What are we building around?

[Karmaloop3]

Think Masyn Winn and Ivan Herrera's bat are the only two offensive players currently on the 25 man roster they're building around. And Herrera is more tied to his health. Pitching wise, I think they're hoping McGreevy can help stabilize the rotation. I think Liberatore clearly fell off in the 2nd half of the season, but the innings crunch is going to make him hard to deal short of a massive overpay.

[Jatalk]

We won’t know who we are building around until spring training. Plus we may be building around a player or players not on the roster but received from trades. Heck it might even be a free agent but I doubt it.

My point is ever current player is on the trade block for the right deal imo.

[rage-STL]

Start here and see what develops

Tatis Jr - RF
Wetherholt - 2B
Contreras - 1B
Burleson - DH
Herrera - C
Nootbaar - LF
Winn - SS
Gorman - 3B
Scott - CF

Ranger Suarez
Dustin May
Michael McGreevy
Matthew Liberatore
Andre Pallante

[Carp4Cy]

I think what they are generally planning to build around right now is:

C/DH - Herrera
1B - Burleson
2B - Wetherholt
SS - Winn

SP - Doyle
SP - Liberatore

and Leahy, Svanson, O'Brien to a lesser degree somewhere in the pitching mix. Maybe Saggese as a bench player.

and then a next-level buy in for:

OF - Josh Baez
C- Bernal/Rodriguez
SP - Mathews
SP/RP - Hence
SP/RP - Franklin

Then you have reclamation projects like Gorman, Walker, maybe Nootbaar that you're not counting but maybe just hoping to get more out of.

Yeah, have to say that is pretty accurate.
[fork]ing rebuild here we come.
Gonna be so exciting.

What is the ******* alternative?!?

We've already watched them try the alternative of slapping band-aid after band-aid on the ML roster for the last decade. And they've got one NLCS trip where they got swept, three first round playoff losses, and a bunch of missed playoffs seasons to show for it.

Is that what we want to continue?!?

Stop acting like there’s only two alternatives.

If someone bought the team and let Bloom spend $180-$200 million, smartly, instead of how mo spent it - you would think he could do a whole lot better. As well as hiring a top 5 manager.

[Ronnie Dobbs]

Have not seen McGreevy's name mentioned.

I thought the same thing. Maybe “build around “ is a strong word. No, he’s not going to be a top of the rotation starter, but a young, affordable starting pitcher who can give you innings is a valuable piece to have.

[Cardinals4Life]

I think what they are generally planning to build around right now is:

C/DH - Herrera
1B - Burleson
2B - Wetherholt
SS - Winn

SP - Doyle
SP - Liberatore

and Leahy, Svanson, O'Brien to a lesser degree somewhere in the pitching mix. Maybe Saggese as a bench player.

and then a next-level buy in for:

OF - Josh Baez
C- Bernal/Rodriguez
SP - Mathews
SP/RP - Hence
SP/RP - Franklin

Then you have reclamation projects like Gorman, Walker, maybe Nootbaar that you're not counting but maybe just hoping to get more out of.

Yeah, have to say that is pretty accurate.
[fork]ing rebuild here we come.
Gonna be so exciting.

What is the ******* alternative?!?

We've already watched them try the alternative of slapping band-aid after band-aid on the ML roster for the last decade. And they've got one NLCS trip where they got swept, three first round playoff losses, and a bunch of missed playoffs seasons to show for it.

Is that what we want to continue?!?

You know the answer to this, but refuse to listen.

[Ozziesfan41]

I think what they are generally planning to build around right now is:

C/DH - Herrera
1B - Burleson
2B - Wetherholt
SS - Winn

SP - Doyle
SP - Liberatore

and Leahy, Svanson, O'Brien to a lesser degree somewhere in the pitching mix. Maybe Saggese as a bench player.

and then a next-level buy in for:

OF - Josh Baez
C- Bernal/Rodriguez
SP - Mathews
SP/RP - Hence
SP/RP - Franklin

Then you have reclamation projects like Gorman, Walker, maybe Nootbaar that you're not counting but maybe just hoping to get more out of.

Yeah, have to say that is pretty accurate.
[fork]ing rebuild here we come.
Gonna be so exciting.

What is the ******* alternative?!?

We've already watched them try the alternative of slapping band-aid after band-aid on the ML roster for the last decade. And they've got one NLCS trip where they got swept, three first round playoff losses, and a bunch of missed playoffs seasons to show for it.

Is that what we want to continue?!?

Stop acting like there’s only two alternatives.

If someone bought the team and let Bloom spend $180-$200 million, smartly, instead of how mo spent it - you would think he could do a whole lot better. As well as hiring a top 5 manager.

