Contenders targeting high end depth at SP

[BrockFloodMaris]

I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

Are you aware there is zero chance of the Cardinals signing two aces and the plan doesnt include big money investments for 2026?

Yes. I am talking about the trickle down effect of all the top 10 likely signing above market because of demand and how to get a better arm then Libertore it will be expensiive. Anything less then just don’t spend at all and go with what they have. Bite the 50 win bullet

There is no trickle down in MLB revenue. No teams, outside of Chavez Ravine, are going to invest the nearly $1B it will take to build a massive rotation like that. Those commitments would sink a mid market team like the Cards. Not gonna happen. Draft, develop, trade. That will be the Cards SP talent source for the next ten years. I don’t think the new CBA will create enough financial parity to move MLB in the direction you describe. It will spread the talent somewhat, but only with a cap, a floor, and revenue sharing.

[renostl]

I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

Are you aware there is zero chance of the Cardinals signing two aces and the plan doesnt include big money investments for 2026?

Yes. I am talking about the trickle down effect of all the top 10 likely signing above market because of demand and how to get a better arm then Libertore it will be expensiive. Anything less then just don’t spend at all and go with what they have. Bite the 50 win bullet

This is where my should we not even field a MLB team while rebuilding thread from last month almost makes sense in some posters alternate universes.

The recipe of 5+ aces cannot be followed by many teams.
Those teams get the incredible advantages of depth, same as always.

Teams without that find it other ways, even rentals at the TD.
The farm, Wacha days, Yesavage more recent.
Once the post season starts, having just 2 of these guys can win it.


Aces, also are not forever, Nothing like diamonds. That designation changes and not
all are for sale. Not all want to live in LA or NY and not all want to be just
another guy, some want the ball and to lead, to beat the monopoly money teams.

[Youboughtit]

I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

Are you aware there is zero chance of the Cardinals signing two aces and the plan doesnt include big money investments for 2026?

Yes. I am talking about the trickle down effect of all the top 10 likely signing above market because of demand and how to get a better arm then Libertore it will be expensiive. Anything less then just don’t spend at all and go with what they have. Bite the 50 win bullet

There is no trickle down in MLB revenue. No teams, outside of Chavez Ravine, are going to invest the nearly $1B it will take to build a massive rotation like that. Those commitments would sink a mid market team like the Cards. Not gonna happen. Draft, develop, trade. That will be the Cards SP talent source for the next ten years. I don’t think the new CBA will create enough financial parity to move MLB in the direction you describe. It will spread the talent somewhat, but only with a cap, a floor, and revenue sharing.

Maybe but the big markets can still hoard more of the what I will call tier 2 SP making the tier 3 more expensive, look at the Cease contract. I think almost all of the top 10 SP exceed their projected contracts. That will definatly force the next tier to use that as leverage.

[Cusecards]

With Mikolas and now Gray gone I could possibly see a veteran SP signed to a one year deal similar to what they did with Lynn & Gibson.
Can Libby build on 2025?
McGreevey continue to progress in his first full season?
Fitts should get a look.
Leahy a maybe for the rotation?
Mathews might not make it for the opener but I would expect him to get his chance in the first half.
Who knows with Pallante??
There is zero reason to throw $$ and multi years at a FA this offseason.
Bloom would figure to hunt SP when he makes deals.

[renostl]

With Mikolas and now Gray gone I could possibly see a veteran SP signed to a one year deal similar to what they did with Lynn & Gibson.
Can Libby build on 2025?
McGreevey continue to progress in his first full season?
Fitts should get a look.
Leahy a maybe for the rotation?
Mathews might not make it for the opener but I would expect him to get his chance in the first half.
Who knows with Pallante??
There is zero reason to throw $$ and multi years at a FA this offseason.
Bloom would figure to hunt SP when he makes deals.

They certainly could go that direction.

A couple things on that though. Will the need for that extra bought pitching go away in
'27 or '28 even '29 and will the team still be in the rebuild?

