels and he starred for them. They have always had pretty good catchers, but getting Molina really made them strong up the middle with Edmonds in Center. A Molina doesn't come around often. Then of course they brought up Albert because of an injury to Bonilla and he stayed. They signed a little shortstop by the name of David Eckstein that played bigger than he should have. And Larry Walker. So it takes a lot more than drafting and developing. It takes acquiring talent at the major league level also.

No one ever claimed that you only draft and develop home grown players and don't acquire major league talent. My entire point is that you get really good at drafting and developing so that you have a good enough base, and maybe some homegrown stars, so that you can succeed by bringing in outside talent to take you to the next level. And that's exactly how the Cardinals had success for years.

You say the only way they win any championships is because of Adam Wainwright and Chris Carpenter. Maybe that's true, but I think you're excluding two HUGE homegrown players in Yadi and Albert. Also, they got Adam Wainwright because they traded a homegrown stud player in JD Drew for him. And they got Jim Edmonds because they traded a very good young homegrown player in Adam Kennedy for him.

So, you got Wainwright, Pujols, Molina, and Edmonds, two definite HOFers, one probably should be, and another pretty close. All either drafted and developed or traded for because of a player you drafted and developed. That allows you to go out and sign an Eckstein (a pretty low level signing that a lot of people panned at the time because they said they were being cheap for not re-signing Renteria) and a Larry Walker (salary dump) to put you over the top.

Yeah, we could do this all day long and get no where. I again state that drafting and developing is important and should be amongst one of the things that winning organizations do constantly and not on a whim. Nobody, and I mean nobody knew that Pujols would be that good. They knew Molina would be good defensively but nobody knew he would develop with the bat like he did. But he did that at the major league level.They got a great deal on Edmonds. They got a great deal on Wainwright, but again, he was a minor leaguer and could have turned into a bust. If they knew he would be that good, Atlanta would never have traded him for Drew. Not even straight up. Wainwright probably became the pitcher he was because of Dave Duncan. Eckstein was a lucky signing. The thing I'm stating is that you don't just depend on drafting and developing which takes years to produce. Winning is about winning now. You give yourself a chance to win every season, if not then why even field a team? Just let them play in the minors and field a team every 3 or 4 years. Stupid isn't it?

Smoltz was reportedly very upset the Braves traded Waino. The org new he was good, but JD Drew was a stud too.
Eckstein was not a lucky signing. He was decent for ANA too.

Most CTers aren't against trades and signings.

But if you don't have a pipeline of young, MLB talent, then when you're able to obtain a Goldy or Arenado, the talent is wasted because the rest of the roster is suspect, like in 2022.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Smoltz was reportedly very upset the Braves traded Waino. The org new he was good, but JD Drew was a stud too.
Eckstein was not a lucky signing. He was decent for ANA too.

Most CTers aren't against trades and signings.

But if you don't have a pipeline of young, MLB talent, then when you're able to obtain a Goldy or Arenado, the talent is wasted because the rest of the roster is suspect, like in 2022.

Exactly. Goldschmidt and Arenado are perfect examples. You go get guys like that, you expect to compete for a World Series, but the team was never able to put a good supporting cast together in order to make that possible.

People don't have to like it, but this team is never going to spend like a big market team. It's not going to happen. And they jammed themselves because they made some bad signings and extensions because of their budget. If they they had cheap, homegrown talent to rely on, instead of having to extend Mikolas or Carpenter or whoever when they were clearly past their prime, they can afford to spend their money more wisely.

[mattmitchl44]

They got extremely lucky with signing a hurt Chris Carpenter and trading for a young minor league pitcher from Atlanta, Adam Wainwright. Without those two there are no championships. But they got Edmonds from the Angels and he starred for them. They have always had pretty good catchers, but getting Molina really made them strong up the middle with Edmonds in Center. A Molina doesn't come around often. Then of course they brought up Albert because of an injury to Bonilla and he stayed. They signed a little shortstop by the name of David Eckstein that played bigger than he should have. And Larry Walker. So it takes a lot more than drafting and developing. It takes acquiring talent at the major league level also.

No one ever claimed that you only draft and develop home grown players and don't acquire major league talent. My entire point is that you get really good at drafting and developing so that you have a good enough base, and maybe some homegrown stars, so that you can succeed by bringing in outside talent to take you to the next level. And that's exactly how the Cardinals had success for years.