We are talking about realistic options. Dewitt’s not selling he’s not giving him 180-200 million payroll at least not right now. And right now there is no alternative it’s a rebuild it’s happening crying won’t change it

[mattmitchl44]

I think what they are generally planning to build around right now is:

C/DH - Herrera
1B - Burleson
2B - Wetherholt
SS - Winn

SP - Doyle
SP - Liberatore

and Leahy, Svanson, O'Brien to a lesser degree somewhere in the pitching mix. Maybe Saggese as a bench player.

and then a next-level buy in for:

OF - Josh Baez
C- Bernal/Rodriguez
SP - Mathews
SP/RP - Hence
SP/RP - Franklin

Then you have reclamation projects like Gorman, Walker, maybe Nootbaar that you're not counting but maybe just hoping to get more out of.

Yeah, have to say that is pretty accurate.
[fork]ing rebuild here we come.
Gonna be so exciting.

What is the ******* alternative?!?

We've already watched them try the alternative of slapping band-aid after band-aid on the ML roster for the last decade. And they've got one NLCS trip where they got swept, three first round playoff losses, and a bunch of missed playoffs seasons to show for it.

Is that what we want to continue?!?

Stop acting like there’s only two alternatives.

If someone bought the team and let Bloom spend $180-$200 million, smartly, instead of how mo spent it - you would think he could do a whole lot better. As well as hiring a top 5 manager.

Let me repeat what I've said over and over and over again - yes, they EVENTUALLY will need to spend back at the ~$180 million level in order to be really competitive with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc.

But a big part of spending smartly is (1) defining exactly what needs you should be spending money on and then (2) getting FAs who are still at their peak to fill those needs when you are ready to "win now."

So develop your critical mass of young, cost controlled players FIRST, which will tell you precisely what needs you should be spending money to fill and THEN go get your expensive veterans who will then be presumably at their best in the age 29, age 30, age 31, etc. years of their expensive, multiyear contracts.

Throwing money around now - when you are not ready to "win now" because you don't have a critical mass of young, cost controlled players ready to produce - ends up leaving you with more Arenados who you'll be paying too much for in 3, 4, etc. years and limiting your ability to add what you actually need in 2028, 2029, etc.

[2ninr]

Stating Burleson and Herrara are "build arounds" says it all. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Approaching avg one dimensional players is not a foundation for anything.

So what about Winn? Isn't he one dimensional?

He was pretty good offensively in 2024

Yea Masyn had a sophomore slump while dealing with a bad knee. But let's badmouth/ trade the GG 2025 SS. BPOT and not really close. Personally I look forward to him to have a really good year at the plate in 2026. If Wetherholt produces right out of the box and Herrera continues his upward trajectory, they could be a lot of fun to watch.

[2ninr]

I think what they are generally planning to build around right now is:

C/DH - Herrera
1B - Burleson
2B - Wetherholt
SS - Winn

SP - Doyle
SP - Liberatore

and Leahy, Svanson, O'Brien to a lesser degree somewhere in the pitching mix. Maybe Saggese as a bench player.

and then a next-level buy in for:

OF - Josh Baez
C- Bernal/Rodriguez
SP - Mathews
SP/RP - Hence
SP/RP - Franklin

Then you have reclamation projects like Gorman, Walker, maybe Nootbaar that you're not counting but maybe just hoping to get more out of.

Yeah, have to say that is pretty accurate.
[fork]ing rebuild here we come.
Gonna be so exciting.

What is the ******* alternative?!?

We've already watched them try the alternative of slapping band-aid after band-aid on the ML roster for the last decade. And they've got one NLCS trip where they got swept, three first round playoff losses, and a bunch of missed playoffs seasons to show for it.

Is that what we want to continue?!?

Stop acting like there’s only two alternatives.

If someone bought the team and let Bloom spend $180-$200 million, smartly, instead of how mo spent it - you would think he could do a whole lot better. As well as hiring a top 5 manager.

Let me repeat what I've said over and over and over again - yes, they EVENTUALLY will need to spend back at the ~$180 million level in order to be really competitive with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc.

But a big part of spending smartly is (1) defining exactly what needs you should be spending money on and then (2) getting FAs who are still at their peak to fill those needs when you are ready to "win now."

So develop your critical mass of young, cost controlled players FIRST, which will tell you precisely what needs you should be spending money to fill and THEN go get your expensive veterans who will then be presumably at their best in the age 29, age 30, age 31, etc. years of their expensive, multiyear contracts.

Throwing money around now - when you are not ready to "win now" because you don't have a critical mass of young, cost controlled players ready to produce - ends up leaving you with more Arenados who you'll be paying too much for in 3, 4, etc. years and limiting your ability to add what you actually need in 2028, 2029, etc.

Matt, people who want to understand will understand. People who don't will continue to live in the misery of the failures and erosion of the team in these last years. The Cardinals are in the middle of change. Some People hate change. They will continue to complain and insist we are doing it wrong because ownership is cheap. If it takes more than a month for there to be any progress, or if we regress for a period in terms of wins/losses, they will say I told you so. When we start climbing back toward Blooms stated goals, champioship baseball, they will join in like they were behind the change the whole time. It's all good.

[IndCard75]

Out of the current major leaguers the only one I’m building around long term is Winn. Herrera Burly Libby McGreevy are nice pieces at a low cost but aren’t the type you give big long term contracts to imo.
From the minors I believe the following can be solid pieces for the future. Think 2028 and beyond. 2027 could be a lock out year.
JJW he’s the main building block.
Baez
Bernal
Rodriquez
Doyle
Matthews

[woofy25]

Winn #1
Herrera #2
Wetherholt #3
Burleson #4

And the rest at this time is a (bleep) shoot.

