Maybe the Cardinals finally get it...

[sikeston bulldog2]

...when it comes to modern, pitching prospects.

Instead of their antiquated, pitch-to-contact, try to get groundballs approach to prioritizing pitchers, get fastball-slider guys who throw really hard (Fitts 60/60 FB, 55/55 SL; Clarke 60/60 FB, 70/80 SL; Doyle 70/70 FB, 50/60 SL). If you can get fastball-slider guys to develop one more pitch and better control, you have the makings of a FOR SP. And even if you can't, you can fill a bullpen with dominant fastball-slider guys and be able to shut down games from the sixth inning on.

Their traditional soft tossing, pitch-to-contact, try to get groundballs pitchers almost always have a limited ceiling and a basement of being unusable instead of a floor.

Since when have they had a pitch-to-contact approach? Not for almost 10 years. They seem to have many hard-throwing prospects come up, who couldn’t hit the side of a barn

Maybe Mikolas and Pallante are who you’re thinking of. Yet they succeeded when they have command of their pitches.

Contact pitchers who have good command of the zone - changing speeds andhitting the outside corners - will still succeed in this era.

As a team, the Cardinals have been 29th in K/9 over the last three seasons, 29th in K/9 over the last five seasons, and 26th in K/9 over the last 10 seasons. They have not prioritized "strikeout stuff" on their pitching staff.

The Cards were less than 1 strikeout per game lower than league average, and less than 2 strikeouts per game lower than the league leader.

Is that meaningful? Are two SOs a game what did it in for the Cards’ staff?

Seems like it turns out to be meaningful.

Of the top 10 teams in K/9, eight had team ERAs under 4.00. Of the bottom 10 teams in K/9, seven had team ERAs above 4.00.

Maybe not a "decisive" difference, but a meaningful one.

I don’t think you’ve made a case for meaning in 2 SOs per game. What you’ve instead now pivoted to is overall stats correlating with better pitching staffs. However, there’s no causation proven that 2 extra SOs per game is the difference maker from a bottom of the league staff and a top of the league staff.

Just for a minute, remove yourself from the numbers and think about the actual game. Two SOs. Maybe one extra in the 2nd inning and one in the 7th. That’s it. The difference between the Rockies and the Dodgers, according to your argument.

Maybe barrel rates become lower versus pitchers who are more difficult to hit

Exactly my point. So many other positive outcomes with a guy throwing BB’s.

[Adam2]

...when it comes to modern, pitching prospects.

Instead of their antiquated, pitch-to-contact, try to get groundballs approach to prioritizing pitchers, get fastball-slider guys who throw really hard (Fitts 60/60 FB, 55/55 SL; Clarke 60/60 FB, 70/80 SL; Doyle 70/70 FB, 50/60 SL). If you can get fastball-slider guys to develop one more pitch and better control, you have the makings of a FOR SP. And even if you can't, you can fill a bullpen with dominant fastball-slider guys and be able to shut down games from the sixth inning on.

Their traditional soft tossing, pitch-to-contact, try to get groundballs pitchers almost always have a limited ceiling and a basement of being unusable instead of a floor.

Since when have they had a pitch-to-contact approach? Not for almost 10 years. They seem to have many hard-throwing prospects come up, who couldn’t hit the side of a barn

Maybe Mikolas and Pallante are who you’re thinking of. Yet they succeeded when they have command of their pitches.

Contact pitchers who have good command of the zone - changing speeds andhitting the outside corners - will still succeed in this era.

mcgreevy is pitch to contact

[alw80]

Load up on pitchers. You can save a lot of money on your rotation and BP by supplying your own pitchers from your system.

The Dodgers model. If one thing stands out other than loading up with stars, it’s the dodgers staff. They have more on the IL than most have on roster.

Following a the dodgers model.

Sort of, the Dodgers bought a lot of their pitchers.

[mattmitchl44]

Load up on pitchers. You can save a lot of money on your rotation and BP by supplying your own pitchers from your system.