IMO, If there is a SP that deserves a 3 or 4 year contract I would attempt to get him.
3 reasons, you're going to need him, decreases the revolving door and provides a steadier
rotation. Veteran leadership might benefit a group that lacks it even in the pitching
coach group.

They saved $20M out of the $40 owed Gray.

Turn that into 2 rotation pieces, FA, 26 y/o Fitts, and a 22 y/o number 7
SP prospect sounds okay.

[cardstatman]

Since they are tanking 2026 anyway, I rather see them use 8 to 10 young starting pitchers and shuffle them back and forth to AAA and the IL to monitor innings and keep them all healthy. I don't see a need for spending $10M on an innings eating veteran. Just roster a starter instead of that 6th, 7th, and 8th reliever that you refuse to use anyway because he usually can't throw even a single scoreless inning because he clearly doesn't belong on an MLB team. Then, when you do finally use him, he gets 2 outs on 35 pitches, leaves the bases loaded, and you have to use another reliever anyway.

McGreevy, Pallante, Liberatore, Fitts, Leahy, Mathews, Mautz, Graceffo, Hence?, some others in AAA or acquired in the fire sale trades.
Thompson, Henderson, Racjic, Hansen, too, if they earn a shot.

Just call it Memphis North and Memphis South. A wide open competition for who gets an MLB paycheck next month.

[renostl]

Since they are tanking 2026 anyway, I rather see them use 8 to 10 young starting pitchers and shuffle them back and forth to AAA and the IL to monitor innings and keep them all healthy. I don't see a need for spending $10M on an innings eating veteran. Just roster a starter instead of that 6th, 7th, and 8th reliever that you refuse to use anyway because he usually can't throw even a single scoreless inning because he clearly doesn't belong on an MLB team. Then, when you do finally use him, he gets 2 outs on 35 pitches, leaves the bases loaded, and you have to use another reliever anyway.

McGreevy, Pallante, Liberatore, Fitts, Leahy, Mathews, Mautz, Graceffo, Hence?, some others in AAA or acquired in the fire sale trades.
Thompson, Henderson, Racjic, Hansen, too, if they earn a shot.

Just call it Memphis North and Memphis South. A wide open competition for who gets an MLB paycheck next month.

You seem on track to getting to see what you want.

I wanted a bit more from whomever than a 1 year guy, temporary help.
Someone worthy of a #3 designation that might put a little skin in the organization.
There's value there, imo, or get an ex pitcher with some success on the coaching staff.

[2ninr]

The Cardinals are where they are because of having to pay for starting pitching. Mo is gone. The new guy is going to develope pitching. It couldn't be clearer. Not sure why these posts keep cycling thru.

I am talking about rotation with 5-7 Doyle types to do what these other teams are doing. That will not happen at one time with draft and develop only. I see the contenders having 3-4 aces and 3-4 2/3 types.

Hopefully. But it appears they won't buy them. It won't happen " at one time ". They will draft trade and develope until they get close. Than spend to fill in missing pieces. Might as well settle in.

[BrockFloodMaris]

I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

Are you aware there is zero chance of the Cardinals signing two aces and the plan doesnt include big money investments for 2026?

Yes. I am talking about the trickle down effect of all the top 10 likely signing above market because of demand and how to get a better arm then Libertore it will be expensiive. Anything less then just don’t spend at all and go with what they have. Bite the 50 win bullet

There is no trickle down in MLB revenue. No teams, outside of Chavez Ravine, are going to invest the nearly $1B it will take to build a massive rotation like that. Those commitments would sink a mid market team like the Cards. Not gonna happen. Draft, develop, trade. That will be the Cards SP talent source for the next ten years. I don’t think the new CBA will create enough financial parity to move MLB in the direction you describe. It will spread the talent somewhat, but only with a cap, a floor, and revenue sharing.

Maybe but the big markets can still hoard more of the what I will call tier 2 SP making the tier 3 more expensive, look at the Cease contract. I think almost all of the top 10 SP exceed their projected contracts. That will definatly force the next tier to use that as leverage.