What a terrible group to build around. All those guys except maybe wetherholt are guys that fill in around the stars. They are not cornerstone players. I’m glad Winn won a GG, but you don’t build a team around an 8 hitter. Burleson is a very good 6 and Herrera probably a 2 or 5

[Bully4you]

I think what they are generally planning to build around right now is:

C/DH - Herrera
1B - Burleson
2B - Wetherholt
SS - Winn

SP - Doyle
SP - Liberatore

and Leahy, Svanson, O'Brien to a lesser degree somewhere in the pitching mix. Maybe Saggese as a bench player.

and then a next-level buy in for:

OF - Josh Baez
C- Bernal/Rodriguez
SP - Mathews
SP/RP - Hence
SP/RP - Franklin

Then you have reclamation projects like Gorman, Walker, maybe Nootbaar that you're not counting but maybe just hoping to get more out of.

Yeah, have to say that is pretty accurate.
[fork]ing rebuild here we come.
Gonna be so exciting.

What is the ******* alternative?!?

We've already watched them try the alternative of slapping band-aid after band-aid on the ML roster for the last decade. And they've got one NLCS trip where they got swept, three first round playoff losses, and a bunch of missed playoffs seasons to show for it.

Is that what we want to continue?!?

I'm afraid this will become a perpetual rebuild.

[82birds]

I think what they are generally planning to build around right now is:

C/DH - Herrera
1B - Burleson
2B - Wetherholt
SS - Winn

SP - Doyle
SP - Liberatore

and Leahy, Svanson, O'Brien to a lesser degree somewhere in the pitching mix. Maybe Saggese as a bench player.

and then a next-level buy in for:

OF - Josh Baez
C- Bernal/Rodriguez
SP - Mathews
SP/RP - Hence
SP/RP - Franklin

Then you have reclamation projects like Gorman, Walker, maybe Nootbaar that you're not counting but maybe just hoping to get more out of.

well said MM44

[Ronnie Dobbs]

I'm afraid this will become a perpetual rebuild.

Based on what? It's the first time this team has done anything like this since DeWitt bought the team? And that rebuild seemed to work out pretty good for the Cardinals, by the way.

[Carp4Cy]

I think what they are generally planning to build around right now is:

C/DH - Herrera
1B - Burleson
2B - Wetherholt
SS - Winn

SP - Doyle
SP - Liberatore

and Leahy, Svanson, O'Brien to a lesser degree somewhere in the pitching mix. Maybe Saggese as a bench player.

and then a next-level buy in for:

OF - Josh Baez
C- Bernal/Rodriguez
SP - Mathews
SP/RP - Hence
SP/RP - Franklin

Then you have reclamation projects like Gorman, Walker, maybe Nootbaar that you're not counting but maybe just hoping to get more out of.

Yeah, have to say that is pretty accurate.
[fork]ing rebuild here we come.
Gonna be so exciting.

What is the ******* alternative?!?

We've already watched them try the alternative of slapping band-aid after band-aid on the ML roster for the last decade. And they've got one NLCS trip where they got swept, three first round playoff losses, and a bunch of missed playoffs seasons to show for it.

Is that what we want to continue?!?

Stop acting like there’s only two alternatives.

If someone bought the team and let Bloom spend $180-$200 million, smartly, instead of how mo spent it - you would think he could do a whole lot better. As well as hiring a top 5 manager.

Let me repeat what I've said over and over and over again - yes, they EVENTUALLY will need to spend back at the ~$180 million level in order to be really competitive with the Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, etc.

But a big part of spending smartly is (1) defining exactly what needs you should be spending money on and then (2) getting FAs who are still at their peak to fill those needs when you are ready to "win now."

So develop your critical mass of young, cost controlled players FIRST, which will tell you precisely what needs you should be spending money to fill and THEN go get your expensive veterans who will then be presumably at their best in the age 29, age 30, age 31, etc. years of their expensive, multiyear contracts.

Throwing money around now - when you are not ready to "win now" because you don't have a critical mass of young, cost controlled players ready to produce - ends up leaving you with more Arenados who you'll be paying too much for in 3, 4, etc. years and limiting your ability to add what you actually need in 2028, 2029, etc.

We will always need plus outfielders and starters. Tatis for example is an available now but he won’t be available in 2028. Yamamato was available in 2023 or whatever year but isn’t now or ever again id bet. There are others available this year. Sometimes you need to strike when the player is available or lose your chance. There’s no way you can achieve 100% roster efficiency in Major league baseball like you’re trying to do in theory. There are pros and cons of trying it your way and you’re ignoring the potential cons that we will encounter.

You also have to become good at trading a fourth year player at a position that’s redundant for a fourth year player at a position of need, the old-fashioned one for one swap. We haven’t seen too many of those in a long time (except for Fedde, which we should probably forget about)