Rebuilding Checklist

[zuck698]

But you can see that their whole "business plan" for the ML team in undergoing a seismic shift right now. Their "business plan" IS changing. Going from consistently increasing payrolls for 20 years to a sharp drop of 40% or 50% IS a change. You can't say "he's never going to change his business plan" when they are, obviously, already changing their business plan!

Why can you not allot for the possibility that there will be a similar shift (toward "advanced spending before attendance rebounds") at the end of this process?

The shift is actually nothing more than a return to the "old" plan, one Dewitt ran beautifully with the help of J. Luhnow.

The only "change" is a Back to the Future emphasis on drafting & developing a steady stream of quality minor leaguers.

I think Bloom is the right man to make that happen.

And this sharp drop in payroll was planned all along by Dewitt, one of the most powerful owners in MLB, who wanted to cut his payroll to the bare bones before negotiations start on the new CBA.

I can absolutely say he's (likely) never going to change his business plan when it comes to setting payrollb, which you know is what I was referring to and not the philosophical change in how to construct the roster via player development.

Why can't you grasp this MULTI DECADE fact when it comes to how Dewitt sets his payroll?

Attendance Size sets the following seasons Payroll

And with 2 million or probably even less after many years of this yutes rebuild, people think the "Dry Powder" will just magically start flowing again when the rebuild is ready to add? I am not convinced. Welcome to the new Pittsburgh Lou! Only hope is CBA changes for the "less fortunate" teams. You know, like the poor DeWitts.

Neither am I zuck'

I just can't see them drawing 2M in 2026 and then BDWJr miraculously upping the payroll to $180M once the next CBA is in place.

DeWitt needs to decide if he wants to compete or simply offer an entertainment option. He will profit either way. Attendance increases if he spends more. But does that generate as much $ as a low payroll and less attendance? What's it going to be Billy Boy? You got the balls to compete or is it all about making some money?

Absolutely

The old adage:
"It takes money to make money" certainly applies to the Cardinals if Dewitt wants to get back to that 3+M.

You would think 3 million fans and post season play would be much more profitable. Maybe not.

Oh it is juan

Then factor in the spill over into BPV and all that revenue to the Dewitt's as well.

It makes no sense for DeWitt to slash payroll. Sign at least one good free agent pitcher and a capable bat. Give the team a chance.

None

He's playing poor mouth like he's the Pirates, Rockies, A's, Royals, ect.........when he's banked multi-millions in retained earnings from over two decades of 3+M attendance while seeing his initial $75M after sale of the garages/land grow to over $2.5 billion.

I said this last off season when he started to slash payroll, the "re-build" was simply a smokescreen for him to slash payroll to the barebones before the CBA negotiations.

I agree 100% w/re-building & re-stocking the minor league system but Dewitt has the funds to walk (do that) & chew gum (still field a competitive team) at the same time.

The franchise fell into disarrays simply because the WRONG man was put in charge and kept there for too long, Mo.

C. Bloom shouldn't have to pay (w/a tiny payroll) for Mo's mismanagement.

No doubt, Rock. DeWitt should give Bloom a competitive level payroll. Allow him to sign a couple good MLB free agents to fill needs. Then Bloom has more flexibility with potential trades and what he asks for in return.

I would've loved to have seen Dewitt, at that presser, say he was going to give Bloom the same financial support he gave Mo ($180M payroll) and see what he can do w/it.

The re-tooling of the minor league system (and Bloom is still adding brain power to it!) is complete, nothing they now do at the big league level can hamper it!

Our only hope is Dewitt, after the new CBA is in place, does up the payroll back to $180+M.

But I have my doubts given his stated business plan years ago that strong ATTENDANCE determines how high the PAYROLL will be.