I agree with you about the skyrocketing cost of SPs. We dont agree about how the mid market teams will pivot and respond. I think we will see more teams beefing up their player development systems to avoid having to spend big bucks in the FA market.

[sikeston bulldog2]

The Cardinals are where they are because of having to pay for starting pitching. Mo is gone. The new guy is going to develope pitching. It couldn't be clearer. Not sure why these posts keep cycling thru.

Because we have major league pitchers like a bad hand of spades. One and three possibles.

Yea that’s a bad hand. Especially if the board was 3 or 4. Tough to make.

[mattmitchl44]

I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

Are you aware there is zero chance of the Cardinals signing two aces and the plan doesnt include big money investments for 2026?

Yes. I am talking about the trickle down effect of all the top 10 likely signing above market because of demand and how to get a better arm then Libertore it will be expensiive. Anything less then just don’t spend at all and go with what they have. Bite the 50 win bullet

There is no trickle down in MLB revenue. No teams, outside of Chavez Ravine, are going to invest the nearly $1B it will take to build a massive rotation like that. Those commitments would sink a mid market team like the Cards. Not gonna happen. Draft, develop, trade. That will be the Cards SP talent source for the next ten years. I don’t think the new CBA will create enough financial parity to move MLB in the direction you describe. It will spread the talent somewhat, but only with a cap, a floor, and revenue sharing.

Maybe but the big markets can still hoard more of the what I will call tier 2 SP making the tier 3 more expensive, look at the Cease contract. I think almost all of the top 10 SP exceed their projected contracts. That will definatly force the next tier to use that as leverage.

I agree with you about the skyrocketing cost of SPs. We dont agree about how the mid market teams will pivot and respond. I think we will see more teams beefing up their player development systems to avoid having to spend big bucks in the FA market.

Yeah, I know I keep making this case over and over again - as the difference between the top FAs getting $30, $35, $40, etc. million a year and the ML minimum of under $1 million grows, the ONLY option the mid and small market teams have is to lean more heavily on player development.

[sikeston bulldog2]

I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

Are you aware there is zero chance of the Cardinals signing two aces and the plan doesnt include big money investments for 2026?

Yes. I am talking about the trickle down effect of all the top 10 likely signing above market because of demand and how to get a better arm then Libertore it will be expensiive. Anything less then just don’t spend at all and go with what they have. Bite the 50 win bullet

There is no trickle down in MLB revenue. No teams, outside of Chavez Ravine, are going to invest the nearly $1B it will take to build a massive rotation like that. Those commitments would sink a mid market team like the Cards. Not gonna happen. Draft, develop, trade. That will be the Cards SP talent source for the next ten years. I don’t think the new CBA will create enough financial parity to move MLB in the direction you describe. It will spread the talent somewhat, but only with a cap, a floor, and revenue sharing.

Maybe but the big markets can still hoard more of the what I will call tier 2 SP making the tier 3 more expensive, look at the Cease contract. I think almost all of the top 10 SP exceed their projected contracts. That will definatly force the next tier to use that as leverage.

I agree with you about the skyrocketing cost of SPs. We dont agree about how the mid market teams will pivot and respond. I think we will see more teams beefing up their player development systems to avoid having to spend big bucks in the FA market.

Yeah, I know I keep making this case over and over again - as the difference between the top FAs getting $30, $35, $40, etc. million a year and the ML minimum of under $1 million grows, the ONLY option the mid and small market teams have is to lean more heavily on player development.

Ok. After we build from within, time is essential. But you’re telling me, once the pipeline is in place, then we emerge as a league leader in developing players, independent of free agency.

Helps both the current team and any future trades.

[Idaho Cards]

The Cardinals aren’t going to pay “ace” money to an ace starter. Hopefully the Cardinals are successful acquiring good young pitching when they trade the guys they are going to move. I also hope they target a couple of guys early that they are interested in as FAs that might be coming off down years or possibly small injuries and go hard after them.