The Dodgers model. If one thing stands out other than loading up with stars, it’s the dodgers staff. They have more on the IL than most have on roster.

Following a the dodgers model.

Sort of, the Dodgers bought a lot of their pitchers.

FWIW - the Dodgers are, of course, usually among the leaders in team K/9 (1st last year, 6th over the last 5 years, 3rd over the last 10 years, etc.)

[Voldemort]

...when it comes to modern, pitching prospects.

Instead of their antiquated, pitch-to-contact, try to get groundballs approach to prioritizing pitchers, get fastball-slider guys who throw really hard (Fitts 60/60 FB, 55/55 SL; Clarke 60/60 FB, 70/80 SL; Doyle 70/70 FB, 50/60 SL). If you can get fastball-slider guys to develop one more pitch and better control, you have the makings of a FOR SP. And even if you can't, you can fill a bullpen with dominant fastball-slider guys and be able to shut down games from the sixth inning on.

Their traditional soft tossing, pitch-to-contact, try to get groundballs pitchers almost always have a limited ceiling and a basement of being unusable instead of a floor.

Matt, the great equalizer in MLB is the changeup. The Cardinals need to have pitchers who can keep hitters off balance with a great changeup.

[Goldfan]

Surprisingly the Cards had the most 100 mph pitches over the last however many seasons……

[mattmitchl44]

Surprisingly the Cards had the most 100 mph pitches over the last however many seasons……

Link?

Who have they had to can reach 100 mph? Helsley and Hicks? And Hicks hasn't pitched for STL for 2.5 seasons.

[rockondlouie]

...when it comes to modern, pitching prospects.

Instead of their antiquated, pitch-to-contact, try to get groundballs approach to prioritizing pitchers, get fastball-slider guys who throw really hard (Fitts 60/60 FB, 55/55 SL; Clarke 60/60 FB, 70/80 SL; Doyle 70/70 FB, 50/60 SL). If you can get fastball-slider guys to develop one more pitch and better control, you have the makings of a FOR SP. And even if you can't, you can fill a bullpen with dominant fastball-slider guys and be able to shut down games from the sixth inning on.

Their traditional soft tossing, pitch-to-contact, try to get groundballs pitchers almost always have a limited ceiling and a basement of being unusable instead of a floor.

I think we saw C. Bloom's influence in the Doyle selection last year, again now w/Clark and others drafted since he came on-board.

Power pitching has been the way to go now for some time (power hitting too and I look for Bloom to address this thru the draft, FA and trades too).

Mo continued to operate like he still had D. Duncan running the pitching staff.

[Goldfan]

Surprisingly the Cards had the most 100 mph pitches over the last however many seasons……

Link?

Who have they had to can reach 100 mph? Helsley and Hicks? And Hicks hasn't pitched for STL for 2.5 seasons.

Saw it on X a couple weeks ago…..most likely those 2

[hugeCardfan]

...when it comes to modern, pitching prospects.

Instead of their antiquated, pitch-to-contact, try to get groundballs approach to prioritizing pitchers, get fastball-slider guys who throw really hard (Fitts 60/60 FB, 55/55 SL; Clarke 60/60 FB, 70/80 SL; Doyle 70/70 FB, 50/60 SL). If you can get fastball-slider guys to develop one more pitch and better control, you have the makings of a FOR SP. And even if you can't, you can fill a bullpen with dominant fastball-slider guys and be able to shut down games from the sixth inning on.

Their traditional soft tossing, pitch-to-contact, try to get groundballs pitchers almost always have a limited ceiling and a basement of being unusable instead of a floor.

RIP Dave Duncan...

BTW - even in the Dave Duncan era (1996-2011), the Cardinals were 22nd in K/9, not 29th. Even the guru of pitch to contact, get groundballs had staffs that were a bit more in line with MLB averages than they have been recently.

Dave didn't hate K'ing the opponents, he just hated BB's. He would have no intention of turning Carpenter into a pitch to contact hurler, but he could take a sow's ear and turn it into a silk purse better than anybody. Tony wouldn't leave home without him.