Yes!! He has not deviated from this payroll stance for 30 years. Why anyone thinks he is going to spend money when attendance is down, I have no clue? Fredo has backed that concept as well. It is really black and white with him on that topic. That is the one of the main concerns that many of us have with only focusing on rebulding. I think Bloom could do wonders with $180-$200mil budget, because I think he is vastly competent to Mo. But if fans don't show up, and they won't for losing baseball as demonstrated last year, then my fear is we may never know how good of a G.M. he could be with that amount of payroll.

[rockondlouie]

The shift is actually nothing more than a return to the "old" plan, one Dewitt ran beautifully with the help of J. Luhnow.

The only "change" is a Back to the Future emphasis on drafting & developing a steady stream of quality minor leaguers.

I think Bloom is the right man to make that happen.

And this sharp drop in payroll was planned all along by Dewitt, one of the most powerful owners in MLB, who wanted to cut his payroll to the bare bones before negotiations start on the new CBA.

I can absolutely say he's (likely) never going to change his business plan when it comes to setting payrollb, which you know is what I was referring to and not the philosophical change in how to construct the roster via player development.

Why can't you grasp this MULTI DECADE fact when it comes to how Dewitt sets his payroll?

Attendance Size sets the following seasons Payroll

And with 2 million or probably even less after many years of this yutes rebuild, people think the "Dry Powder" will just magically start flowing again when the rebuild is ready to add? I am not convinced. Welcome to the new Pittsburgh Lou! Only hope is CBA changes for the "less fortunate" teams. You know, like the poor DeWitts.

Neither am I zuck'

I just can't see them drawing 2M in 2026 and then BDWJr miraculously upping the payroll to $180M once the next CBA is in place.

DeWitt needs to decide if he wants to compete or simply offer an entertainment option. He will profit either way. Attendance increases if he spends more. But does that generate as much $ as a low payroll and less attendance? What's it going to be Billy Boy? You got the balls to compete or is it all about making some money?

Absolutely

The old adage:
"It takes money to make money" certainly applies to the Cardinals if Dewitt wants to get back to that 3+M.

You would think 3 million fans and post season play would be much more profitable. Maybe not.

Oh it is juan

Then factor in the spill over into BPV and all that revenue to the Dewitt's as well.

It makes no sense for DeWitt to slash payroll. Sign at least one good free agent pitcher and a capable bat. Give the team a chance.

None

He's playing poor mouth like he's the Pirates, Rockies, A's, Royals, ect.........when he's banked multi-millions in retained earnings from over two decades of 3+M attendance while seeing his initial $75M after sale of the garages/land grow to over $2.5 billion.

I said this last off season when he started to slash payroll, the "re-build" was simply a smokescreen for him to slash payroll to the barebones before the CBA negotiations.

I agree 100% w/re-building & re-stocking the minor league system but Dewitt has the funds to walk (do that) & chew gum (still field a competitive team) at the same time.

The franchise fell into disarrays simply because the WRONG man was put in charge and kept there for too long, Mo.

C. Bloom shouldn't have to pay (w/a tiny payroll) for Mo's mismanagement.

No doubt, Rock. DeWitt should give Bloom a competitive level payroll. Allow him to sign a couple good MLB free agents to fill needs. Then Bloom has more flexibility with potential trades and what he asks for in return.

I would've loved to have seen Dewitt, at that presser, say he was going to give Bloom the same financial support he gave Mo ($180M payroll) and see what he can do w/it.

The re-tooling of the minor league system (and Bloom is still adding brain power to it!) is complete, nothing they now do at the big league level can hamper it!

Our only hope is Dewitt, after the new CBA is in place, does up the payroll back to $180+M.

But I have my doubts given his stated business plan years ago that strong ATTENDANCE determines how high the PAYROLL will be.

Yes!! He has not deviated from this payroll stance for 30 years. Why anyone thinks he is going to spend money when attendance is down, I have no clue? Fredo has backed that concept as well. It is really black and white with him on that topic. That is the one of the main concerns that many of us have with only focusing on rebulding. I think Bloom could do wonders with $180-$200mil budget, because I think he is vastly competent to Mo. But if fans don't show up, and they won't for losing baseball as demonstrated last year, then my fear is we may never know how good of a G.M. he could be with that amount of payroll.

