sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑10 Nov 2025 06:55 am
I actually read the whole thing. A nice write. All this trouble simply due to- bad signings thus rotting infrastructure. Or rotting infrastructure leading to bad signings/extentions.
Yeah, I think there was a definite domino effect.
IMO, it started with ownership being unwilling to decide soon enough that after 15 or so years of success the organization might need to take a breather to really "reload" the right way for long term success.
That led to bad signing/extension/trade decisions being made to "band aid" the ML roster.
And when some/many of those signing/extension/trade decisions ended up being bad, their lack of organizational depth (which was impacted by those trades, etc.) coming up through the minors got exposed.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑09 Nov 2025 20:57 pm
Did DeWitt tie the front office's hands with payroll demands that were unrealistic in building a winner?
Or did Mozeliak just suck at building legitimate roster?
Was it DeWitt being cheap? Was it Mozeliak being a putz?
I'm asking a serious question. Who was the REAL problem?
Either scenario leads back to Mo.
Case in point: the Fowler signing or the Ozuna trade have nothing to do with tightening payroll.
The Ozuna trade was actually a good trade as lauded by many on CT. No one on here had a problem with it at the time. The Cardinals traded 4 minor league prospects for a MOTO bat who had slashed .312/.376/.548/.924 in 2017 with Miami. He had 37 home runs and 124 RBI. Was 26 years old and an All Star in both 2016 and 2017.
You: "CT liked it."
Me: Who cares? CTers have no insights into players.
You: Ozuna had .924 OPS in 2017.
Me: Yeah, and look at his stats in previous years. He ended his Marlins tenure w a .786 OPS. So he was obviously playing above his weight.
But even if Ozuna was the real deal. You are trading two really good cost controlled arms for a two year rental.
It all comes down to talent evaluation...
Ozuna wasn't a terrible player for the Cardinals and he's had some good years after he left as well. The problem was he was lazy and a thug and not the lind of guy the Cardinals wanted to keep around. That was the mistake. If you're going to give away talent for a player, you had better be certain he is a guy you want to extend. Ozuna wasn't.
They were also one bat short that year. Same as most years under the late Mozeliak years. They never finished their rosters fully - always leaving a gaping hole or too many question marks heading into the season.
Ozuna wasn't horrible.
What was horrible was his trade. If the Cards don't make that trade, the team from 2019-2024 would be so much different.
Yes, it turned out to be an awful trade. Miami had 3 OFers and we got stuck with the worst one.
sikeston bulldog2 wrote: ↑10 Nov 2025 06:55 am
I actually read the whole thing. A nice write. All this trouble simply due to- bad signings thus rotting infrastructure. Or rotting infrastructure leading to bad signings/extentions.
Yeah, I think there was a definite domino effect.
IMO, it started with ownership being unwilling to decide soon enough that after 15 or so years of success the organization might need to take a breather to really "reload" the right way for long term success.
That led to bad signing/extension/trade decisions being made to "band aid" the ML roster.
And when some/many of those signing/extension/trade decisions ended up being bad, their lack of organizational depth (which was impacted by those trades, etc.) coming up through the minors got exposed.
Your last paragraph is well thought out. You say- so many went wrong- exactly. Had a couple went right, different narrative. Nice catch.
Then both trading from the farm and its erosion, left no normal depth. Seems if both sides of a system erodes, the entire complex may collapse.
Many seem to forget that Cardinals first pursued Christian Yelich from the Marlins. Mo , and other teams, felt Yelich was MOTO bat and better long term than Ozuna. Marlins kept telling Mo Yelich was unavailable for they really wanted to trade Ozuna first.
Mo bought into Marlins subterfuge and backed off Yelich and dealt for Ozuna. Just a few weeks later Brewers swooped in and traded for Yelich. (He became mvp in 2018) . Mo realized he had been ‘played’ by Marlins and got duped .
So that trade really flipped things in NL Central as Brewers took over division .
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑09 Nov 2025 20:57 pm
Did DeWitt tie the front office's hands with payroll demands that were unrealistic in building a winner?
Or did Mozeliak just suck at building legitimate roster?
Was it DeWitt being cheap? Was it Mozeliak being a putz?
I'm asking a serious question. Who was the REAL problem?
Either scenario leads back to Mo.
Case in point: the Fowler signing or the Ozuna trade have nothing to do with tightening payroll.