You say the only way they win any championships is because of Adam Wainwright and Chris Carpenter. Maybe that's true, but I think you're excluding two HUGE homegrown players in Yadi and Albert. Also, they got Adam Wainwright because they traded a homegrown stud player in JD Drew for him. And they got Jim Edmonds because they traded a very good young homegrown player in Adam Kennedy for him.

So, you got Wainwright, Pujols, Molina, and Edmonds, two definite HOFers, one probably should be, and another pretty close. All either drafted and developed or traded for because of a player you drafted and developed. That allows you to go out and sign an Eckstein (a pretty low level signing that a lot of people panned at the time because they said they were being cheap for not re-signing Renteria) and a Larry Walker (salary dump) to put you over the top.

Yeah, we could do this all day long and get no where. I again state that drafting and developing is important and should be amongst one of the things that winning organizations do constantly and not on a whim. Nobody, and I mean nobody knew that Pujols would be that good. They knew Molina would be good defensively but nobody knew he would develop with the bat like he did. But he did that at the major league level.They got a great deal on Edmonds. They got a great deal on Wainwright, but again, he was a minor leaguer and could have turned into a bust. If they knew he would be that good, Atlanta would never have traded him for Drew. Not even straight up. Wainwright probably became the pitcher he was because of Dave Duncan. Eckstein was a lucky signing. The thing I'm stating is that you don't just depend on drafting and developing which takes years to produce. Winning is about winning now. You give yourself a chance to win every season, if not then why even field a team? Just let them play in the minors and field a team every 3 or 4 years. Stupid isn't it?

You never come to grips with the fact that you don't offer an implementable alternative.

The Cardinals are NEVER going to be able to pay five full market value stars/superstars on their roster at the same time, let alone another few above average players, and then a bunch of solid regulars/role players.

No matter how you want to define "competing", the Cardinals have to get (1) half of their talent and (2) over half of their 26 players from pre-ARB and ARB players. And most of those are going to have to be guys they developed themselves.

You don't want them to actually "compete", because we know they are in no position to do so right now. You just want them to "try" so that it makes you feel better. You want to be pacified by the "appearance of competing" not actually "competing."

[JDW]

Smoltz was reportedly very upset the Braves traded Waino. The org new he was good, but JD Drew was a stud too.
Eckstein was not a lucky signing. He was decent for ANA too.

Most CTers aren't against trades and signings.

But if you don't have a pipeline of young, MLB talent, then when you're able to obtain a Goldy or Arenado, the talent is wasted because the rest of the roster is suspect, like in 2022.

Exactly. Goldschmidt and Arenado are perfect examples. You go get guys like that, you expect to compete for a World Series, but the team was never able to put a good supporting cast together in order to make that possible.

People don't have to like it, but this team is never going to spend like a big market team. It's not going to happen. And they jammed themselves because they made some bad signings and extensions because of their budget. If they they had cheap, homegrown talent to rely on, instead of having to extend Mikolas or Carpenter or whoever when they were clearly past their prime, they can afford to spend their money more wisely.

Good points, the Cards need the pipeline of young, cost controlled MLB talent to compete with any consistency year to year, but possibly the Cards could have competed in the playoffs in some of the Goldy/Arenado years if both of them had led the team in the playoffs with good production instead of wilting away under the brighter lights.

[juan good eye]

They got extremely lucky with signing a hurt Chris Carpenter and trading for a young minor league pitcher from Atlanta, Adam Wainwright. Without those two there are no championships. But they got Edmonds from the Angels and he starred for them. They have always had pretty good catchers, but getting Molina really made them strong up the middle with Edmonds in Center. A Molina doesn't come around often. Then of course they brought up Albert because of an injury to Bonilla and he stayed. They signed a little shortstop by the name of David Eckstein that played bigger than he should have. And Larry Walker. So it takes a lot more than drafting and developing. It takes acquiring talent at the major league level also.

No one ever claimed that you only draft and develop home grown players and don't acquire major league talent. My entire point is that you get really good at drafting and developing so that you have a good enough base, and maybe some homegrown stars, so that you can succeed by bringing in outside talent to take you to the next level. And that's exactly how the Cardinals had success for years.

You say the only way they win any championships is because of Adam Wainwright and Chris Carpenter. Maybe that's true, but I think you're excluding two HUGE homegrown players in Yadi and Albert. Also, they got Adam Wainwright because they traded a homegrown stud player in JD Drew for him. And they got Jim Edmonds because they traded a very good young homegrown player in Adam Kennedy for him.