And they (those who claim he'll up the payroll to $180-200M once the system starts churning out young, cost controlled players BUT before attendance rebounds anywhere close to 3+M) have no clue either.

Bloom got hosed by BoSox ownership, I sure hope Dewitt doesn't do it to him too.

Give the man $180M payroll no later than 2027, after the new CBA is in place, and see what a smarter - than - Mo POBO can do!

[JuanAgosto]

But you can see that their whole "business plan" for the ML team in undergoing a seismic shift right now. Their "business plan" IS changing. Going from consistently increasing payrolls for 20 years to a sharp drop of 40% or 50% IS a change. You can't say "he's never going to change his business plan" when they are, obviously, already changing their business plan!

Why can you not allot for the possibility that there will be a similar shift (toward "advanced spending before attendance rebounds") at the end of this process?

The shift is actually nothing more than a return to the "old" plan, one Dewitt ran beautifully with the help of J. Luhnow.

The only "change" is a Back to the Future emphasis on drafting & developing a steady stream of quality minor leaguers.

I think Bloom is the right man to make that happen.

And this sharp drop in payroll was planned all along by Dewitt, one of the most powerful owners in MLB, who wanted to cut his payroll to the bare bones before negotiations start on the new CBA.

I can absolutely say he's (likely) never going to change his business plan when it comes to setting payrollb, which you know is what I was referring to and not the philosophical change in how to construct the roster via player development.

Why can't you grasp this MULTI DECADE fact when it comes to how Dewitt sets his payroll?

Attendance Size sets the following seasons Payroll

And with 2 million or probably even less after many years of this yutes rebuild, people think the "Dry Powder" will just magically start flowing again when the rebuild is ready to add? I am not convinced. Welcome to the new Pittsburgh Lou! Only hope is CBA changes for the "less fortunate" teams. You know, like the poor DeWitts.

Neither am I zuck'

I just can't see them drawing 2M in 2026 and then BDWJr miraculously upping the payroll to $180M once the next CBA is in place.

DeWitt needs to decide if he wants to compete or simply offer an entertainment option. He will profit either way. Attendance increases if he spends more. But does that generate as much $ as a low payroll and less attendance? What's it going to be Billy Boy? You got the balls to compete or is it all about making some money?

Absolutely

The old adage:
"It takes money to make money" certainly applies to the Cardinals if Dewitt wants to get back to that 3+M.

You would think 3 million fans and post season play would be much more profitable. Maybe not.

Oh it is juan

Then factor in the spill over into BPV and all that revenue to the Dewitt's as well.

It makes no sense for DeWitt to slash payroll. Sign at least one good free agent pitcher and a capable bat. Give the team a chance.

None

He's playing poor mouth like he's the Pirates, Rockies, A's, Royals, ect.........when he's banked multi-millions in retained earnings from over two decades of 3+M attendance while seeing his initial $75M after sale of the garages/land grow to over $2.5 billion.

I said this last off season when he started to slash payroll, the "re-build" was simply a smokescreen for him to slash payroll to the barebones before the CBA negotiations.

I agree 100% w/re-building & re-stocking the minor league system but Dewitt has the funds to walk (do that) & chew gum (still field a competitive team) at the same time.

The franchise fell into disarrays simply because the WRONG man was put in charge and kept there for too long, Mo.

C. Bloom shouldn't have to pay (w/a tiny payroll) for Mo's mismanagement.

No doubt, Rock. DeWitt should give Bloom a competitive level payroll. Allow him to sign a couple good MLB free agents to fill needs. Then Bloom has more flexibility with potential trades and what he asks for in return.

I would've loved to have seen Dewitt, at that presser, say he was going to give Bloom the same financial support he gave Mo ($180M payroll) and see what he can do w/it.