The Ozuna trade was actually a good trade as lauded by many on CT. No one on here had a problem with it at the time. The Cardinals traded 4 minor league prospects for a MOTO bat who had slashed .312/.376/.548/.924 in 2017 with Miami. He had 37 home runs and 124 RBI. Was 26 years old and an All Star in both 2016 and 2017.
It was a good trade on paper but resulted in a disaster. His bat was not what was needed. Ironically the year before and after he left it was very good. His defense was absolutely terrible especially considering he won a gold glove previously. I don’t blame Mo for the trade. I blame Ozuna who may be my least favorite Cardinal of all time.
Mo lost his fastball years ago and "wasted" the payroll money (bad FA signings, stupid extensions, ignoring the minor league system, ect...) BDWJr gave him.
Should've been fired many years ago but Dewitt got lazy and kept him on as long as 3+M were coming thru the turnstile and the money was flowing.
So the answer, and I started multiple threads over the last five years, is that BDWJr was the Real problem!
Why?
Because he could've fired Mo years ago and ended his reign on ineptitude.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑09 Nov 2025 20:57 pm
Did DeWitt tie the front office's hands with payroll demands that were unrealistic in building a winner?
Or did Mozeliak just suck at building legitimate roster?
Was it DeWitt being cheap? Was it Mozeliak being a putz?
I'm asking a serious question. Who was the REAL problem?
The REAL problem is that John Mozeliak whizzed away close to $ 450,000,000 of DeWitt’s money on failed FA contracts and stupid extensions to players on the downswing.
Despite people like Cranny who continue to tell us that overall Mozeliak was great, the fact is the damage Mozeliak caused to the Cardinals cannot be overstated.
Dewitt bears the responsibility for not firing Mozeliak much sooner than he did, but I’ll always believe HackGate resulted in Mozeliak being untouchable. What other sane reason would cause an employer to hang on to someone who blew that kind of Company money?
Has it occurred to anyone that the end game, where we are right now, is just what they expected would happen eventually? They kept the 3million clicks rolling thru with smoke and mirrors as long as they could patch it together. It hit bottom. All the stars are gone and here we are. Time to rebuild.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑09 Nov 2025 20:57 pm
Did DeWitt tie the front office's hands with payroll demands that were unrealistic in building a winner?
Or did Mozeliak just suck at building legitimate roster?
Was it DeWitt being cheap? Was it Mozeliak being a putz?
I'm asking a serious question. Who was the REAL problem?
Either scenario leads back to Mo.
Case in point: the Fowler signing or the Ozuna trade have nothing to do with tightening payroll.
The Ozuna trade was actually a good trade as lauded by many on CT. No one on here had a problem with it at the time. The Cardinals traded 4 minor league prospects for a MOTO bat who had slashed .312/.376/.548/.924 in 2017 with Miami. He had 37 home runs and 124 RBI. Was 26 years old and an All Star in both 2016 and 2017.
You: "CT liked it."
Me: Who cares? CTers have no insights into players.
You: Ozuna had .924 OPS in 2017.
Me: Yeah, and look at his stats in previous years. He ended his Marlins tenure w a .786 OPS. So he was obviously playing above his weight.
But even if Ozuna was the real deal. You are trading two really good cost controlled arms for a two year rental.
It all comes down to talent evaluation...
Mozeliak’s talent evaluation and spending decisions were both horrific AND he allowed the organization to fall behind developmentally.
He heavily pursued David Price but didn’t offer Scherzer
He tried to acquire Giancarlo Stanton but didn’t engage Bryce Harper
He’d pay back end starters but not front end. They weren’t in the conversation for either Kevin Gausman or Zach Wheeler, but paid Mike Leake, Miles Mikolas, Steven Matz… and gave up long reliever contracts to Cecil and Miller.
nighthawk wrote: ↑10 Nov 2025 07:27 am
A talent eval impairment, like the early 1970s, has been the real problem.
Seems they acquire and develop talent quite well; it’s seeing its young value and keeping the right young players that is the challenge.
In the late 60s and early 70s, it was they developed and acquired young talent and failed to evaluate and optimize its potential. See the careers of....
Carlton
Reuss
Cuellar
Torrez
McBride
Jose Cruz
Carbo
Denny
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑09 Nov 2025 20:57 pm
Did DeWitt tie the front office's hands with payroll demands that were unrealistic in building a winner?