So, you got Wainwright, Pujols, Molina, and Edmonds, two definite HOFers, one probably should be, and another pretty close. All either drafted and developed or traded for because of a player you drafted and developed. That allows you to go out and sign an Eckstein (a pretty low level signing that a lot of people panned at the time because they said they were being cheap for not re-signing Renteria) and a Larry Walker (salary dump) to put you over the top.

Yeah, we could do this all day long and get no where. I again state that drafting and developing is important and should be amongst one of the things that winning organizations do constantly and not on a whim. Nobody, and I mean nobody knew that Pujols would be that good. They knew Molina would be good defensively but nobody knew he would develop with the bat like he did. But he did that at the major league level.They got a great deal on Edmonds. They got a great deal on Wainwright, but again, he was a minor leaguer and could have turned into a bust. If they knew he would be that good, Atlanta would never have traded him for Drew. Not even straight up. Wainwright probably became the pitcher he was because of Dave Duncan. Eckstein was a lucky signing. The thing I'm stating is that you don't just depend on drafting and developing which takes years to produce. Winning is about winning now. You give yourself a chance to win every season, if not then why even field a team? Just let them play in the minors and field a team every 3 or 4 years. Stupid isn't it?

You never come to grips with the fact that you don't offer an implementable alternative.

The Cardinals are NEVER going to be able to pay five full market value stars/superstars on their roster at the same time, let alone another few above average players, and then a bunch of solid regulars/role players.

No matter how you want to define "competing", the Cardinals have to get (1) half of their talent and (2) over half of their 26 players from pre-ARB and ARB players. And most of those are going to have to be guys they developed themselves.

You don't want them to actually "compete", because we know they are in no position to do so right now. You just want them to "try" so that it makes you feel better. You want to be pacified by the "appearance of competing" not actually "competing."

Case closed.

[renostl]

Smoltz was reportedly very upset the Braves traded Waino. The org new he was good, but JD Drew was a stud too.
Eckstein was not a lucky signing. He was decent for ANA too.

Most CTers aren't against trades and signings.

But if you don't have a pipeline of young, MLB talent, then when you're able to obtain a Goldy or Arenado, the talent is wasted because the rest of the roster is suspect, like in 2022.

Exactly. Goldschmidt and Arenado are perfect examples. You go get guys like that, you expect to compete for a World Series, but the team was never able to put a good supporting cast together in order to make that possible.

People don't have to like it, but this team is never going to spend like a big market team. It's not going to happen. And they jammed themselves because they made some bad signings and extensions because of their budget. If they they had cheap, homegrown talent to rely on, instead of having to extend Mikolas or Carpenter or whoever when they were clearly past their prime, they can afford to spend their money more wisely.

Ronnie this is toward the topic not against your post.

The Cards have been around for about 150 years. They've won 11 times, 23 pennants, with about
a 1 in 5 playoff appearance and are considered very successful.
Which means other teams are less successful. I will assume that with the Cardinals
and all those other teams that every recipe has been tried with very limited success stories.
Everyone that thinks they have the magical road to success is correct, but they are more often wrong.

It's baseball with a very long season to navigate.

2022 was what some here are prescribing. They went out and got players when young players showed
promise. Should they wait until those young players have multiple seasons of success. Perhaps but we
know that criticism too. Payroll was upped to $160M +/-.

Miles gets a lot of heat but was pitching well back then. I hated the signing of a 40 y/o AW at the time
much more. Both did ok. MM 200 IP. 3.29, with a 1.033 WHIP, AW 191 IP, 3.71 and a 1.283 WHIP They added
at the TD Montgomery and Quintana.

That young core was there coming off 2021. For shorthand purposes I'll use WAR.
LF 6.4 WAR, CF 4.1, RF 3.2, 2B 3.8, A SS who last full season hit 30 HRs a young up and coming Flaherty.
Adding borderline HOF at 1B and 3B seems pretty grand, IMO

Now it didn't work. A lot of should of's, could of's can be brought up BUT would we have been happy
waiting and not trying? It didn't work is all.