The re-tooling of the minor league system (and Bloom is still adding brain power to it!) is complete, nothing they now do at the big league level can hamper it!

Our only hope is Dewitt, after the new CBA is in place, does up the payroll back to $180+M.

But I have my doubts given his stated business plan years ago that strong ATTENDANCE determines how high the PAYROLL will be.

Catch 22. Got to lure the fans back. 3 million aren't showing up to watch Villade and Hampson or Roycroft and Fernandez.

[CCard]

There are a lot go players that do great things on the backside of 30. Give me a great pitcher who's in his thirties as opposed to some young phenom that can't throw strikes or win games. Players, just like people, don't all age the same. I dare say that Arenado right now is the best defensive option at 3rd base for the Cards. He's not chopped liver on offense either. I'd rather see him at the plate than Gorman right now.

Obviously players don't all age the same. But you can't know in advance who is going age and avoid injury better than someone else. You can only play the probabilities.

And if you sign a guy from age 32 to age 37 (a six year deal), the probabilities are:

- If they are going to have 1-2 great years left, they're more likely to be at age 32/33
- If they are going to have 1-2 average to good years, they're more likely to be at age 34/35
- If they are going have just 1-2 bad years, they're more likely to be at age 36/37

And if Arenado weren't objectively bad at this point (just 0.9 fWAR last year) we wouldn't be talking about how much of his salary the Cardinals are going to have to eat just to move him.

That's somewhat true except virtually all long contracts end that way. Even the very greatest players produce less at the end. Contracts are figured with that in mind. Sometimes they can be flipped while eating some of the contract, sometimes not. I'll be honest with you, I don't see a better 3rd base option for the Cards than Arenado. He's still not decrepit and it isn't impossible for him to put up decent numbers, especially if he gets some protection in the lineup which is why I'm a proponent of signing an rbi bat for left field. Anyway, if you don't offer big contracts then you aren't going to get big talent. It's the way of baseball.

[mattmitchl44]

There are a lot go players that do great things on the backside of 30. Give me a great pitcher who's in his thirties as opposed to some young phenom that can't throw strikes or win games. Players, just like people, don't all age the same. I dare say that Arenado right now is the best defensive option at 3rd base for the Cards. He's not chopped liver on offense either. I'd rather see him at the plate than Gorman right now.

Obviously players don't all age the same. But you can't know in advance who is going age and avoid injury better than someone else. You can only play the probabilities.

And if you sign a guy from age 32 to age 37 (a six year deal), the probabilities are:

- If they are going to have 1-2 great years left, they're more likely to be at age 32/33
- If they are going to have 1-2 average to good years, they're more likely to be at age 34/35
- If they are going have just 1-2 bad years, they're more likely to be at age 36/37

And if Arenado weren't objectively bad at this point (just 0.9 fWAR last year) we wouldn't be talking about how much of his salary the Cardinals are going to have to eat just to move him.

That's somewhat true except virtually all long contracts end that way. Even the very greatest players produce less at the end. Contracts are figured with that in mind. Sometimes they can be flipped while eating some of the contract, sometimes not. I'll be honest with you, I don't see a better 3rd base option for the Cards than Arenado. He's still not decrepit and it isn't impossible for him to put up decent numbers, especially if he gets some protection in the lineup which is why I'm a proponent of signing an rbi bat for left field. Anyway, if you don't offer big contracts then you aren't going to get big talent. It's the way of baseball.

I don't disagree at all.

But that is exactly why I have been saying it is very important for the Cardinals to time the signing of guys to contracts like that to synch up with when the rest of their roster is fully primed to "win now."

If/when you have Wetherholt being an All-Star level player in 2-3 yrs., Doyle being an All-Star level player in 2-3 years, etc. - that is when you want to be able to go out and sign guys who are age 32/33 at that time so that you can take advantage of their best remaining years rather than having signed age 32/33 players in 2026 who will be age 35/36 players when you are really ready to "win now."