Or did Mozeliak just suck at building legitimate roster?
Was it DeWitt being cheap? Was it Mozeliak being a putz?
I'm asking a serious question. Who was the REAL problem?
The REAL problem is that John Mozeliak whizzed away close to $ 450,000,000 of DeWitt’s money on failed FA contracts and stupid extensions to players on the downswing.
Despite people like Cranny who continue to tell us that overall Mozeliak was great, the fact is the damage Mozeliak caused to the Cardinals cannot be overstated.
Dewitt bears the responsibility for not firing Mozeliak much sooner than he did, but I’ll always believe HackGate resulted in Mozeliak being untouchable. What other sane reason would cause an employer to hang on to someone who blew that kind of Company money?
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑09 Nov 2025 20:57 pm
Did DeWitt tie the front office's hands with payroll demands that were unrealistic in building a winner?
Or did Mozeliak just suck at building legitimate roster?
Was it DeWitt being cheap? Was it Mozeliak being a putz?
I'm asking a serious question. Who was the REAL problem?
The REAL problem is that John Mozeliak whizzed away close to $ 450,000,000 of DeWitt’s money on failed FA contracts and stupid extensions to players on the downswing.
Despite people like Cranny who continue to tell us that overall Mozeliak was great, the fact is the damage Mozeliak caused to the Cardinals cannot be overstated.
Dewitt bears the responsibility for not firing Mozeliak much sooner than he did, but I’ll always believe HackGate resulted in Mozeliak being untouchable. What other sane reason would cause an employer to hang on to someone who blew that kind of Company money?
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑09 Nov 2025 20:57 pm
Did DeWitt tie the front office's hands with payroll demands that were unrealistic in building a winner?
Or did Mozeliak just suck at building legitimate roster?
Was it DeWitt being cheap? Was it Mozeliak being a putz?
I'm asking a serious question. Who was the REAL problem?
Either scenario leads back to Mo.
Case in point: the Fowler signing or the Ozuna trade have nothing to do with tightening payroll.
The Ozuna trade was actually a good trade as lauded by many on CT. No one on here had a problem with it at the time. The Cardinals traded 4 minor league prospects for a MOTO bat who had slashed .312/.376/.548/.924 in 2017 with Miami. He had 37 home runs and 124 RBI. Was 26 years old and an All Star in both 2016 and 2017.
Saying people didn’t have concerns is incorrect. There were some not on board with it.
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑09 Nov 2025 20:57 pm
Did DeWitt tie the front office's hands with payroll demands that were unrealistic in building a winner?
Or did Mozeliak just suck at building legitimate roster?
Was it DeWitt being cheap? Was it Mozeliak being a putz?
I'm asking a serious question. Who was the REAL problem?
The REAL problem is that John Mozeliak whizzed away close to $ 450,000,000 of DeWitt’s money on failed FA contracts and stupid extensions to players on the downswing.
Despite people like Cranny who continue to tell us that overall Mozeliak was great, the fact is the damage Mozeliak caused to the Cardinals cannot be overstated.
Dewitt bears the responsibility for not firing Mozeliak much sooner than he did, but I’ll always believe HackGate resulted in Mozeliak being untouchable. What other sane reason would cause an employer to hang on to someone who blew that kind of Company money?
JuanAgosto wrote: ↑09 Nov 2025 20:57 pm
Did DeWitt tie the front office's hands with payroll demands that were unrealistic in building a winner?
Or did Mozeliak just suck at building legitimate roster?
Was it DeWitt being cheap? Was it Mozeliak being a putz?
I'm asking a serious question. Who was the REAL problem?
The REAL problem is that John Mozeliak whizzed away close to $ 450,000,000 of DeWitt’s money on failed FA contracts and stupid extensions to players on the downswing.
Despite people like Cranny who continue to tell us that overall Mozeliak was great, the fact is the damage Mozeliak caused to the Cardinals cannot be overstated.
Dewitt bears the responsibility for not firing Mozeliak much sooner than he did, but I’ll always believe HackGate resulted in Mozeliak being untouchable. What other sane reason would cause an employer to hang on to someone who blew that kind of Company money?
You must have really liked my post Cranny since you quoted it not once but twice, without providing a response.