Yet IF they had that same core right now coming off 2025 like was here in 2021 I would
be pretty excited adding Alonso to 1B and Bregman at 3B. Oh and a DH like AP.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Good points, the Cards need the pipeline of young, cost controlled MLB talent to compete with any consistency year to year, but possibly the Cards could have competed in the playoffs in some of the Goldy/Arenado years if both of them had led the team in the playoffs with good production instead of wilting away under the brighter lights.

Yea, that's definitely true. Aside from 2019 against Atlanta, Goldschmidt has been pretty bad for us in the playoffs. And it's only 3 games, but Arenado has been putrid. He got on base once (a single) in those three games.

Now, perhaps if they had a better supporting cast things might have turned out different, but they definitely didn't help themselves.

[Stlcardsblues]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

We just disagree. Getting to the playoffs is priority number one. If you clinch the playoffs then you try to win the division. Playoffs every year. That's the goal. Making some pie in the sky juggernaut is only optional for the biggest spenders who can buy premium talent and plug in more premium talent.

Completely disagree. Your approach was tried by them and led to mediocrity. Build it correctly now. Had they done it three years ago they could have been contenders now.

LOL...They won multiple championships and were a perennial contender for nearly two decades under "My approach".

The structure of baseball was different 15 years ago to 20 years ago. The game evolves. The 2006 team didn’t try your approach. That team was loaded. It just was injured and got healthy outside of Rolen at playoff time. Who was on the level of Carpenter, Rolen, Pujols or Edmonds on the 25 Cardinals that you feel it was similar?

Teams didn’t build teams in 2006 like they do now. There were

Carpenter was signed while being injured. They took a chance that he would come back from it. Rolen...from a trade. Edmonds...from a trade. Wainwright...from a trade. Eckstein...I believe it was a trade, but not sure. Walker...from a trade. Jeff Suppan...Trade I believe.

I have said many times that those teams were allowed by DeWitt to add important pieces around the MV3. Dewitt did not allow them to add impactful pieces the same way in recent years. They leaned way too heavy on Goldy and Arenado.

[CCard]

For those anti trading Gray and entering a rebuild I have a question. What realistic moves would you have made this offseason to make the Cardinals serious World Series contenders in 2026?

To begin with, I imagine we have a difference of opinion on "serious contender". My opinion is that if you make the playoffs then you're a serious contender. If you mean building some pie in the sky juggernaut basically through the draft and then supplementing with a high dollar talent, then we just can't agree on how to run an organization "for the fans". We've seen in real time how massive losing can allow for some young premium talent draft picks that possibly can lift a club for a few seasons before they have to get paid or traded. Very few of these scenarios end in a championship. Instead they wind up perpetual losers. Now on to the question:

I have no problem with the Gray deal if it yields at least one decent starter. Time will tell on that. They definitely need at least one more dependable top tier starter. Someone that can hold the other team down to a couple of runs. They definitely need improvement in the bullpen. At least two shutdown relievers and it wouldn't hurt to have three. They definitely need someone (probably left field) that can provide 100 rbi's and be an imposing presence in the lineup. Maybe even mentor Walker a bit. That's what it would take to be a playoff contender. Move the payroll up to 190 - 200 million would easily get this done. They will never ever be the kind of team that the Dodgers, Yanks, Phillies, Toronto's etc are. They simply won't pay that kind of salary. Could they be? Of course, they're owned by billionaires. DeWitt and the others could easily spend 240 - 250 million without even noticing it. They won't because they're cheap. Simple as that.

A serious contender is a team who is built to win the central and make a run at a deep playoff run.

It is not built to try for last playoff spot and hope for everything to break right to avoid getting swept in the first round. Cincinnati got in but was not a serious contender. You can build a serious playoff contender without spending at the level of the Dodgers.

It’s more difficult for smaller market teams, but can be done.

We just disagree. Getting to the playoffs is priority number one. If you clinch the playoffs then you try to win the division. Playoffs every year. That's the goal. Making some pie in the sky juggernaut is only optional for the biggest spenders who can buy premium talent and plug in more premium talent.

Completely disagree. Your approach was tried by them and led to mediocrity. Build it correctly now. Had they done it three years ago they could have been contenders now.

LOL...They won multiple championships and were a perennial contender for nearly two decades under "My approach".

The structure of baseball was different 15 years ago to 20 years ago. The game evolves. The 2006 team didn’t try your approach. That team was loaded. It just was injured and got healthy outside of Rolen at playoff time. Who was on the level of Carpenter, Rolen, Pujols or Edmonds on the 25 Cardinals that you feel it was similar?