Guys like Buehler, May, Mahle would be my targets. If the Cardinals could land 2 of them with what they have and what they might acquire would be a good start. We are all anxiously waiting to see the Cardinals direction.

This post sums up what I believe the Cardinals are doing and will do. Makes financial sense and allows us to reasonably compete.

[scoutyjones2]

Lol...I don't see Atlanta or the Giants as contenders...not even the Padres

I am talking teams with top 10 payrolls and view their windows as open. Yes big markets but it’s the trickle down effect I am recferrring to. That Dodger model last year changed things. They’d are now going top end deep and it’s raising the mid tier cost for small market wannabes like the Cardinals. If the cardinals don’t want to be left with Mikolas they need to jump early and go get a “Ace” that is at least better than Libertore.

You're just making [shirt] up. Why not show these reports for what you profess?

Again, you named contenders being the Braves, Giants and Padres...which I believe aren't contenders...

[BrockFloodMaris]

I have seen many reports that the Yankees Atlanta Giants Padres Toronto Philly and all the contenders will try to go with 7 or more SP following the Dodgers program last year of having 10 and limiting all their IP. Any discomfort and a brief IL stint. That is going to make the mid tier SP market thin fast and go above market. Hope Dewitt realizes this and attacks early. I fear a Mikolas type is best they will add when they really need to add to top of rotation. Libertore the #1 is really a #3-4

Are you aware there is zero chance of the Cardinals signing two aces and the plan doesnt include big money investments for 2026?

Yes. I am talking about the trickle down effect of all the top 10 likely signing above market because of demand and how to get a better arm then Libertore it will be expensiive. Anything less then just don’t spend at all and go with what they have. Bite the 50 win bullet

There is no trickle down in MLB revenue. No teams, outside of Chavez Ravine, are going to invest the nearly $1B it will take to build a massive rotation like that. Those commitments would sink a mid market team like the Cards. Not gonna happen. Draft, develop, trade. That will be the Cards SP talent source for the next ten years. I don’t think the new CBA will create enough financial parity to move MLB in the direction you describe. It will spread the talent somewhat, but only with a cap, a floor, and revenue sharing.

Maybe but the big markets can still hoard more of the what I will call tier 2 SP making the tier 3 more expensive, look at the Cease contract. I think almost all of the top 10 SP exceed their projected contracts. That will definatly force the next tier to use that as leverage.

I agree with you about the skyrocketing cost of SPs. We dont agree about how the mid market teams will pivot and respond. I think we will see more teams beefing up their player development systems to avoid having to spend big bucks in the FA market.

Yeah, I know I keep making this case over and over again - as the difference between the top FAs getting $30, $35, $40, etc. million a year and the ML minimum of under $1 million grows, the ONLY option the mid and small market teams have is to lean more heavily on player development.

Ok. After we build from within, time is essential. But you’re telling me, once the pipeline is in place, then we emerge as a league leader in developing players, independent of free agency.

Helps both the current team and any future trades.

I think a lot of that depends on the new CBA. A cap will help. A floor will help. Revenue sharing will help. We are not likely to get all three. The worst trend in the SP market is the dilution of talent. Some of the guys who are getting monster contracts are just not that good. What MLB needs more than anything is an influx of young pitching talent. Supply and demand is just currently tilted heavily in favor of the MLBPA.

[rockondlouie]

The Cardinals are where they are because of having to pay for starting pitching. Mo is gone. The new guy is going to develope pitching. It couldn't be clearer. Not sure why these posts keep cycling thru.

^^^THIS^^^

Just read this morning that in all his conversations w/fellow POBO/GM's asking about Donny, WillyC, NADO and of course we already know S. Gray, Bloom has told them it has to be young starting pitchers w/upside.

He's collecting as many pitching prospects as possible which is the smart move to make.

I always hated the idea of signing big money FA pitchers, love the idea of signing stud FA hitters!

Develop pitching thru your minor league system.............trade for or sign hitters.