Teams didn’t build teams in 2006 like they do now. There were

Carpenter was signed while being injured. They took a chance that he would come back from it. Rolen...from a trade. Edmonds...from a trade. Wainwright...from a trade. Eckstein...I believe it was a trade, but not sure. Walker...from a trade. Jeff Suppan...Trade I believe.

I have said many times that those teams were allowed by DeWitt to add important pieces around the MV3. Dewitt did not allow them to add impactful pieces the same way in recent years. They leaned way too heavy on Goldy and Arenado.

Looking at Arenado in 2025, is there a better option on the team? I don't see anyone producing like that and they can't wait to ship him off.

[CCard]

They got extremely lucky with signing a hurt Chris Carpenter and trading for a young minor league pitcher from Atlanta, Adam Wainwright. Without those two there are no championships. But they got Edmonds from the Angels and he starred for them. They have always had pretty good catchers, but getting Molina really made them strong up the middle with Edmonds in Center. A Molina doesn't come around often. Then of course they brought up Albert because of an injury to Bonilla and he stayed. They signed a little shortstop by the name of David Eckstein that played bigger than he should have. And Larry Walker. So it takes a lot more than drafting and developing. It takes acquiring talent at the major league level also.

No one ever claimed that you only draft and develop home grown players and don't acquire major league talent. My entire point is that you get really good at drafting and developing so that you have a good enough base, and maybe some homegrown stars, so that you can succeed by bringing in outside talent to take you to the next level. And that's exactly how the Cardinals had success for years.

You say the only way they win any championships is because of Adam Wainwright and Chris Carpenter. Maybe that's true, but I think you're excluding two HUGE homegrown players in Yadi and Albert. Also, they got Adam Wainwright because they traded a homegrown stud player in JD Drew for him. And they got Jim Edmonds because they traded a very good young homegrown player in Adam Kennedy for him.

So, you got Wainwright, Pujols, Molina, and Edmonds, two definite HOFers, one probably should be, and another pretty close. All either drafted and developed or traded for because of a player you drafted and developed. That allows you to go out and sign an Eckstein (a pretty low level signing that a lot of people panned at the time because they said they were being cheap for not re-signing Renteria) and a Larry Walker (salary dump) to put you over the top.

Yeah, we could do this all day long and get no where. I again state that drafting and developing is important and should be amongst one of the things that winning organizations do constantly and not on a whim. Nobody, and I mean nobody knew that Pujols would be that good. They knew Molina would be good defensively but nobody knew he would develop with the bat like he did. But he did that at the major league level.They got a great deal on Edmonds. They got a great deal on Wainwright, but again, he was a minor leaguer and could have turned into a bust. If they knew he would be that good, Atlanta would never have traded him for Drew. Not even straight up. Wainwright probably became the pitcher he was because of Dave Duncan. Eckstein was a lucky signing. The thing I'm stating is that you don't just depend on drafting and developing which takes years to produce. Winning is about winning now. You give yourself a chance to win every season, if not then why even field a team? Just let them play in the minors and field a team every 3 or 4 years. Stupid isn't it?

You never come to grips with the fact that you don't offer an implementable alternative.

The Cardinals are NEVER going to be able to pay five full market value stars/superstars on their roster at the same time, let alone another few above average players, and then a bunch of solid regulars/role players.

No matter how you want to define "competing", the Cardinals have to get (1) half of their talent and (2) over half of their 26 players from pre-ARB and ARB players. And most of those are going to have to be guys they developed themselves.

You don't want them to actually "compete", because we know they are in no position to do so right now. You just want them to "try" so that it makes you feel better. You want to be pacified by the "appearance of competing" not actually "competing."

LOL... You talk like the Cards are some broke dick dog. They were one of the highest drawing teams in MLB for a decade or more. They have revenue streams you can't even imagine. The one thing they don't have is the Mega tv deals that teams like New York and LA have, but until recently they had a tv deal that wasn't awful. It's hard to market a team that's 20 games out at the end of the season though. The Cards make well enough to have a payroll of 180-200 million. Stop with the cheap pity party. On top of that, Dewitt and his cabal are frigging billionaires. They aren't worried about a few million here and a few million there and yet they are. You might have some point with a team like Tampa that doesn't draw dick, but you can't claim that with the Cards and their following.